Something needs to be done with Skellige

[reivelt]

i understand the frustration against thinning deck completely. Before HC, i use skellige thinning which i would say even stronger thinning to begin with. The way it is frustating right now, is not the thinning card itself, but the card the thinning aiming at, like jutta+bekker, or 2x tuirseach veteran+yrden.
The purpose of thinning to have the strongest possible card in your hand to finish with, isnt it?

Back before HC, if you play skellige thinning deck, you win because you fill the whole battlefield with cards like queensguard+cerys combo. Nowadays you win with that similar combo+that strong af combo i mentioned earlier.

what i would change to 'nerf' thinning deck? to make some of the draw+discard card as order abilities. This way, the opponent has a way to react instead of just watching the other person play him/herself

And other thing i would change
WHO IN THE RIGHT MIND MAKES A TCG WITH BROWSE-ABLE DECK?

if you cant browse your deck at will, at the very least, the user of the deck has to use his own mind and memory to play the game. This thing applies to every other deck as well.

 

[Sprinkles29]

what i would change to 'nerf' thinning deck? to make some of the draw+discard card as order abilities. This way, the opponent has a way to react instead of just watching the other person play him/herself

And other thing i would change
WHO IN THE RIGHT MIND MAKES A TCG WITH BROWSE-ABLE DECK?

if you cant browse your deck at will, at the very least, the user of the deck has to use his own mind and memory to play the game. This thing applies to every other deck as well.

No thanks on orders and also one good reason to allow players to browse their decks is because a digital card game has a lot more tom foolery going on between the player's hand and other piles. Such as create and play a copy of random spell from the opponent deck. In a physical game you'd have to go through every card in their deck before making a decision. In this game you just let the computer handle the details. So it's helpful to know what the computer has been doing.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

i understand the frustration against thinning deck completely.

Yes, it's frustrating when an Eist deck plays Derran into Mork, Cerys and Bear with a Roach pull followed by Birna into double Skirmisher, Skald to toss a low value bronze card then TA to have 30 pts on the opening board in 3 card plays, and thin by 7 in the process.

 

[rrc]

Yes, it's frustrating when an Eist deck plays Derran into Mork, Cerys and Bear with a Roach pull followed by Birna into double Skirmisher, Skald to toss a low value bronze card then TA to have 30 pts on the opening board in 3 card plays, and thin by 7 in the process.

Sadly brother, CDPR thinks it is not unfair and thinks that it is perfectly balanced. So does most of the SK players (which I think is the case within CDPR design team too).
I hate the concept of "If you can't fight them, join them" but this is incredibly broken and apparently will never get seen as so by CDPR.

 

[4RM3D]

Something else has occurred to me while thinking about Discard. Every faction but Skellige has these mini-archetypes, a group of cards that synergize with each other. These clusters work well in one archetype, but not so well in another. For example, both Demavend and Foltest work with Orders, but the usage thereof is vastly different. However, it does allow cards like Ves and Cavalry to shine in both decks.

While, technically, Skellige does have these mini-archetypes, they aren't fleshed out enough. Now, everyone is using Discard because it works in every deck, even when it doesn't synergize with the rest of the deck, unlike with the other factions. On top of that, there is another issue. Discard is an "all-in" archetype. You either put in the whole package or you don't use any because too many cards can brick otherwise. Finally, Discard also has other practical applications, that is a way to potentially unbrick your hand (besides its established consistency). This dual-usage is unique.

TL;DR: Because Discard can be used in every deck and because it's an "all-in" archetype it has reduced Skellige to a binary choice. The other mini-archetypes should be made more viable, which is hopefully going to happen with the next expansion.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Something else has occurred to me while thinking about Discard. Every faction but Skellige has these mini-archetypes, a group of cards that synergize with each other. These clusters work well in one archetype, but not so well in another. For example, both Demavend and Foltest work with Orders, but the usage thereof is vastly different. However, it does allow cards like Ves and Cavalry to shine in both decks.

Why do you think SK is excluded from having mini-archetypes? Is bloodthirst not just as much sorta kinda an archetype as spamming elves, dwarves, reveal units, soldiers, deathwish/consume, thrive units, orders units, etc? Warriors could conceivably be classified as an archetype. So could pirates and ships. These aren't fully fleshed out but they don't feel any less so compared to similar concepts within other factions. I'm not saying you're wrong. Just curious....

I'd add, Foltest and Demavend work with orders because there isn't much choice. The faction is jam packed with orders cards. If a leader works with orders and a good portion of the available faction cards are orders based it only makes sense to run an orders concept. Foltest tends to carry a decent amount of neutrals as well. Eyck, Ocvist, Gaunter, Cow, etc. are neutral cards. They just happen to be superior to many faction orders options.

While, technically, Skellige does have these mini-archetypes, they aren't fleshed out enough. Now, everyone is using Discard because it works in every deck, even when it doesn't synergize with the rest of the deck, unlike with the other factions. On top of that, there is another issue. Discard is an "all-in" archetype. You either put in the whole package or you don't use any because too many cards can brick otherwise. Finally, Discard also has other practical applications, that is a way to potentially unbrick your hand (besides its established consistency). This dual-usage is unique.

I think the reason everyone uses discard is simple. It's really good. SK has the most economical combination of thinning and tempo, period. Those cards output as much or more points for less provisions. They can draw cards rather than immediately play them. The only real shortcoming is they're slightly more difficult to find and execute compared to some other options. This often doesn't matter if you run enough of the thin tools. Eventually you'll likely find Derran or Birna. If you don't want to face the greater difficulty in finding them you can slap in Witchers like everyone else and enjoy some combination of both.

I'd disagree with the notion discard is all-in. Derran makes sense with Savage Bear, Cerys and Morkvarg. He could still work without them and be used to toss cards you don't really need or want. Birna could work too, as she lets you cycle 2 cards with 2 other cards. Nobody does it because, well, it's too good to pass up the tempo/thinning combination. You don't need to run Skirmishers, Skalds, Derran and Birna together. You could just as easily run Derran with Mork and some other cards benefiting from discard and Witchers, or some other thin tools.

 

[4RM3D]

Warriors could conceivably be classified as an archetype. So could pirates and ships. These aren't fully fleshed out but they don't feel any less so compared to similar concepts within other factions. I'm not saying you're wrong. Just curious....

I do see the potential for those archetypes, but, like we've both said, they aren't fleshed out enough to be claimed as one just yet.

I'd add, Foltest and Demavend work with orders because there isn't much choice.

There are still a lot of choices for Foltest and Demavend and they focus on different aspects. This means there are various possible decks. Foltest can focus on Draug or use more control, for example. The flexibility of those decks and the choices therein far exceed Skellige's, at the moment.

I think the reason everyone uses discard is simple. It's really good. SK has the most economical combination of thinning and tempo, period.

It would be more accurate to say that the rest is pretty bad. If CDPR would nerf Discard without buffing the other archetypes, then Skellige would drop from its tier 1 position.

I'd disagree with the notion discard is all-in. Derran makes sense with Savage Bear, Cerys and Morkvarg. [...] Birna could work too, as she lets you cycle 2 cards with 2 other cards.

Derran/Birna/Skald would still work, but Morkvarg and Skirmisher need the aforementioned. Derran would be useless in the final round, though. Only Birna remains good to unbrick your hand. She's an auto-include just like Ves is for NR.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I do see the potential for those archetypes, but, like we've both said, they aren't fleshed out enough to be claimed as one just yet.

Is this much different from the other factions though? Every faction appears to have partial archetypes within it in HC. Taking a singular concept and running with it is incredibly hard to pull off. Part of this is because there aren't enough cards. Part of it is because certain cards are too difficult to use or inferior to other available options. Part of it is also because various neutrals are incredibly strong and, well, certain concepts are too. Discard is a perfect example. There is no reason not to include it with SK. IMO this is more because it's strong. It's not because the archetypes are limited.

There are still a lot of choices for Foltest and Demavend and they focus on different aspects. This means there are various possible decks. Foltest can focus on Draug or use more control, for example. The flexibility of those decks and the choices therein far exceed Skellige's, at the moment.

There are choices, yes. Yet still, Foltest and Demavend are forced to play into orders and charges because the leader ability demands it. You can run other cards with both leaders but the point still stands.

I'd disagree with the notion SK lacks flexibility to try different stuff. You posted a Harald deck running the traditional GS concept (which I refer to as Axemen... but meh ) with weather involvement. There are quite a number of options with both Eist and Crach. Hell, I've been trying to devise a way to run bloodthirst with typical Eist warriors. It's surprisingly not bad at all. Bran gets relegated to Bearmaster abuse but there is no reason it needs to be played as such. It can work with both weather concepts and discard/Coral, even if the latter is somewhat of a meme deck.

It would be more accurate to say that the rest is pretty bad. If CDPR would nerf Discard without buffing the other archetypes, then Skellige would drop from its tier 1 position.

I would agree completely here. The discard concept cannot be arbitrarily nerfed into oblivion. Dropping it from T1 shouldn't be a factor, however. I actually cannot recall a time when SK didn't have a top tier option or something at least close. The faction has frequently started slow before picking up steam later in a patch though. The same cannot be said for factions like NG, NR or ST. It probably could be said for MS though.

Derran/Birna/Skald would still work, but Morkvarg and Skirmisher need the aforementioned. Derran would be useless in the final round, though. Only Birna remains good to unbrick your hand. She's an auto-include just like Ves is for NR.

Yeah, if you're running Derran you obviously want cards like Morkvarg. The same is true of Birna. Again, this is because having the ability to dump 7-12 pts on a board and thin extremely well is quite strong. Nothing requires running all of them though.

 

[4RM3D]

Is this much different from the other factions though? Every faction appears to have partial archetypes within it in HC.

Yes, but other factions have more viable options, which bring me to...

You posted a Harald deck running the traditional GS concept [...] with weather involvement. There are quite a number of options [...]

Interesting you should mention that because my deck has the full Discard package (minus the Ship, if you count that). Yeah, there are still some choices, but most of them include -well- Discard. I think Skellige has the least amount of variance in popular archetypes. Regardless, we really need more cards, not just for Skellige, but for all factions.