Scoia'tael bronze cards desperately need a buff

[Celadyl]

So I'm back to playing scoia at the moment, mainly bc of the gaunter challenge but also bc ST is my favorite faction from a lore and flavour side of things. after playing wild hunt, skellige and even NR for a bit I noticed something (that I already knew tbh)... ST bronzes are horrendously bad, especially in the 4P area.
the new dryad enchantress is really strong and in line with the general power creep this game is experiencing (again) but most of the roster is utter unplayable garbage.

ofc I'm not only complaining but have some suggestions for buffs, feedback welcome.

Scoia'tael Neophyte: make it a 4power card with effect: if you control at least 5 elves, spawn a copy of itself into the other row. this makes it a decent swarm cashout card (the only thing elves are good for atm) that can rival cards like mahakam guard and other swarm profiting cards, while having an advanced yet reachable condition. could also work as a 3 power with an easier condition, but it would still feel underwhelming imo.
alternatively: if there is an elf on this row, spawn 2 copies of this unit into random allied rows (or this row), similar to congregation.

Elven Wardancer: change to 4 power: deal 1 damage. devotion: deal 3 damage. just another regular 7 for 4 devotion card which I think are a nice addition, changing this card from a never used to a decent one.

Hawker healer: devotion: heal an allied unit by 4 and boost it by 2 (basically combine effects)

Farseer: reveal a random card from your deck, if it's a special card, boost self by 4. the potential 2 boost on this card are barely worth the disadvantage of showing parts of your deck to the opponent. the design of this card is inherently bad, but in spellatael it could be usable then.

Dwarvan Agitator: honestly just make this 4power and boost dwarf in hand by 2. a conditional 6 for 4 like most of the other bronzes by now.

Dol Blathanna Bomber: could honestly be 2 or even 3 power and damage 2 random units by 2. the random aspect of this card make points very unreliable anyway, so it could in some cases be a 7 for 4. in current patch, this can easily be a 1 for 4 in some matchups.

Vrihedd Officer: change effect to (melee) boost adjacent elves by 2.

vriheed sapper: needs atleast 4 power and boost elf in hand by 2. even then its not good as there is almost no handbuff synergy for elves. might be too strong at 5 power, honestly the card should just be changed altogether. currently, with wardancer these 2 cards combo as 11 for 9prov. is that good? no, it's not.

CDPR will probably never read this but I still felt like giving some feedback in the hopes of something.

 

[Barracuda88]

Good suggestions, although I don't really see CDPR getting to work on changing a dozen garbage ST bronzes. Who would buy new expansions if old cards suddenly became decent? Also, a lot of those cards are for "starter" decks like vigor and GT, which are probably kept intentionally bad.

 

[Celadyl]

Good suggestions, although I don't really see CDPR getting to work on changing a dozen garbage ST bronzes. Who would buy new expansions if old cards suddenly became decent? Also, a lot of those cards are for "starter" decks like vigor and GT, which are probably kept intentionally bad.

I mean I know I'm talking to a wall here, I just felt like thinking about some changes. I'm always excited for the expansions but it often feels like the old archetypes are just completely left behind every time. imagine playing gwent where there is 5+ working archetypes for each faction. they dont all need to be tier 1 but old archetypes are continually nerfed to the ground or just forgotten. I'm not a programmer, so I dont want to trash talk the work behind this game but I feel like tweaking numbers cant be that hard, why do we get a new expansion after 3 months of nothing that has hardly any changes except some wording?

 

[plastiq33]

I was just mentioning in the harmony thread that giving a few of the crappy ST bronzes harmony would be a good way buff both them and the harmony archetype. Unfortunately I don't think it makes sense for most of the elf or dwarf cards.

They did a few buffs to the ST bronze cards last patch so its not hopeless that they will be looking at these cards.

 

[ya1]

Dwarvan Agitator: honestly just make this 4power and boost dwarf in hand by 2. a conditional 6 for 4 like most of the other bronzes by now.

I'd love that. Might be slightly op as it'd be 8 for 4 with 4 carryover but why the hell not. They made Greatswords have 10 base power last patch after all and gave SK one of the best new leaders. And Agitators are only usable with Sheldon who won't see R1 half of the time. There are stronger conditional RNG cards that that.

And carryover decks desperately need a fighting chance in R1. Too much last say abuse these days.

 

[Smith_X]

I agreed with those buffs.

I have been thinking for a while about ST. The other weak spots in ST now in my opinion are:
- harmony is not that strong now. it was strong because of Water of Brokilon and Mystic Echo. Without Mystic Echo, I feel the WoB provision should be less. Next, the harmony packages seem lack behind when other bronze in Master Mirror and recent patch buffs several cards.
- several ST gold card is unplayable e.g. Milaen is 8 points for 9 provision cost while current decent silver is 6 points for 4 other gold card in this group are Sirssa and Morenn

 

[wonderboy870]

So I'm back to playing scoia at the moment, mainly bc of the gaunter challenge but also bc ST is my favorite faction from a lore and flavour side of things. after playing wild hunt, skellige and even NR for a bit I noticed something (that I already knew tbh)... ST bronzes are horrendously bad, especially in the 4P area.
the new dryad enchantress is really strong and in line with the general power creep this game is experiencing (again) but most of the roster is utter unplayable garbage.

ofc I'm not only complaining but have some suggestions for buffs, feedback welcome.

Scoia'tael Neophyte: make it a 4power card with effect: if you control at least 5 elves, spawn a copy of itself into the other row. this makes it a decent swarm cashout card (the only thing elves are good for atm) that can rival cards like mahakam guard and other swarm profiting cards, while having an advanced yet reachable condition. could also work as a 3 power with an easier condition, but it would still feel underwhelming imo.
alternatively: if there is an elf on this row, spawn 2 copies of this unit into random allied rows (or this row), similar to congregation.

Elven Wardancer: change to 4 power: deal 1 damage. devotion: deal 3 damage. just another regular 7 for 4 devotion card which I think are a nice addition, changing this card from a never used to a decent one.

Hawker healer: devotion: heal an allied unit by 4 and boost it by 2 (basically combine effects)

Farseer: reveal a random card from your deck, if it's a special card, boost self by 4. the potential 2 boost on this card are barely worth the disadvantage of showing parts of your deck to the opponent. the design of this card is inherently bad, but in spellatael it could be usable then.

Dwarvan Agitator: honestly just make this 4power and boost dwarf in hand by 2. a conditional 6 for 4 like most of the other bronzes by now.

Dol Blathanna Bomber: could honestly be 2 or even 3 power and damage 2 random units by 2. the random aspect of this card make points very unreliable anyway, so it could in some cases be a 7 for 4. in current patch, this can easily be a 1 for 4 in some matchups.

Vrihedd Officer: change effect to (melee) boost adjacent elves by 2.

vriheed sapper: needs atleast 4 power and boost elf in hand by 2. even then its not good as there is almost no handbuff synergy for elves. might be too strong at 5 power, honestly the card should just be changed altogether. currently, with wardancer these 2 cards combo as 11 for 9prov. is that good? no, it's not.

CDPR will probably never read this but I still felt like giving some feedback in the hopes of something.

The problem with these suggestions is they are taken in a vacuum. I have been playing a lot of a symbiosis ST and I can tell you that while ST does require more setup than other factions, it’s bronze have as much or more point potential overall. 5 point movers, multiple low provision poisoners, bonded cards that play for 6 and 8 as well as 5 for 7 with dwarf swarm. Damage engine dwarves as well as deadeye ambush fodder. The elves in particular don’t need individual buffs because they already have strong interactions. For example play a five point unit from the deck, boost all elves by 1, damage an enemy by the number of elves, etc... Non of this even mentions harmony and the capacity to easily exceed the normal point potentials.

Looking at your specific examples,

Neophyte and farseer both become conditional 8 point cards. Nothing in MO plays for base 8. Neophyte would be almost impossible to prevent from meeting the condition and would be repeatable as a 16 in 2 move. Agitator is already worth more than it’s face value as hand buff causes other benefits with payoff on the dwarf deploy. Varheed officer becomes yet another 7 for 4. You are essentially taking the worst of ST and making it competitive with the best of MM with no regard for the existing strength of ST.

I applaud your creativity, but I think you need to consider your suggestions from two perspectives. First from the opponent perspective (I.e how easy is it to block the conditional improvements like with neophyte,) and second from the broader faction perspective. ST is already fairy powerful both in gold and bronze, they don’t need a bunch of 7 and 8 for 4 or 5 bronze.

 

[Raja_Rajan]

...
5 point movers, multiple low provision poisoners, bonded cards that play for 6 and 8 as well as 5 for 7 with dwarf swarm. Damage engine dwarves as well as deadeye ambush fodder.

5 point movers: even MO has 5 for 5 movers (and heck, with an armor and a chance to do 2 damage).
Low provision poisoners: Heloo? When did ST have low provision poisoners. SY and NG has 4P cards, where ST has 5 P cards and have the worst point to provision ratio than these guys.
Damage Engine Dwarves: There is only one "random ping" dwarf and he is NOT an engine. He plays for 7 points for 5 provisions on which 4 are random pings over 4 turns. Seriously?

The elves in particular don’t need individual buffs because they already have strong interactions. For example play a five point unit from the deck, boost all elves by 1, damage an enemy by the number of elves, etc... Non of this even mentions harmony and the capacity to easily exceed the normal point potentials.

Dude, do you even play ST elves? Your post seems like you are sarcastic, but your writing style indicate you are serious. What else can be referred by your "etc."? Nothing Elves have just that. One elf which boosts all elves (who comes at -4 point to provision) and another elf who does damage based on number of elves on a row. Just these two cards. So, I don't know what else you had in mind when you said "etc". And you mean to just throw in "harmony" here when you want to discuss about elves who want to mass produce elves (and requiring entire deck to be elf and elf alone? Seriously? When did you ever see Isengrim/Yaevin in a harmony deck?

Neophyte and farseer both become conditional 8 point cards. Nothing in MO plays for base 8. Neophyte would be almost impossible to prevent from meeting the condition and would be repeatable as a 16 in 2 move. Agitator is already worth more than it’s face value as hand buff causes other benefits with payoff on the dwarf deploy. Varheed officer becomes yet another 7 for 4. You are essentially taking the worst of ST and making it competitive with the best of MM with no regard for the existing strength of ST.

I applaud your creativity, but I think you need to consider your suggestions from two perspectives. First from the opponent perspective (I.e how easy is it to block the conditional improvements like with neophyte,) and second from the broader faction perspective. ST is already fairy powerful both in gold and bronze, they don’t need a bunch of 7 and 8 for 4 or 5 bronze.

What the fun are are talking about Neophyte and Farseer? When did they even play for 8 points? What is the logic behind your Maths? Nothing in MO plays for base 8? Seriously? 4P Noonwraith plays for 10+ points (in your logic of adding other synergies the card may have) 6 on her and 5+ on thrive.

"Neophyte would be impossible to prevent from meeting the condition and would be repeatable as 16 in 2 moves" makes me laugh so hard. Please, please explain the logic of how a 4 for 4 Neophyte can be 16 points in 2 moves. I had to open the game and see Neophyte and confirm my knowledge.

Agitator is 5 for for 4P or 7 for 4P if and only if you have drawn Sheldon. Otherwise, he is a 5 for 4 putting 3 points on board.
Vrihedd Officer is a 7 for 4. At this point I am thinking probably you are sleep typing or fully drunk and counting 3+2 = 7. If however you are counting every bloody elf which plays for pathetic value with +2 because "they have Isengrim and Yeaven which CAN give +2", then you have to say Isengrim plays for 4 for 8P and Yeaven plays for 4 for 7P. Classic double counting and conveniently not double counting Thrive from MO or hunder other synergy ever other faction gets for free on top of playing more more raw values. Isengrim and Yeaven are solid elves in a long round. What about the elves which play for 5 for 4P and 6 for 5P in the other rounds? If Gwent is a single round 10 cards game, then yes, all your logic will remotely vaguely make sense. Otherwise, which is the case, they are moot.

ST has fairly powerful bronze? ST has some good bronze removals and those are all used and only they are used in Symbiosis and Precision Strike which is hard carrying ST. I applaud YOUR creativity Sir! In adding +2 for every elves. In fact, in that same logic, you should add +3 instead of +2 since ST can play Oak! So, every elf card the opponent plays in all 3 rounds should be calculated with +3 points and balanced accordingly.

 

[Celadyl]

I'd love that. Might be slightly op as it'd be 8 for 4 with 4 carryover but why the hell not. They made Greatswords have 10 base power last patch after all and gave SK one of the best new leaders. And Agitators are only usable with Sheldon who won't see R1 half of the time. There are stronger conditional RNG cards that that.

And carryover decks desperately need a fighting chance in R1. Too much last say abuse these days.

agitators wouldnt be 8 for 4 but 6 for 4 with carryover, although with a condition that lets it only be played with one tag. just because sheldon benefits double from boosts doesnt make agitator 8 points, it makes sheldon 10. for most other interactions the boost is much less significant.

The problem with these suggestions is they are taken in a vacuum. I have been playing a lot of a symbiosis ST and I can tell you that while ST does require more setup than other factions, it’s bronze have as much or more point potential overall. 5 point movers, multiple low provision poisoners, bonded cards that play for 6 and 8 as well as 5 for 7 with dwarf swarm. Damage engine dwarves as well as deadeye ambush fodder. The elves in particular don’t need individual buffs because they already have strong interactions. For example play a five point unit from the deck, boost all elves by 1, damage an enemy by the number of elves, etc... Non of this even mentions harmony and the capacity to easily exceed the normal point potentials.

Looking at your specific examples,

Neophyte and farseer both become conditional 8 point cards. Nothing in MO plays for base 8. Neophyte would be almost impossible to prevent from meeting the condition and would be repeatable as a 16 in 2 move. Agitator is already worth more than it’s face value as hand buff causes other benefits with payoff on the dwarf deploy. Varheed officer becomes yet another 7 for 4. You are essentially taking the worst of ST and making it competitive with the best of MM with no regard for the existing strength of ST.

I applaud your creativity, but I think you need to consider your suggestions from two perspectives. First from the opponent perspective (I.e how easy is it to block the conditional improvements like with neophyte,) and second from the broader faction perspective. ST is already fairy powerful both in gold and bronze, they don’t need a bunch of 7 and 8 for 4 or 5 bronze.

well I didnt give any suggestions to sym cards because that archetype isnt garbage. elves only work because of vernossiel and the scenario (we will see how those will get changed). yes elves have strong payoffs but the bronze core on its own is complete trash. maybe it (kind of) works that way but its not fun and it certainly isnt top tier material.
I dont see how farseer could even be considered strong even with a 4 point boost, it would see as much play as gascon, which can be a 11 or 12 (wow!). yes, the neophyte would be strong but it would also be a payoff card and not a simple pointslam. you know for how many points mahakam guard can play? 11, and I have yet to see it considered OP.
I have to say though I like the alternative version of neophyte better (conditional 6 for 4). maybe if all the changes I suggested were made some other cards would have to be slightly toned down in order to make the archetype not too strong (e.g. isengrim?) but the way it is now playing elves is playing a bunch of worthless trash cards to eventually play overtuned payoff cards.
vrihedd officer would also be decent at 5provisions with this effect, but I think playing elves is very similar to playing devo, since playing non-elves is a pretty big drawback for your payoff cards like yaevin and isengrim, which are the cards carrying the archetype apart from the leader-vernossiel interaction, which can be played with any deck to some extend.

5 point movers: even MO has 5 for 5 movers (and heck, with an armor and a chance to do 2 damage).
Low provision poisoners: Heloo? When did ST have low provision poisoners. SY and NG has 4P cards, where ST has 5 P cards and have the worst point to provision ratio than these guys.
Damage Engine Dwarves: There is only one "random ping" dwarf and he is NOT an engine. He plays for 7 points for 5 provisions on which 4 are random pings over 4 turns. Seriously?


Dude, do you even play ST elves? Your post seems like you are sarcastic, but your writing style indicate you are serious. What else can be referred by your "etc."? Nothing Elves have just that. One elf which boosts all elves (who comes at -4 point to provision) and another elf who does damage based on number of elves on a row. Just these two cards. So, I don't know what else you had in mind when you said "etc". And you mean to just throw in "harmony" here when you want to discuss about elves who want to mass produce elves (and requiring entire deck to be elf and elf alone? Seriously? When did you ever see Isengrim/Yaevin in a harmony deck?

What the fun are are talking about Neophyte and Farseer? When did they even play for 8 points? What is the logic behind your Maths? Nothing in MO plays for base 8? Seriously? 4P Noonwraith plays for 10+ points (in your logic of adding other synergies the card may have) 6 on her and 5+ on thrive.

"Neophyte would be impossible to prevent from meeting the condition and would be repeatable as 16 in 2 moves" makes me laugh so hard. Please, please explain the logic of how a 4 for 4 Neophyte can be 16 points in 2 moves. I had to open the game and see Neophyte and confirm my knowledge.

Agitator is 5 for for 4P or 7 for 4P if and only if you have drawn Sheldon. Otherwise, he is a 5 for 4 putting 3 points on board.
Vrihedd Officer is a 7 for 4. At this point I am thinking probably you are sleep typing or fully drunk and counting 3+2 = 7. If however you are counting every bloody elf which plays for pathetic value with +2 because "they have Isengrim and Yeaven which CAN give +2", then you have to say Isengrim plays for 4 for 8P and Yeaven plays for 4 for 7P. Classic double counting and conveniently not double counting Thrive from MO or hunder other synergy ever other faction gets for free on top of playing more more raw values. Isengrim and Yeaven are solid elves in a long round. What about the elves which play for 5 for 4P and 6 for 5P in the other rounds? If Gwent is a single round 10 cards game, then yes, all your logic will remotely vaguely make sense. Otherwise, which is the case, they are moot.

ST has fairly powerful bronze? ST has some good bronze removals and those are all used and only they are used in Symbiosis and Precision Strike which is hard carrying ST. I applaud YOUR creativity Sir! In adding +2 for every elves. In fact, in that same logic, you should add +3 instead of +2 since ST can play Oak! So, every elf card the opponent plays in all 3 rounds should be calculated with +3 points and balanced accordingly.

the numbers he mentioned are taken from my original post, so it answers not to what the cards actually do but to my suggestions.

 

[Bleach25]

I think that some of these suggestions are reasonable, though for me agitator and sapper are big no. They need to stay below curve, because handbuff (carryover) is a really good ability.

Also don't forget neophyte is part of SC stratagem.

 

[Celadyl]

I think that some of these suggestions are reasonable, though for me agitator and sapper are big no. They need to stay below curve, because handbuff (carryover) is a really good ability.

Also don't forget neophyte is part of SC stratagem.

I somewhat understand agitator but sapper? there is exactly one elf card that benefits from boost specifically and its a never used 4p. sapper is never used because there is no payoff and it's actually really difficult to play for any carryover if most of your bronzes play for 1p less than in basically any other faction.

stratagem could just be changed imo, its only good for radeyah scenario anyways

 

[Barracuda88]

Coming back to this thread, we did see surprising buffs to Agitator and Bomber last patch, and I think both are decent now.

 

[Bellatrix_]

Coming back to this thread, we did see surprising buffs to Agitator and Bomber last patch, and I think both are decent now.

I dont think Bomber is good and without sheldon agitator would see 0 play. I like pyrotechnician tough

 

[wonderboy870]

5 point movers: even MO has 5 for 5 movers (and heck, with an armor and a chance to do 2 damage).
Low provision poisoners: Heloo? When did ST have low provision poisoners. SY and NG has 4P cards, where ST has 5 P cards and have the worst point to provision ratio than these guys.
Damage Engine Dwarves: There is only one "random ping" dwarf and he is NOT an engine. He plays for 7 points for 5 provisions on which 4 are random pings over 4 turns. Seriously?


Dude, do you even play ST elves? Your post seems like you are sarcastic, but your writing style indicate you are serious. What else can be referred by your "etc."? Nothing Elves have just that. One elf which boosts all elves (who comes at -4 point to provision) and another elf who does damage based on number of elves on a row. Just these two cards. So, I don't know what else you had in mind when you said "etc". And you mean to just throw in "harmony" here when you want to discuss about elves who want to mass produce elves (and requiring entire deck to be elf and elf alone? Seriously? When did you ever see Isengrim/Yaevin in a harmony deck?

What the fun are are talking about Neophyte and Farseer? When did they even play for 8 points? What is the logic behind your Maths? Nothing in MO plays for base 8? Seriously? 4P Noonwraith plays for 10+ points (in your logic of adding other synergies the card may have) 6 on her and 5+ on thrive.

"Neophyte would be impossible to prevent from meeting the condition and would be repeatable as 16 in 2 moves" makes me laugh so hard. Please, please explain the logic of how a 4 for 4 Neophyte can be 16 points in 2 moves. I had to open the game and see Neophyte and confirm my knowledge.

Agitator is 5 for for 4P or 7 for 4P if and only if you have drawn Sheldon. Otherwise, he is a 5 for 4 putting 3 points on board.
Vrihedd Officer is a 7 for 4. At this point I am thinking probably you are sleep typing or fully drunk and counting 3+2 = 7. If however you are counting every bloody elf which plays for pathetic value with +2 because "they have Isengrim and Yeaven which CAN give +2", then you have to say Isengrim plays for 4 for 8P and Yeaven plays for 4 for 7P. Classic double counting and conveniently not double counting Thrive from MO or hunder other synergy ever other faction gets for free on top of playing more more raw values. Isengrim and Yeaven are solid elves in a long round. What about the elves which play for 5 for 4P and 6 for 5P in the other rounds? If Gwent is a single round 10 cards game, then yes, all your logic will remotely vaguely make sense. Otherwise, which is the case, they are moot.

ST has fairly powerful bronze? ST has some good bronze removals and those are all used and only they are used in Symbiosis and Precision Strike which is hard carrying ST. I applaud YOUR creativity Sir! In adding +2 for every elves. In fact, in that same logic, you should add +3 instead of +2 since ST can play Oak! So, every elf card the opponent plays in all 3 rounds should be calculated with +3 points and balanced accordingly.

I apologize because in order to respond to everything this has to be long. I will do my best to hit all your points, but if I miss some please let me know.

1. Your initial point about movers and poisoners being inefficient is incorrect. A 5 point move card that can move friendly or enemy troops is a counter to an enemy move card. That is worth more considerably more utility than the MO. In fact name another bronze that plays for 4 or 5 provisions that moves a friendly. As for poison, one has harmony, the other can be moved and give shield. This fits the theme of ST having more value long term than on initial deploy.

2. Damage engine dwarf is a damage engine because if you feed him armor he keeps on doing damage. There are multiple 4 and 5 provision cards that accomplish this. Again requires setup but functions like a gold when next to wage burg for example (and before you ask the gold I am referring to is Herman Drummond.)

3. You want a basis for ect... Other cards include Ele’yes and Vern. How about a combo of damage elves that lead into a Schirru nuking. There are plenty of strong interactions in elves.

4. The harmony comment was an after thought at the end of the paragraph. It was to suggest elves are plenty strong by themselves and before you go buffing any individual bronzes also remember harmony. For example, a varheed officer who boosts two adjacent units by 2 doesn’t play for just 3+2+2, he also plays for how many harmony pings he makes. I will concede it should have had an extra sentence to add distance but it was late and I was tired.

5. You straight up owe me an apology for everything you said in that next paragraph. You asked when a farseer could play for 8. When it plays base 4 and gets 4 extra points for revealing a special card. Or a neophyte playing for 8. When it has a base 4 and is allowed to make a 4 point copy. This whole paragraph was responding to the specific suggestions of the OP.

6. You are correct that I misspoke about agitators. In addition to boosting Skaggs and playing for above his value. In addition to making the defender a 7 hit point 2 armor unit who cannot be killed by any damage special outside of instant kill, in addition to putting marauders out of reach of most kill specials thus allowing bonded bonus, he also helps on board. He is worth pings to Gabor and Xavier while also providing support to Barclays and one less obstical for Dwarven Mercenary’s. All of this is to point out that with ST there are interactions and synergies not often seen in other factions.

7. To your point about adding plus 2 to every elf. For cards like deadeye you absolutely must. Beyond that, it is hard to respond when you clearly don’t understand the context of the thread. I invite you to read carefully the original post, reread my post, apologize for your disrespectful math comments, and then try again on your response.

 

[Raja_Rajan]

I apologize because in order to respond to everything this has to be long. I will do my best to hit all your points, but if I miss some please let me know.

1. Your initial point about movers and poisoners being inefficient is incorrect. A 5 point move card that can move friendly or enemy troops is a counter to an enemy move card. That is worth more considerably more utility than the MO. In fact name another bronze that plays for 4 or 5 provisions that moves a friendly. As for poison, one has harmony, the other can be moved and give shield. This fits the theme of ST having more value long term than on initial deploy.

2. Damage engine dwarf is a damage engine because if you feed him armor he keeps on doing damage. There are multiple 4 and 5 provision cards that accomplish this. Again requires setup but functions like a gold when next to wage burg for example (and before you ask the gold I am referring to is Herman Drummond.)

3. You want a basis for ect... Other cards include Ele’yes and Vern. How about a combo of damage elves that lead into a Schirru nuking. There are plenty of strong interactions in elves.

4. The harmony comment was an after thought at the end of the paragraph. It was to suggest elves are plenty strong by themselves and before you go buffing any individual bronzes also remember harmony. For example, a varheed officer who boosts two adjacent units by 2 doesn’t play for just 3+2+2, he also plays for how many harmony pings he makes. I will concede it should have had an extra sentence to add distance but it was late and I was tired.

5. You straight up owe me an apology for everything you said in that next paragraph. You asked when a farseer could play for 8. When it plays base 4 and gets 4 extra points for revealing a special card. Or a neophyte playing for 8. When it has a base 4 and is allowed to make a 4 point copy. This whole paragraph was responding to the specific suggestions of the OP.

6. You are correct that I misspoke about agitators. In addition to boosting Skaggs and playing for above his value. In addition to making the defender a 7 hit point 2 armor unit who cannot be killed by any damage special outside of instant kill, in addition to putting marauders out of reach of most kill specials thus allowing bonded bonus, he also helps on board. He is worth pings to Gabor and Xavier while also providing support to Barclays and one less obstical for Dwarven Mercenary’s. All of this is to point out that with ST there are interactions and synergies not often seen in other factions.

7. To your point about adding plus 2 to every elf. For cards like deadeye you absolutely must. Beyond that, it is hard to respond when you clearly don’t understand the context of the thread. I invite you to read carefully the original post, reread my post, apologize for your disrespectful math comments, and then try again on your response.

1. I still consider 5PP movers (now it is 4PP, yay!) not so great. They are niche tech cards which play for much less than what other cards in that provisions play for. Poison cards of ST are not cheap. They are the cosliest in the game and most inefficient. The Dryad which should be moved to give a shield... I play GT the most with most move cards, but I have never done that. Never seen anyone doing that. Poison in ST is the weakest among the three factions which has poisons and has the lowest number of units which can poison.
2. Berserkers are not engines. When other cards feed armor to him, it is the value of the other cards and shouldn't be counted him for an engine value for Berserker. And he is the slowest engine in the game. Getting 7 for 5 in 4 turns.
3. Eleyas is a 11 for 9 at best and in most cases 10 for 9. But I agree that he is strong in elf deck as he puts 3 elfs in a row. Varnosil is a 11 for 12 putting 3 elfs on board. They are not something which deserves the "etc". When did you last see Schirru being played in an elf deck? Schirru is a different beast who belongs to a totally different deck.
4. Understood
5. I straight up apologize I went "papa bear" mode as soon as I saw "elves are strong" comment completely missing the context you came from.
6. Agitators are red-coin abuse cards in games you don't care about last say. But playing him on blue coin will most probably let you lose on even or commit the cards you boosted. Today, just today I played against two precision strike which went Agitators, All God in blue coin, and losing R1 on even and ultimately losing the game to me. They are just super bad in blue coin or even playing in R3. As such I don't think Agitators are good cards.
7. I apologize for my disrespectful maths comments.

My respect and appreciation for being polite and answer with dignity when I was clearly completely wrong. If I done the same mistake to some other members, I would have been flamed or ridiculed and made this much worse. Shows your maturity. Thanks for that! Cheers!

 

[wonderboy870]

1. I still consider 5PP movers (now it is 4PP, yay!) not so great. They are niche tech cards which play for much less than what other cards in that provisions play for. Poison cards of ST are not cheap. They are the cosliest in the game and most inefficient. The Dryad which should be moved to give a shield... I play GT the most with most move cards, but I have never done that. Never seen anyone doing that. Poison in ST is the weakest among the three factions which has poisons and has the lowest number of units which can poison.
2. Berserkers are not engines. When other cards feed armor to him, it is the value of the other cards and shouldn't be counted him for an engine value for Berserker. And he is the slowest engine in the game. Getting 7 for 5 in 4 turns.
3. Eleyas is a 11 for 9 at best and in most cases 10 for 9. But I agree that he is strong in elf deck as he puts 3 elfs in a row. Varnosil is a 11 for 12 putting 3 elfs on board. They are not something which deserves the "etc". When did you last see Schirru being played in an elf deck? Schirru is a different beast who belongs to a totally different deck.
4. Understood
5. I straight up apologize I went "papa bear" mode as soon as I saw "elves are strong" comment completely missing the context you came from.
6. Agitators are red-coin abuse cards in games you don't care about last say. But playing him on blue coin will most probably let you lose on even or commit the cards you boosted. Today, just today I played against two precision strike which went Agitators, All God in blue coin, and losing R1 on even and ultimately losing the game to me. They are just super bad in blue coin or even playing in R3. As such I don't think Agitators are good cards.
7. I apologize for my disrespectful maths comments.

My respect and appreciation for being polite and answer with dignity when I was clearly completely wrong. If I done the same mistake to some other members, I would have been flamed or ridiculed and made this much worse. Shows your maturity. Thanks for that! Cheers!

No worries. We both know stuff happens, especially late at night. The thing about elves is they always seem to be more about payoff then tempo. Just look at the scenario. Even with the new engine added in (not something I am convinced is useful, kinda feels like a nerf,) most scenarios put at least four points on the board, this one currently does 3. The next one is usually 4 plus engine power or card ability, instead it is 6 both deadeyes setting up a + 4 in damage. Finally a 3 point special with the potential for 6 and then another deadeye which unless killed is worth plus 2. My concern with boosting individual elf bronzes is that after the payoff they will be stronger than intended.

Berserkers are engines in that if left alone they will remove a point from the opponent as long as they have armor. I will grant you they are perhaps not the best engine, but they are valuable especially in forge decks.

My comment about agitators is really meant more for the context of a buff. They are highly conditional and can be very costly when the conditions are not met. That said, dwarves have plenty of nice units and if forge was a better leader ability the deck would be competitive.

I hate that nerf on the 5 point move card. We agree on that 100%.

I am not opposed to buffing ST, I just think people need to be careful in how they go about it. ST more than any other faction relies on interactions. Hand buffing, moving, harmony, symbiosis, ect... (and yes there is an ect... as for example armor buffing and total number of eleves/dwarves are among them) .

 

[Barracuda88]

To chime in a bit on the pushback against some of these suggestions:

-The Berserkers are not engines. They are 7 for 5 (or 8 for 5 in a Forge deck) cards. The fact that you can feed them armor or set them next to the wagenburg does not make them an engine any more than giving vitality to a unit, or setting it next to a drummer for boosts.
-While I do consider Agitator a much improved card since the 1-point buff, it's a 5 for 4, period. The fact that it "effectively" plays for seven when boosting Skaggs doesn't make it a 7 for 4. It's Skaggs, a GOLD card, that takes the 2 point boost and turns it into 4. Otherwise, if we're going to count the Agitator as 7 for 4, then Skaggs is a 6 for 8 and needs a buff. The actual truth is, though, that Agitator is built specifically as a Skaggs companion card, and has basically no deck value without him.
-The proposed Farseer buff is not to make the card a "conditional" 8 for 4. It's a 6 for 4 average, which will play as 8 for 4 close to half of the time and 4 for 4 the other half, IF you're running a unitless deck. Granted, in theory, if you are going to make a hyperthin ST deck just to use an iffy 4p card as your 3rd round finisher card for some strange reason, you can maybe raise the probability of hitting the special card to maybe 75-80 percent? Maybe? Is that really a nightmarish scenario? This isn't going to be that scary elf deck with all the crazy synergies and interactions, by the way. At the very least, I would say a 3-point boost is needed here instead of 2, because right now this card is ludicrous.
-I do agree that the Neophyte change would be a bit wack, but it is a very bad card right now and needs something. Maybe remove the copy spawn give it 4 power and "Every turn, on turn start, move to the other row" or something, idk.

 

[wonderboy870]

To chime in a bit on the pushback against some of these suggestions:

-The Berserkers are not engines. They are 7 for 5 (or 8 for 5 in a Forge deck) cards. The fact that you can feed them armor or set them next to the wagenburg does not make them an engine any more than giving vitality to a unit, or setting it next to a drummer for boosts.
-While I do consider Agitator a much improved card since the 1-point buff, it's a 5 for 4, period. The fact that it "effectively" plays for seven when boosting Skaggs doesn't make it a 7 for 4. It's Skaggs, a GOLD card, that takes the 2 point boost and turns it into 4. Otherwise, if we're going to count the Agitator as 7 for 4, then Skaggs is a 6 for 8 and needs a buff. The actual truth is, though, that Agitator is built specifically as a Skaggs companion card, and has basically no deck value without him.
-The proposed Farseer buff is not to make the card a "conditional" 8 for 4. It's a 6 for 4 average, which will play as 8 for 4 close to half of the time and 4 for 4 the other half, IF you're running a unitless deck. Granted, in theory, if you are going to make a hyperthin ST deck just to use an iffy 4p card as your 3rd round finisher card for some strange reason, you can maybe raise the probability of hitting the special card to maybe 75-80 percent? Maybe? Is that really a nightmarish scenario? This isn't going to be that scary elf deck with all the crazy synergies and interactions, by the way. At the very least, I would say a 3-point boost is needed here instead of 2, because right now this card is ludicrous.
-I do agree that the Neophyte change would be a bit wack, but it is a very bad card right now and needs something. Maybe remove the copy spawn give it 4 power and "Every turn, on turn start, move to the other row" or something, idk.

A drummer needs a card to its right or it is just a 3 point bronze. Anna needs someone to stand to her right or she is just a four point gold (unless inspired then she needs someone on both sides to get max value.) Berserkers needing help doesn’t mean their not an engine, it just means they are not a self sustaining engine. Harold is a damage engine in his final form but needs warriors played to do damage. The principle is the same.

Farseers being able to hit 8 is dangerous because it adds more RNG to Gwent. I also dislike the possibility of any bronze hitting 8 directly as that is power creep. To your point about playing for an average of 6, it would be better to raise the base power to 6 and give it the chance to bonus up to 7, or base 5 and bonus to 7 if you want to be conservative.

+2 points to a dwarf in hand can be bigger than you think. For example it can put Gabor out of reach of most removal and thus put a resilient card on the board at the start of the next round. It can put marauder out of reach allowing an 8 point bonded follow up. It can get a defender going as well. Not to mention under the correct circumstance it pushes points to the next round. With the right approach this can be very big for ST.

 

[Barracuda88]

A drummer needs a card to its right or it is just a 3 point bronze. Anna needs someone to stand to her right or she is just a four point gold (unless inspired then she needs someone on both sides to get max value.) Berserkers needing help doesn’t mean their not an engine, it just means they are not a self sustaining engine. Harold is a damage engine in his final form but needs warriors played to do damage. The principle is the same.

A drummer needs a card, but it's the drummer that's the engine, not the card. You put that card next to something else and it will do nothing, but you can put the drummer next to any card and it will produce. The drummer "produces" points, the target "gains" points. So "the same principle" here applies to the wagenburg next to the berserkers. Wagenburg is the engine, berserker is the card that gains value from it. The points are simply converted into damage instead of health. The other cards that add armor to it are, once again, no different from cards apply vitality to any other card.

Farseers being able to hit 8 is dangerous because it adds more RNG to Gwent. I also dislike the possibility of any bronze hitting 8 directly as that is power creep. To your point about playing for an average of 6, it would be better to raise the base power to 6 and give it the chance to bonus up to 7, or base 5 and bonus to 7 if you want to be conservative.

Eh, I don't know. Better, but less fun. And anyway, I think the 3 bonus instead of 2 with the same condition would be reasonable.

+2 points to a dwarf in hand can be bigger than you think. For example it can put Gabor out of reach of most removal and thus put a resilient card on the board at the start of the next round. It can put marauder out of reach allowing an 8 point bonded follow up. It can get a defender going as well. Not to mention under the correct circumstance it pushes points to the next round. With the right approach this can be very big for ST.

Yes, it can do all those things, but at the cost of using a turn to leave a dead 3 on the board. MUCH more often than not, it's not a good idea, which is why: 1) you're not including agitators into any decks that don't have Sheldon, and 2) you're not using them for these other things unless you brick, because doing so effectively removes value from Sheldon in the later rounds.

 

[Celadyl]

Farseers being able to hit 8 is dangerous because it adds more RNG to Gwent. I also dislike the possibility of any bronze hitting 8 directly as that is power creep. To your point about playing for an average of 6, it would be better to raise the base power to 6 and give it the chance to bonus up to 7, or base 5 and bonus to 7 if you want to be conservative.

I dont even really like the suggestion I made about farseer and I said in my OP that the effect should rather be reworked entirely. but I 100% disagree with you here. have you heard of spotter? spotter can play for 10+ points. have you heard of venendal elite? mahakam guard? vrihedd vanguard? there are a lot of bronze payoff cards like this in the game. and with farseer in your spellatael gord deck even if you have 12 special cards in your deck and only drawn units (which is not only extremely unlikely but also very antisynergistic with basically your entire deck) this card still only has a 80% chance of even getting the boost. average chance would be 50% with the drawback of showing your opponents one of the cards you DONT have in hand (I think this drawback is certainly underestimated).
would there be a better solution for farseer? certainly. I only tried to apply a bandaid to this card, which currently is absolutely never worth it, not even with max specials in your deck.