[SPOILER] New ending Mitch and Panam

[swgs]

New ending to main story brought so many thoughts but there is one that is boggling me: Panam ragequitting from relationship with V, even tough she supported him going for cure if there is a chance. So my thoughts are that Mitch was this whole time in love with Panam but she always seen him as close friend and nothing more.
Isn't that strange that whenever Panam does or goes even with V, Mitch always show up and supports her without any question like puppy in love?

Now when V is away Mitch is in relationship with her and told her bullshit about V being dead, then he lied to V about Panam being mad.
So V didn't got screwed by Panam at all, but by Mitch who is real snake among Aldecados.

 

[tavellone]

I don't know why people get this impression. There's nothing in the relationship between Mitch and panam to suggest there's any romantic interest either way and it isn't true that Mitch shows up and supports Panam without question, when you first meet him he literally refuses to help her. My impression of Mitch's call to V was that he felt awkward about calling V because he is generally a nice guy and is a friend of V and also doesn't want to have to deal with Panam's reaction if V keeps contacting her.

In any case the real answer is that the ending in relation to male V and Panam's is bullshit and badly written.

 

[ChiliDragon]

I don't know why people get this impression. There's nothing in the relationship between Mitch and panam to suggest there's any romantic interest either way and it isn't true that Mitch shows up and supports Panam without question, when you first meet him he literally refuses to help her. My impression of Mitch's call to V was that he felt awkward about calling V because he is generally a nice guy and is a friend of V and also doesn't want to have to deal with Panam's reaction if V keeps contacting her.

In any case the real answer is that the ending in relation to male V and Panam's is bullshit and badly written.

Yep. Occam's Razor. Bullshit, shoed in bad writing to justify an overly harsh ending that in the process completely rewrites Panam's entire character on the fly.

 

[Schachmatt222]

Once you find a way, tell me and I'll help you.

Not - Once you find a way, don't tell me, lie about your plans, execute the way without sharing it with me and then go off the radar without letting me know what's going on.

V doesn't trust Panam with her decision. Not that I like it, but that's why Panam act this way. V choose Reed over her family.

 

[ChiliDragon]

Once you find a way, tell me and I'll help you.

Not - Once you find a way, don't tell me, lie about your plans, execute the way without sharing it with me and then go off the radar without letting me know what's going on.

V doesn't trust Panam with her decision. Not that I like it, but that's why Panam act this way. V choose Reed over her family.

Not true. V has the option to text her. Just the way he does it is vague af. And because it is what Reed tells him the recovery timeline will be, gives her bad information. But even then, it's just bad writing by CDPR on how the text is written. V could have easily written that he's going into surgery, that the expected timeline to recovery is up to a month, but it is extremely risky, intrusive and experimental. Boom. Delay explained. Or, the CDPR writers could have had Reed contact a person or two and explain what was going on.

Barring any of that, it STILL doesn't change the fact that her reaction to him being in a coma is flat stupid and inconsistent with how her character is written in so many other places. Things go wrong during surgeries. In this case, they went massively wrong. But the "I was in a coma" bit should be explanation enough to at least get a hearing.

And even if not with her, with some of the other Aldecados. For example, maybe with Bob since you saved his son Jake's life.

In all honesty, this ending felt like the writers wanted to punish the players for not being self-sacrificing enough to try and find a way to keep Johnny alive or helping Songbird at all costs despite finding out that she manipulated and lied to you all along.

The writers WANTED V to have another depressing as hell ending, despite a lot of people calling for ONE "V wins against the odds" ending, and so they made it happen. For some, that's fine. "That's a part of the genre" or whatever. (Which is itself wrong. Plenty of other people get happy endings.)

For me, the writers being unwilling to give ANY way to win against the odds in this game no matter which quests you do or which choices you make, genuinely makes playing the game feel pretty pointless.

 

[MartineDee]

I watched it. I perceive good intent from Mitch and take it on its face value. After all, V only needs a phone call to Panam to blow up lies like that. But, if Panam isn't picking up, then what Mitch says makes sense.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

In all honesty, this ending felt like the writers wanted to punish the players for not being self-sacrificing enough to try and find a way to keep Johnny alive or helping Songbird at all costs despite finding out that she manipulated and lied to you all along.

Or it's just because you decided to side with a corpo, so no matter what it couldn't end well... I don't say it's well done/written, but it just can't end well in any way, like in the devil ending
(something which was predictable^^)

 

[MartineDee]

Ah yes, I forgot. Aldecaldos are pretty much straightforward folks. That also plays a role when hearing things from them.

 

[Schachmatt222]

Not true. V has the option to text her. Just the way he does it is vague af. And because it is what Reed tells him the recovery timeline will be, gives her bad information.

Actually, it is true. Not saying that I like it, but that's what's happening. V informs their friends via text about a "few days out of town" and not informing them about the true motive, as Reed orders V to be discrete. That's a no go for Panam. As I said before, V choose Reed (FIA) over Panam and the Aldecaldos.

 

[ShaniForever]

I'll just that ending felt like a downer. Given how much V did for all their friends and acquaintances, they should be read to die for. Not playing 5 year old angry over eating a vegetables.
Really bad writing with some storylines in this game. As much as CDPR did good with Witcher 3, they dropped ball with Cyberpunk.

 

[ChiliDragon]

Or it's just because you decided to side with a corpo, so no matter what it couldn't end well... I don't say it's well done/written, but it just can't end well in any way, like in the devil ending
(something which was predictable^^)

Now, to me that is kinda "meta gaming" tbh.

Which, is that really how you want your players to play your game? Or do you want them to be looking at the facts that are in front of your V in that moment and acting how the character might act...and expecting that the other characters in the game would react like how they have been written so far and not plot contrivances?

If you're trying to "second guess what the developers want to shoe horn in" then, sure, it opens up all manner of ways that things would play out that way.

But it doesn't make it less transparently BS.

Because in actuality what you're saying is that Panam should decide to abandon V in this situation...why exactly? Because he decided after siding with Songbird and finding out she'd been lying to him and manipulating him to his death all along that she was no longer worth saving and therefore giving her up to Reed for the promise of a cure, which would allow him to return to Panam and helping the Aldecados as he always had previously?

Like, wtf are we even talking about here? V siding with a corpo? Huh? He sold a traitor out to get cured and the surgery had complications. And because of that Panam never wants to speak with V again.

This is IN NO WAY a reasonably predictable outcome unless you're mind reading the developer never wanting V to have a happy ending if he commits one even slightly non-Paladin mildly morally gray choice.

Post automatically merged: Nov 3, 2023

Actually, it is true. Not saying that I like it, but that's what's happening. V informs their friends via text about a "few days out of town" and not informing them about the true motive, as Reed orders V to be discrete. That's a no go for Panam. As I said before, V choose Reed (FIA) over Panam and the Aldecaldos.

No, he did not. The writing of the text message made it seem that way.

In no reasonable way should that text have been that vague and that stupid of V.

"I've been offered a chance for a full cure but I can't give you the full details as a contingency of the offer. I did a favor for the FIA to get this possibility. Again, can't divulge details. I'm told that the likely recovery timeline is upwards of a month, but who knows if that is right or not because nobody's ever had to try and do this surgery before. I love you and I'll be back as soon as I can."

Boom. Discrete. Reveals nothing at all that would at all put either Reed or the FIA in a bad place. No national security implications whatsoever. But conveys what Panam needs to know.

V didn't choose squat over Panam. The writers were like stupid sitcom writers who force misunderstandings due to withholding details to force a storyline.

 

[Mr. Newmark]

Well I am out of the loop if two can some one explain this new ending to me much obliged

Post automatically merged: Nov 3, 2023

Oh and emoji emoji was accidentally

Post automatically merged: Nov 3, 2023

Meaning no 2.0 played so far but I love spoilers

Post automatically merged: Nov 3, 2023

Feel free to msg me I like to make a fresh playthrough this time male V Always did female V for voice actress

 

[Schachmatt222]

No, he did not. The writing of the text message made it seem that way.

In no reasonable way should that text have been that vague and that stupid of V.

"I've been offered a chance for a full cure but I can't give you the full details as a contingency of the offer. I did a favor for the FIA to get this possibility. Again, can't divulge details. I'm told that the likely recovery timeline is upwards of a month, but who knows if that is right or not because nobody's ever had to try and do this surgery before. I love you and I'll be back as soon as I can."

Boom. Discrete. Reveals nothing at all that would at all put either Reed or the FIA in a bad place. No national security implications whatsoever. But conveys what Panam needs to know.

V didn't choose squat over Panam. The writers were like stupid sitcom writers who force misunderstandings due to withholding details to force a storyline.

Ah, I see. But we are not discussing your headcanon here. In the game V did not inform Panam properly. That's a fact. That fact also sucks, yeah.

 

[ChiliDragon]

Ah, I see. But we are not discussing your headcanon here. In the game V did not inform Panam properly. That's a fact. That fact also sucks, yeah.

Our comments are not mutually exclusive. MY point is that the writing shoehorned V into carrying an Idiot Ball to dictate a certain ending that makes zero sense.

On the basic facts of what happened, sure, yeah, the text that V was dictated to write by the CDPR writers (who, I will note, did not give you any sort of meaningful options on what sort of text to send...no option to inform Panam properly) was basically setup to find a way to justify an ending where Panam dumps him and cuts off contact completely. And she reacts completely the same no matter what, no matter if you leave a voice mail saying that you've been in a coma as V.

So, let's stipulate for a second that you're completely right. V did not inform Panam properly. There's absolutely no reason WHY he wouldn't have other than CDPR wanted to shoehorn a particular outcome and take away all agency from the player to dictate an ending...but FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT...let's stipulate. V did not inform Panam properly.

Voice Mail: "I've been in a coma for the last two years after the surgery. I'm so sorry."
Panam: Ignores that completely and sends Mitch out to tell V to eff off.

There's no way that the actions of either V or Panam make any sort of sense whatsoever on their merits unless you're a writer dictating a certain ending regardless of what the characters would do. Idiot Ball writing for an Idiot Plot to dictate an outcome regardless of any form of player agency.

 

[Schachmatt222]

Voice Mail: "I've been in a coma for the last two years after the surgery. I'm so sorry."
Panam: Ignores that completely and sends Mitch out to tell V to eff off.

There's no way that the actions of either V or Panam make any sort of sense whatsoever on their merits unless you're a writer dictating a certain ending regardless of what the characters would do. Idiot Ball writing for an Idiot Plot to dictate an outcome regardless of any form of player agency.

I guess we have to agree to disagree on that one, then. Fwiw, i'm totally with you that it shoudn't have happened the way it happened.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

This is IN NO WAY a reasonably predictable outcome unless you're mind reading the developer never wanting V to have a happy ending if he commits one even slightly non-Paladin mildly morally gray choice.

You can go back in time on the forum, a year ago (maybe more^^), when they announced the expansion, I already said that if the expansion add a new/alternative ending, it won't be a "good/happy" ending anyway... Good/Happy ending that many hoped for. To me, locking an "good/happy" ending behind a paid content would have been a very bad idea.

Beside, lore wise, corpo are evil, so no matter what, like the Devil ending, siding with NUSA/Militech couldn't end well... To quote Jackie "pacto con el diablo" or Johnny "corpos always win, normal people always loose". So again, don't expect a "good/happy" ending in which V would find a cure and would return living an happy life with the Aldecaldos...

After again, I didn't say it's well done nor well written... But sad/shitty ending was something to expect with Myers/Militech/NUSA involved, anyway.
I think currently, it lack reasons why Panam don't want to talk to V... Personally I would add few explanations in Mitch call, like :
"After your message, Militech found us and assaulted our camp. Half of the familiy died. Saul, Cassidy, Carol and Bobby died too. Wee fled as we can, but after crossing the border, the familly exploded and didn't really survived. Panam lived it very badly and it toke her almost two years to finally been a bit better. You would remind her too much bad memories that she try to forget, so sorry V but she don't want to talk to you."

 

[BigWezz69]

Personally I wouldn't use headcanon to minimise sloppy writing on CDPR's behalf.

Who on earth signed off on Panam being mad at V, even though her family/clan are alive because of V.

She should have been happy for V.

Ridiculous writing imo.

 

[ChiliDragon]

You can go back in time on the forum, a year ago (maybe more^^), when they announced the expansion, I already said that if the expansion add a new/alternative ending, it won't be a "good/happy" ending anyway... Good/Happy ending that many hoped for. To me, locking an "good/happy" ending behind a paid content would have been a very bad idea.

Beside, lore wise, corpo are evil, so no matter what, like the Devil ending, siding with NUSA/Militech couldn't end well... To quote Jackie "pacto con el diablo" or Johnny "corpos always win, normal people always loose". So again, don't expect a "good/happy" ending in which V would find a cure and would return living an happy life with the Aldecaldos...

After again, I didn't say it's well done nor well written... But sad/shitty ending was something to expect with Myers/Militech/NUSA involved, anyway.
I think currently, it lack reasons why Panam don't want to talk to V... Personally I would add few explanations in Mitch call, like :
"After your message, Militech found us and assaulted our camp. Half of the familiy died. Saul, Cassidy, Carol and Bobby died too. Wee fled as we can, but after crossing the border, the familly exploded and didn't really survived. Panam lived it very badly and it toke her almost two years to finally been a bit better. You would remind her too much bad memories that she try to forget, so sorry V but she don't want to talk to you."

I really don't think we disagree to much except on one kinda key point.

The way that the choice is presented in game, you have to be meta gaming to assume the outcome. Basically you have to start from the position "the developers believe X (that EVER making a corpo based choice is the wrong one) and therefore regardless of what the IN GAME facts are, you should keep that in mind".

What I mean by that is that "in game", by the point you make the choice, Reed's been straight with you the entire time. Songbird has been lying to you the entire time.

There's no logical reason why someone would side with Songbird at that point. Selfishly, it gets you absolutely nothing personally. You now know siding with her will not only not cure you, but make you a powerful, vengeful enemy (NUSA)...for what? For someone who has lied to you and manipulated you every step of the way? Morally...she has deliberately and pre-meditatedly murdered hundreds of innocent people and is someone who is losing her mind bit by bit and if she loses it completely could end the entire human race by accident by causing a breach in the Blackwall? This is something that becomes progressively more likely the closer she gets to death.

What rational reason is there on either a personal or intellectual level to still side with her?

And that is, again, why I consider this ending to be bad writing. You can predict it if, AND ONLY IF, you're relying on meta-gaming...outside knowledge similar to what you outlined in your post above. "The devs have decided that siding with the corpos is always wrong. Period. And will punish you if you do."

The "in-game" knowledge that you have all suggests the opposite choice...and then the meta game punishes you for going against what is, in effect, the author's pet.

This applies to the Panam situation as well. Justifying that outcome REQUIRES us to theorize facts that are simply not in evidence in the game's script. Certainly, if we do as you suggest and introduce some other explanation, it can be made to make more sense. But if your audience has to make up facts for your story or your character's actions to make sense, then your story and characters AS WRITTEN make no sense.

 

[CS554]

You can go back in time on the forum, a year ago (maybe more^^), when they announced the expansion, I already said that if the expansion add a new/alternative ending, it won't be a "good/happy" ending anyway... Good/Happy ending that many hoped for. To me, locking an "good/happy" ending behind a paid content would have been a very bad idea.

So much this, I find it difficult to understand why people don't appear to take this into account.

Beside, lore wise, corpo are evil, so no matter what, like the Devil ending, siding with NUSA/Militech couldn't end well... To quote Jackie "pacto con el diablo" or Johnny "corpos always win, normal people always loose". So again, don't expect a "good/happy" ending in which V would find a cure and would return living an happy life with the Aldecaldos...

Where you get that? Blackhand siding with Militech on 2023 didn't end badly for him AFAIK. There is a difference between siding with a faction and becoming a member or corpo. Besides NUSA, even though utterly corrupted is still government even when the line between public institution and Militech is very blurry.

The worst thing about dystopia like this tends to be how they on their own way make sense. It's not about some magical force which cause something bad to happen if character decides to side with corpo or something, but that organizations run by sociopaths and people in very difficult situation like V, literally dying, is difficult mix. Arasaka in the Devil ending is able to take advantage of that once they decide they won't use anymore resources (grow a clone) to V and use that to make deal about becoming their property (Relic) more appealing.

Nusa holding up their end of the deal is huge win in these settings. V making deals to _survive_ isn't but that, pretty much like Sam Spade in Dashiell Hammett's stories making deals with every faction that helps him getting his job done. People moving on, is just that, people moving on.

After again, I didn't say it's well done nor well written... But sad/shitty ending was something to expect with Myers/Militech/NUSA involved, anyway.
I think currently, it lack reasons why Panam don't want to talk to V... Personally I would add few explanations in Mitch call, like :
"After your message, Militech found us and assaulted our camp. Half of the familiy died. Saul, Cassidy, Carol and Bobby died too. Wee fled as we can, but after crossing the border, the familly exploded and didn't really survived. Panam lived it very badly and it toke her almost two years to finally been a bit better. You would remind her too much bad memories that she try to forget, so sorry V but she don't want to talk to you."

For me all things considered, I think they did pretty well. It's very close to how Bruce Sterling's Islands in the Net, one of the originals, 1988 cyberpunk novel ends. I don't think philosophy behind that game ending is exactly the same, but I think book was inspiration.

Game ending is IMO much more about the point of view. I don't feel they are shitty. V is young, lot's of options ahead of V. How this V's situation that different from other young adults who move from their home to university, or go to military service or whatever to other places and then come back and notice that other people have also moved on with their studies and careers, life in general, living in other places and such.

So there are new things in Panam's life, well then it's time for V to go, their new things to their life as well. That is not shitty, that is not terrible, that is just life.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

There's no logical reason why someone would side with Songbird at that point. Selfishly, it gets you absolutely nothing personally. You now know siding with her will not only not cure you, but make you a powerful, vengeful enemy (NUSA)...for what? For someone who has lied to you and manipulated you every step of the way? Morally...she has deliberately and pre-meditatedly murdered hundreds of innocent people and is someone who is losing her mind bit by bit and if she loses it completely could end the entire human race by accident by causing a breach in the Blackwall? This is something that becomes progressively more likely the closer she gets to death.

Ok, I guess I need to add some infos here

For what reason do you think Songbird pierced the black wall?
Not for her own sake that's for sure... Songbird did it because Myers order her to do it. In the same way as Myers ordered her to "betray" Reed years before (something that has haunted her ever since).

So why does she die?
Because she pierced the black wall, following Myers order. So if someone risked the life of everyone on the planet by piercing the black wall, it's Myers and the NUSA, not Songbird.

Why she planned the whole shity crash?
Because for Myers and by consequences the NUSA, Songbird is a atomic bomb for them... She the living proof that by piercing the black wall, Myers and NUSA broke the international laws. Which can lead to another corpo war, but it would be the world vs NUSA. A war they sure will loose.
Myers keep a leach and a close look on her. Songbird don't have any other solution to get out, NUSA and Myers would never let her go (alive).
Either she keep doing what Myers order and die, either she try to escape, even with a shity plan...

Why did Songbird lie to V?
The same reason as V lied to Hanako. Hanako reveal you everything she know about Mikoshi because V agreed to help her... so except if you followed the Devil ending, V "lied" to Hanako too and at the end, she die because V didn't help her.

In my point of view, there are no reason to side with Myers/NUSA either
Yes, Songbird lied to V, Yes she killed people... But what do you think Myers will do if she get her hands on Songbird? She will simply stop what she did, she will become a "nice" president and will be respectful of the laws. No, she won't.... She specially asked to Reed to keep her head intact for a good reason... Continue her evil schemes and keep using the black wall as a weapon.

So again, nothing is full white or black here. But if you ask me and for what I gathered in the expansion, Songbird is the lesser evil compared to Myers/NUSA and by far. Again, depend of the angle you see it, but Myers will continue to pierce the black wall risking everyone's lives with impunity and without accountability to anyone. Something which won't happen if you send Songbird on the moon, so you possibly save more lifes than if you side with Myers. To quote the Slider (VDB dude) : "If they break the black wall, we're all doomed!!!"

Where you get that? Blackhand siding with Militech on 2023 didn't end badly for him AFAIK.

Not that familiar with Blackhand "history", so correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know what he really become.
He's alive? He work for Militech since? He fled? He's dead?
As far as I know, his fate is "unknown" until now
And even if he's alive, like Rogue he would be the exception... Everybody else involved in the assault and at the Atlantis were "exterminated".