Strategems need a buff

[rrc]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1262421023070343168

I can't tell this better than Spyro. Playing blue coin feels absolutely horrible. It is actually like giving CA to opponents since you have to commit +1 powerful card if you don't want to lose on even or want round control. Different factions (ab)use Red Coins differently, and the only way to have a say on how the game goes is by committing your powerful cards. Red coin players can also keep playing strong cards to get CA (winning on even), making it even worse for blue coins. On any day, I would prefer playing only red coin.

Playing Blue Coin should get some more handicap, because it is a handicap playing blue coin. I want all the stratagems to be buffed; instead of providing 5 points (TA and Magic Lamp), it should give 6 points. Strategems which give 3 point boost/damage with some additional advantage (NR, NG, the Purify Strategems, The damage and enemy by 3 strategems) all should do 4 points. Yes, it makes those strategems powerful, but it is still fine as Blue Coins needs the edge. The Strategem which allows looking at top 3 cards, should also boost the unit by 1 which we draw. MO Strategem should trigger the DW and also boost the unit by 1. SK strategem; I don't know how to buff it. May be discard and draw a card and boost the card drawn by 1? ST strategem should spawn two Dead-Eyes.

On top of that Blue Coin should get 4 mulligans instead of 3 (or red coin should get only 1 mulligan, which is horrible). Then, only then, I consider blue coin fair. Otherwise, getting blue coin already puts your game in 'HowTF am I going to get out of this R1 without losing on even and can I control the game length?'. So, what if your opinion about playing Blue Coin and how strategems are placed in the current meta?

 

[Payus]

I've been using Mask of Uroboros(SK stratagem) often. Imho it should work like Coral. You discard a card, if it's a special, deal 2 damage to a random enemy, also should damage by 1 if you discard a unit. Regardless if you're using Sacrificial Vanguard(Discard).

This would make it 4 points when discarding a skirmisher + deck thinning.

And as a byproduct SV would be buffed enough to be viable.

 

[rrc]

I've been using Mask of Uroboros(SK stratagem) often. Imho it should work like Coral. You discard a card, if it's a special, deal 2 damage to a random enemy, also should damage by 1 if you discard a unit. Regardless if you're using Sacrificial Vanguard(Discard).

This would make it 4 points when discarding a skirmisher + deck thinning.

And as a byproduct SV would be buffed enough to be viable.

Yes, nice take. I am least knowledgeable on SK to provide a good suggestion like yours. But this is a good suggestion!

 

[Payus]

Another solution would be to make all stratagems spawn and play a unit, like the SC one does.

For instance, the Ng one could spawn and play that 4p unit that locks.

The NR one could spawn the Cintrian Artificer

The Mo one could spawn and play an Endrega warrior

SY one could spawn and play Swindle

SC is fine.

SK one, what I suggested or spawn and play a Heymaey Skald.

As for the neutral ones:

I think the suggested buff to +1 is right.

 

[rrc]

...
SC is fine.
...

ST Strategem is not fine if everything else gets buffed. It is already weaker faction strategem (and only existing to trigger Scenario). If and when everything is getting buffed, ST strategem should spawn and play Half-Elf Hunter or Spawn and play Deadeye-Ambush which spawns a copy of itself.

 

[Tyr117]

ST Strategem is not fine if everything else gets buffed. It is already weaker faction strategem (and only existing to trigger Scenario). If and when everything is getting buffed, ST strategem should spawn and play Half-Elf Hunter or Spawn and play Deadeye-Ambush which spawns a copy of itself.

ST Strategem is the only one that is fine, it plays for 4 points yes, but the Synergy it brings is a lot more than that, Playing two elves is no joke, It can trigger Harmony, Trigger Scenario, Buff Elf Related Cards, Gives two bodies Which empowers wide boost, aswell as make that 5 Power elf to easily come out of the Deck etc etc, it is the only Strategem that gives an Edge, I usually have Problem winning R1 against this Strategem with a Deck that Synergizes with it, and most ST decks Synergize with it.
The Problem is, other Strategems don't play for a 4 Prov Card, this is the only one that does.

 

[Guest 4368268]

Blue coin is back to feeling as awful as ever and I've noticed the 'abuse' of it is back accordingly.
Almost all decks I face (Double ball, Greatswords, any variation of Syndicate, Lippy) are a nightmare on blue coin.
It's hard to measure how many points a 'collar' or one of these stratagems provide as it can vary so much, but tactical advantage itself needs to go up for sure (perhaps 2 charges of 3 points?)

Scenarios also really play into coinflip abuse. Using so many points on blue coins is a waste and at the same time if your opponent uses it on red you'll have a hard time keeping up.

 

[rrc]

ST Strategem is the only one that is fine, it plays for 4 points yes, but the Synergy it brings is a lot more than that, Playing two elves is no joke, It can trigger Harmony, Trigger Scenario, Buff Elf Related Cards, Gives two bodies Which empowers wide boost, aswell as make that 5 Power elf to easily come out of the Deck etc etc, it is the only Strategem that gives an Edge, I usually have Problem winning R1 against this Strategem with a Deck that Synergizes with it, and most ST decks Synergize with it.
The Problem is, other Strategems don't play for a 4 Prov Card, this is the only one that does.

[I don't claim to be a very good player and I make a lot of mistakes. But when it comes to ST I have a lot of knowledge as it is my main faction and would have played ST for 1000 hours may be. So, let me address why I think ST strategem is not as good as you think and why it also needs a buff.]

Triggering Harmony - This is ONLY used/useful to play Parcivel (Gnome) and immediately triggering Harmony to be out of removal range (and put him in good poison range). Triggering Harmony will anyhow happen for Elf when you play an elf from hand. This is not a big/significant point that 'this can trigger harmony' as anyhow an elf will be played and harmony for elf deploy will anyhow happen. Playing Scenario on Blue Coin is the exact point I wanted to make with this thread; because sometimes, it is so necessary to commit a huge win-con to survive blue coin. As a hard core ST, I would be OK if instead of playing Neopytes, if the strategems spawn two Deadeye-Ambush-even-if-it-spawns-one-in-each-row - not triggering any harmony or Scenario.

Buff Elf Related Cards: There are just two cards that benenit from more Elfs on board - Isengrim who was nerfed and Yeavin. It gives just +1 to Yeavin and +2 to Isengrim. But, these cards are your win-con. Trust me. I would not want to commit these cards in R1, but alas, sometimes I need to because of red-coin abuse. So, buffing Elf Related Cards is not actually an advantage.

Gives two bodies for wide boost: NEVER done by ST players, at least as far as I know. ST players never go for any other wide boost strategies (like the bronze which boosts all your allies). Isengrim is the only thing they attempt which I have addressed above.

Pull Alerene to board: No good ST player ever wants to bring Alerene on R1. You can watch YT videos or Streams from tournament. Alerene is your R3 tempo card. On Red coin abuse, yes, I would be OK to bring her, but on blue coin, I ideally want to keep her in deck to pull her later, unless I absolutely must to escape without losing on even. So, in that case, I would rather get two dead-eye-ambush cards spawned (even if on different rows to not be a good boost for Yeaven or Oak), than play the junk Neophytes.

Moreover, this thread is about boosting all strategems to make them at least 6 points point-slam or 4 points with some more nuances. In that regard, I would want to see ST strategems ALSO get a buff, even if it going to lose the 'play a card' thingy to get +2 points on board. Because 4 or 5 points is so low that playing blue coin is an absolute nightmare.

 

[DRK3]

@rrc Sorry for going offtopic here, but i just wanted to comment on this line of yours:

Gives two bodies for wide boost: NEVER done by ST players, at least as far as I know. ST players never go for any other wide boost strategies (like the bronze which boosts all your allies). Isengrim is the only thing they attempt which I have addressed above.

True, i have never seen ST players going for wide boosts with bone talismans. Why? Because players are too conformed with playing the same old cards, and dont try something else that is objectively better until some streamer proves its really good.

I HAVE played Elf wide boosts, because it just makes sense. Elfs can swarm the board almost as easily as Monsters, in 2/3 turns with leader ability, Scenario, Vernossiel and now they even have Vernossiel 2.0 a.k.a Eleyas. And unlike MO swarm, which is vulnerable to 1/2pt removals like Wild Boar of the Sea or Lacerate, with elves you swarm mostly with 3pt deadeyes which can survive all that!
And having a Triss TK for Bone Talisman is cheaper and almost always plays for more than a Oak - another card that is proof players just do what they're used to, being in every single ST deck as finisher, even when there are better options in point/provisions ratio.

I did stop playing that deck, not because it was bad but because it was too good and reliable, elves overall are too simple to play and if not for Double Waters and cheap poisons, they would be better than Harmony.

 

[omarlg]

I think the underlying issue with stratagems is to find a proper synergy with the played deck (in case of blue coin). This point goes in hand with two views:
1. Stratagems are thought just as an extra card.
2. Stratagems are thought that have to be used on the 1st turn.

An unaddressed point is that stratagems are non-interactable objects (they are not cards in the battlefield) that can be activated at anytime. This fact can be used as a psychological deterrent versus the opponent.

 

[Payus]

I'm not going to contest if the SC stratagem is underpowered as I lack experience with it, but 2 dead eyes is too much don't you think? @rrc

I just thought then SC stratagem was the way to go as it is in my eyes one of the best, I then tried to made the equivalent fro each faction.

Another wacky idea I had reading the comments:
What if the stratagems had resilience and could be used in R2?
Maybe it is a stupid idea, I'll let you roast me

 

[sfruzz]

The problem I have with stratagems is the fact that they are not very beginner friendly. They cost resources, but you use them only half of the time.

Stratagems are uninteractive (you cannot kill them with artifact removal), so I'm not sure I want to see them buffed.

 

[omarlg]

I'm not going to contest if the SC stratagem is underpowered as I lack experience with it, but 2 dead eyes is too much don't you think? @rrc

I just thought then SC stratagem was the way to go as it is in my eyes one of the best, I then tried to made the equivalent fro each faction.

Another wacky idea I had reading the comments:
What if the stratagems had resilience and could be used in R2?
Maybe it is a stupid idea, I'll let you roast me

I think actually it is a very good idea: a flexibility approach (with permanent resilience) instead of a powercreep approach.

 

[bojerbela]

Only a question: don't you think, that with a strategem buff Radeyah would be too strong? Éven with the deck building restriction?

 

[Tyr117]

The problem I have with stratagems is the fact that they are not very beginner friendly. They cost resources, but you use them only half of the time.

Stratagems are uninteractive (you cannot kill them with artifact removal), so I'm not sure I want to see them buffed.

You can't kill enemy cards in their hand either, As fast as the opponent plays it's Strategem it's going to be interactive.

Post automatically merged: May 20, 2020

Only a question: don't you think, that with a strategem buff Radeyah would be too strong? Éven with the deck building restriction?

They can just Nerf Radeyah accordingly, not a problem.

 

[DRK3]

You can't kill enemy cards in their hand either, As fast as the opponent plays it's Strategem it's going to be interactive.

Post automatically merged: May 20, 2020

They can just Nerf Radeyah accordingly, not a problem.

Actually, Stratagems arent interactive. They are not considered artefacts, they are their own card type and cant be destroyed in any way.

 

[rrc]

@rrc Sorry for going offtopic here, but i just wanted to comment on this line of yours:



True, i have never seen ST players going for wide boosts with bone talismans. Why? Because players are too conformed with playing the same old cards, and dont try something else that is objectively better until some streamer proves its really good.

I HAVE played Elf wide boosts, because it just makes sense. Elfs can swarm the board almost as easily as Monsters, in 2/3 turns with leader ability, Scenario, Vernossiel and now they even have Vernossiel 2.0 a.k.a Eleyas. And unlike MO swarm, which is vulnerable to 1/2pt removals like Wild Boar of the Sea or Lacerate, with elves you swarm mostly with 3pt deadeyes which can survive all that!
And having a Triss TK for Bone Talisman is cheaper and almost always plays for more than a Oak - another card that is proof players just do what they're used to, being in every single ST deck as finisher, even when there are better options in point/provisions ratio.

I did stop playing that deck, not because it was bad but because it was too good and reliable, elves overall are too simple to play and if not for Double Waters and cheap poisons, they would be better than Harmony.

I agree, with Scenario and Deadeye Ambush leader (who spawns three DEA), Elf Swarm + Bone Talisman sounds reasonable. But I disagree that Oak is not needed. Oak is the single most powerful card ST has and given how every single freaking ST archetype depends on stacking units on a single row, there is no reason not to have Oak in any deck. It is NOT because of some streamers, but because it is genuinely the most powerful card ST has (even after the nerf). I add Oak in my elf, dwarf, and even in movement decks as it is a very good card and gives a good removal option. Just assuming that people add Oak because they can't think for themselves is a far-fetched opinion IMHO.

I'm not going to contest if the SC stratagem is underpowered as I lack experience with it, but 2 dead eyes is too much don't you think? @rrc

I just thought then SC stratagem was the way to go as it is in my eyes one of the best, I then tried to made the equivalent fro each faction.

Another wacky idea I had reading the comments:
What if the stratagems had resilience and could be used in R2?
Maybe it is a stupid idea, I'll let you roast me

Two dead-eyes on the same row is in fact very powerful (as it gives +2 to Yeaven, and Oak), I agree. Spawning one in each row is OK when all strategems are buffed.

Only a question: don't you think, that with a strategem buff Radeyah would be too strong? Éven with the deck building restriction?

Yes, it would buff Redeyah and she has to be correspondingly nerfed or reworked.

 

[Tyr117]

Actually, Stratagems arent interactive. They are not considered artefacts, they are their own card type and cant be destroyed in any way.

Ofc you can't destroy them when they are not played yet, when opponent plays their Strategem, you can interact with it, just like any other Card.
Lamp Djinn, for example.

 

[Payus]

Ofc you can't destroy them when they are not played yet, when opponent plays their Strategem, you can interact with it, just like any other Card.
Lamp Djinn, for example.

Lamp Djinn and The SC on are the only ones you can "interact" with, but not really, they can only be interacted with if used.
None of the Stratagems can be interacted with. They are not units or artifacts, so nothing can destroy them, lock them, etc...

How would you interact with SK's, Ng's, Sy's, Mo's, Nr's and the rest of the neutral Stratagems?

 

[Tyr117]

Lamp Djinn and The SC on are the only ones you can "interact" with, but not really, they can only be interacted with if used.
None of the Stratagems can be interacted with. They are not units or artifacts, so nothing can destroy them, lock them, etc...

How would you interact with SK's, Ng's, Sy's, Mo's, Nr's and the rest of the neutral Stratagems?

Some of the Stratagems are like Special cards, you can't interact with a Special card either, being able to interact with Strategems before they are played is like interacting with enemy cards in their hands, It's quite simple, you can't interact with them when they are not played, just like any card in the game, obviously they shouldn't be touchable when you haven't played them yet, some Stratagems work as units, some as Special, as fast as they are played, their effects are on board and you can interact with them.