The Modding Community

[Guest 2364765]

The Downgrade we can fix. It's just matter of time until they give us the key, the Redkit.

Redkit is going to happen, simply because CDPR has the plans to license their engine to 3rd parties, thus they're going to have a version that can be given out to 3rd party studios.

Question is whether there will be a version fit for individual home-users.

 

[web-head91]

Redkit is going to happen, simply because CDPR has the plans to license their engine to 3rd parties, thus they're going to have a version that can be given out to 3rd party studios.

Question is whether there will be a version fit for individual home-users.

i can see multiple ways they could go about it.
and like you said, the first step would be definitly to release a REDkit 2, which could serve as a sort of beta test for the whole REDengine 3.
with the modders feedback, they can continue to polish it and improove upon it, maybe add a feature or two from time to time. Another thing they could do, which would be really great, is to have their modding software be compatible with both TW3 and cyberpunk 2077, that'd be a smart way to taking modding to the next level and make the learning curve cover modding aspects of not just one game, but of multiple ones. something that maybe even bethesda hasn't done (for all i know is that they released a specific modding kit with each game they made, sure they're kinda similar, but they're not backwards compatible.)

 

[Nolenthar]

To be honest, I'm not too sure what's the fuss with the RedKit. When you check the mods released for TW2 to date (at least the most endorsed, hence the most popular) , I couldn't find a single mod that we cannot already do in TW3. Mostly textures, gameplay, and a few models. The Witcher 1 had lots of content, especially fan made quests which neither TW2 nor TW3 has, but I may be missing something with this messiah that this community (at least the vocal ones) seems to expect to solve all their problems.

 

[GuyNwah]

There is something of a missed expectation with REDKit. Many forum members were expecting it would make creating mods an easy proposition, accessible to players without experience in mod authoring or 3D graphics tools.. It is doubtful that anything of the kind was ever a possibility. Other forum members have taken the opportunity to post angry and spiteful criticism of CDPR. Meanwhile, individuals skilled in modding are using the tools actually provided to create worthwhile mods.

Tempest. Teapot.

 

[web-head91]

To be honest, I'm not too sure what's the fuss with the RedKit. When you check the mods released for TW2 to date (at least the most endorsed, hence the most popular) , I couldn't find a single mod that we cannot already do in TW3. Mostly textures, gameplay, and a few models. The Witcher 1 had lots of content, especially fan made quests which neither TW2 nor TW3 has, but I may be missing something with this messiah that this community (at least the vocal ones) seems to expect to solve all their problems.

it's quite simple:
1. TW2 wasn't as popular as TW3, and therefore people didn't care much about it.
2. The REDkit was released 2 years after the game's release, and by that time it was way too late
3. The REDkit was kinda buggy and wasn't very easy to use, unlike skyrim's creation kit
4. TW2 is a more linear game, and therefore not adapted to heavy modding.


all these reasons factor into the fact that there aren't that many mods for TW2, and why we have waaaaaay more mods for TW3, and that's just with extremely basic and bare bones "modding tools" aka MODkit, and @Sarcen ' s "Mod Editor" which without it, 90% of what we can do today in terms of moddability would've been impossible (here's a my previous post as a reminder: http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/63041-The-Modding-Community?p=1983183&viewfull=1#post1983183)
Things have changed today. people want to create mods and are yearning for better modding support, no matter what form it is, to make even greater ideas happen.
it's like you haven't seen the amount of modders here, who despite being skilled, have struggled to no end, just to make that tiny little modification they made work. it's like you sir, are blind to the hardships of people who really wanted to make something, but couldn't because of the lack of proper tools.
So yes, it's not the same situation whatsoever.

---------- Updated at 09:38 PM ----------

i'll just put this here as well:

Eh, i imagine that is due to few reasons:
- A lot was promised and very little was delivered by CDPR
- Mods are bothersome to create and install, making both creators and users unwilling to test mods unless they really want to use them.
-"Modkit" is very basic, doesn't cover all file types and lacks GUI.
-Script mods are bothersome to create, often create conflicts and WScript lacks any documentation whatsoever and help from CDPR on basic topics like creating custom classes that would automatically instance themselves (along with working timers in custom classes) never came.
-Mods cannot add "new" content, entire modding pipeline allows us only to modify existing files. To add new files you have to mount them as DLC, which again, was a community-invented hack.

We were basically given "something", because "something" was promised but from that point on, we're on our own. Lacking tools, documentation which in result turned into lack of will to create mods.

I mean oh-come-on, why do we even get WCC_Lite, what's the point in giving us a tool to modify selected range of file formats. You cannot even make a mod to add hairworks hair to main cast, because we can't convert Apex files into RED Engine's proprietary hair format.

By all means, kudos and congrats on getting multiple GOTY awards, you've earned it (besides the fact it crashes video drivers for a strict range of NVIDIA users).
Truly a master piece in many aspects - but the mods flopped and if CDPR really intends to stop in this matter at where they stand now, Witcher 3 will be done and forgotten within a month after B&W release.

 

[nemanja_pozega]

To be honest, I'm not too sure what's the fuss with the RedKit. When you check the mods released for TW2 to date (at least the most endorsed, hence the most popular) , I couldn't find a single mod that we cannot already do in TW3. Mostly textures, gameplay, and a few models. The Witcher 1 had lots of content, especially fan made quests which neither TW2 nor TW3 has, but I may be missing something with this messiah that this community (at least the vocal ones) seems to expect to solve all their problems.

I understand your point and why you might think so, but here are the facts for you.

1. Withcer 3 was way way more popular, hence attracted more moders capable of using lower end software the ModKIT really is compared to the redkit
2. The RedKit2 was by my account noted by most of the moders who created the more popular mods to be absolutly required for any serious modding and these modders are wiling to make great stuff judging by how well they worked with mod kit.
3. this is getting tiresome, but the RedKIT2 was promest by CDP officialy in more then one occasion. there was a broken version leaked not long ago even, so it's reasonable to assume that it was at least planed for release. Even if the community may just be a few vocal people, frankly it's CDP fault so these vocal moders have every right to be just that

 

[web-head91]

and this:

Btw, let's remember that it doesn't even handle textures properly. The only texture maps you can reliably mod are diffuse maps, meaning only the very simplest texture mods are able to be made by most modders. (There is a way to do the other maps too, remembering that they are SHARED with other armors/outfits/whatever you're modding so what you can do is ridiculously limited, but it requires third party software, incredible time and patience, and learning how the system works - without any sort of documentation provided by CDPR. So most people don't, won't, or can't do it.)

But there are those of us working hard to bring you guys the best mods possible despite all the adversity. We would really, really like CDPR to throw us a metaphorical bone here when they have the time, though, and give us documentation on exactly how textures work. I know Modkit updates are coming, but we can't count on a date for those and we don't want the community to die out any more than it already has before they come. Even a post on here explaining it in detail would be wonderful.

and that's from the head of "the School of the Roach" team, the guys who made probably the most extensive Mod for TW3 yet. (at least in my opinion)
my point is: skilled or not, without, proper tools you can never hope for anything more than mere re-textures (if that can work).
and having proper modding support not only will make the job easier for the modding community, but also help it grow and attract new talents from other modding communities such as TES or Fallout.
So please @Nolenthar , stop saying nonesense without first considering the facts and feedback of the current modders.
in fact, if you think that the modding support we have is fine, as well as the dying state of the modding community is fine as well, then this thread is probably isn't for you. this thread exists because we want change, not the other way around.

 

[essenthy]

well if i had to cite one single reason as to way modkit is an an absolute torture to work with is simply the testing time it require, its like the dark ages of modding , if you want to do anything, test anything, modify anything, every single time you have to pack, generate meta data, and sometime create texture cache ect ...

every single one of this step can take up to 10-15~sc on average, depending on your machine power and if you're on an SSD or not, then you boot up the game, then load a save game, and see if what you did is correct, because you better guess right cause we have basically zero documentation about what does what, obviously making simple texture modes is quite straightforward, but anything other then that its all wild guess, CDPR use their own engine, with very specific stuff to it

so not only it take a crapload of time to do anything, but you are not even sure about what you are doing in the first place, i spent a lot of time testing things with sarcen editor, and yet i can barely say that i understand how anything work @100

so how REDKIT can solve this ? simple because REDKIt allow you to see your modification " live ", no more packing or anything, you load a zone from the game and start doing your thing, loading a zone in REDKIT probably take less time then starting the game normally

and to give an idea about what sarcen editor allow you to do exactly, imagine you have REDKIT, and you create a zone, with sub zones, and specific envs for sub zones, specific lighting on certain parts, specific weather ect ect .... you do all that with a UI with REDKIT, and it automatically generate games systeme files ( like env, w2l ect ... ) for that zone that you just created

what sarcen editor allow you do is it can open every single one of these " system files " and you can edit them by hand freely, something that you are not supposed to do and cant do with REDKIT, because it has a proper UI and modify values with dependency automatically

usually when modders create their own tools and the modding community start to work with them, they kinda accept this kind of " time waste " because simply the devs dont support modding on their game, but when it come from peoples who've been saying countless time that they support their modding community like CDPR ... its frustrating to say the least

 

[web-head91]

well if i had to cite one single reason as to way modkit is an an absolute torture to work with is simply the testing time it require, its like the dark ages of modding , if you want to do anything, test anything, modify anything, every single time you have to pack, generate meta data, and sometime create texture cache ect ...

every single one of this step can take up to 10-15~sc on average, depending on your machine power and if you're on an SSD or not, then you boot up the game, then load a save game, and see if what you did is correct, because yea better guess right cause we have basically zero documentation about what does what, obviously making simple texture modes is quite straightforward, but anything other then that its all wild guest, CDPR use their own engine, with very specific stuff to it

so not only it take a crapload of time to do anything, but you are not even sure about what you are doing in the first place

so how REDKIT can solve this ? simple because REDKIt allow you to see your modification " live ", no more packing or anything, you load a zone from the game and start doing your thing, loading a zone in REDKIT probably take less time then starting the game normally

usually when modders create their own tools and the modding community start to work with them, they kinda accept this kind of " time waste " because simply the devs dont support modding on their game, but when it come from peoples who've been saying countless time that they support their modding community like CDPR ..

and there you have it ladies and gentlemen !
@Nolenthar and @GuyNwah , as you can see, along the two quotes i provided from hundreds of quotes of respected modders, a better modding support including better modding tools, a REDkit 2 if you will, is a necessity.
this is not only to make the work of fellow modders easier, but also to open new frontiers and possibilities of modding, as well as appeal to new modders and other talented people with expertise.
honestly, i don't think it can be any clearer than this.

 

[essenthy]

if i had to describe for example how hard it is to edit env right know, its like trying to paint a very detailed nature scene with boxing gloves while closing one eye, and you can only see your result at mid night , now imagine what it would be to make " new quests " with scripts and all, just impossible

if you still wonder why there are very few advanced or creative mods, then think about this

 

[Nolenthar]

it's quite simple:
1. TW2 wasn't as popular as TW3, and therefore people
2. The REDkit was released 2 years after the game's release
3. The REDkit was kinda buggy and wasn't very easy to use, unlike skyrim's creation kit
4. TW2 is a more linear game, and therefore not adapted to heavy modding

1. Well, if it only came from popularity, why TW1 has more "complex mods" than TW2 to begin with ? Surely, TW2 was more popular than TW1.
2. 2 years might be exagerated, I believe it was released soon after the EE edition, but again, I don't have the dates in mind so you may be right. In any case, given the popularity of TW3 (which obviously means a lot of people were expecting TW3, and may have used their teeth on TW2 to wait), I'd still expect more work such as Kingship of the Wolf.
3. Yes, because it's inherited from a Professional Tool. And given that it was not easy to use, I'd argue it WILL not be easy to use. Again, TW3 is not Skyrim, will never be, and you're yet again comparing a current-gen engine, constantly evolving, with a dying one. A big number of Fallout 4 mods, for instance, are copy paste of Skyrim. You should probably give CD Project Maturity before they can come close to this.
4. Neither is TW3, as it's still a very linear / not sandboxed game. There is still a lot of room for side quests in either game.

Things have changed today. people want to create mods and are yearning for better modding support, no matter what form it is, to make even greater ideas happen.

How have things changed today ? Modding and PC gaming are one and as old as one another. Since PC gaming exists, people have been attempting to mod it. Counter Strike was born from modding, as a very popular and known example. Modding was a lot more common 10 years ago than it is now. If anything, modding is dying, players mod less, and consumes video games more, like console players do. TW1 was modded more because it was released when people modded more. Nothing related to popularity there.

No really, I believe, like you highlight in your post by quoting Skaci-PL, that mostly, the RedKit is a matter of expectations and self entitlement. There is no way it can go well for CDPR : if they release it, we will see a few mods, because it will be either "too complex", or "too late". People will make excuses to explain why after whining so much, not much have come of it, like you did for TW2.

---------- Updated at 11:08 PM ----------

and there you have it ladies and gentlemen !
@Nolenthar and @GuyNwah , as you can see, along the two quotes i provided from hundreds of quotes of respected modders, a better modding support including better modding tools, a REDkit 2 if you will, is a necessity.
this is not only to make the work of fellow modders easier, but also to open new frontiers and possibilities of modding, as well as appeal to new modders and other talented people with expertise.
honestly, i don't think it can be any clearer than this.

You're unfortunately not proving anything we don't already know. Yes, a RedKit will help modding : the real question is how modding TW3 would overall gain from it. What we would see then, that we don't see now, and to what extent. TW2 experience has proven that overall, we won't see that much more content than we already do. It will probably be easier for a few modders stubborn enough to learn the RedKit, but will it be enough ?

No, the reality is that a moddable game is moddable from scratch. Take the example of Never Winter Nights : the game came with a level editor, built straight into it. Arma is another example where the company aimed for Fan created content. TW3 is not one of those. CDPR gave us a tool allowing to uncook assets and recook them. Editing the proprietary format which are .env files and other Hairworks file were not part of the deal, so we couldn't exactly blame them for not telling us how to do. Technically, the reverse engineering made by Sarcen could probably become problematic if a guy started to gain profit from modifying proprietary assets (probably why Essenthy was smart enough to avoid any "donation button" with his mod). And for all we know, we have no idea how much CDPR want modders and competitors to know about their engines and its specificity.

 

[HarelMor]

1. Well, if it only came from popularity, why TW1 has more "complex mods" than TW2 to begin with ? Surely, TW2 was more popular than TW1.
2. 2 years might be exagerated, I believe it was released soon after the EE edition, but again, I don't have the dates in mind so you may be right. In any case, given the popularity of TW3 (which obviously means a lot of people were expecting TW3, and may have used their teeth on TW2 to wait), I'd still expect more work such as Kingship of the Wolf.

Have you ever tried to use redkit? because your comparison between witcher 1 and witcher 2 modding tools is not really fair. The redkit was more complex and gave a lot of great features, but the main problem with the redkit was that it cooked the entire game assets making mod compatibility impossible, you had to manually combine mods, and the size of the mods was at least 1 gb. if a person wanted to add a chest and a quest to the base game, a mod that should take about 1-5 mb will use 1.5-3 gb of space, and this mod will not be compatible with mods like full combat rebalance or any other mod that change the gameplay or any other asset in the redkit.

 

[essenthy]

To be honest, I'm not too sure what's the fuss with the RedKit. When you check the mods released for TW2 to date (at least the most endorsed, hence the most popular) , I couldn't find a single mod that we cannot already do in TW3. Mostly textures, gameplay, and a few models. The Witcher 1 had lots of content, especially fan made quests which neither TW2 nor TW3 has, but I may be missing something with this messiah that this community (at least the vocal ones) seems to expect to solve all their problems.

you clearly have no idea about how REDKIT work, let alone modding the game without it

 

[Nolenthar]

you clearly have no idea about how REDKIT work, let alone modding the game without it

That's your opinion, and given that you're a talented TW3 modder, I wouldn't argue having less experience than you have, but I have a very thorough knowledge of the steps required to mod TW3 to begin with, and what how a built-in editor would help achieve it, nor I'm even arguing that in the first place.

What I'm arguing is what the TW3 community would really gain from it, in the middle to long term. Again, I'm simply stating the obvious : TW2 had a RedKit released (it was, like for TW3, requested over & over by the community, and a source of anger) but a few years after it was, the work which wouldn't have been possible otherwise is still an exception more than a rule. After all, one of the louder people defending with soul & body the RedKit (@web-head91) is not even a modder to start with, yet would happily tell to all of us how much this would mean that TW3 would suddenly see gazillons of mods like Fallout does, yet we all know TW3 doesn't have the ground for crazy modding. CP2077 ? which may well be more of a sandbox than TW3 is, who knows, why not.

 

[essenthy]

That's your opinion, and given that you're a talented TW3 modder, I wouldn't argue having less experience than you have, but I have a very thorough knowledge of the steps required to mod TW3 to begin with, and what how a built-in editor would help achieve it, nor I'm even arguing that in the first place.

What I'm arguing is what the TW3 community would really gain from it, in the middle to long term. Again, I'm simply stating the obvious : TW2 had a RedKit released (it was, like for TW3, requested over & over by the community, and a source of anger) but a few years after it was, the work which wouldn't have been possible otherwise is still an exception more than a rule. After all, one of the louder people defending with soul & body the RedKit (@web-head91) is not even a modder to start with, yet would happily tell to all of us how much this would mean that TW3 would suddenly see gazillons of mods like Fallout does, yet we all know TW3 doesn't have the ground for crazy modding. CP2077 ? which may well be more of a sandbox than TW3 is, who knows, why not.

i have no idea how you can be so negative, and blindly assume so much stuff about W3 modders themselves , her's simple math and logic for you to help you :

modder make a mod with current tool, he know he can do not only better but more, but he cant because of current tools limitation

you give that modders a full fledged editor like REDKIT that remove pretty much all the obscure obstacle that he had

??

profit

we're not talking about profitability or the future of W3 itself, we're talking REDKIT, and why CDPR didnt release it yet despit all the talk before, thats it, i let CDPR themselve judge if its profitable for them or not, we're just modders asking for decent tools if CDPR really 1) care about us 2) want their game to be moded

if they dont want to release it, then let it be heard in an official statement from the devs who talked about it ( and again not throw the poor marcin to the pool of anger ) instead of letting peoples hoping and waiting in confusion

as i already said before am neither angry or waiting anything special myself, but am sure ther's a lot of peoples who do

 

[Nolenthar]

i have no idea how you can be so negative, and blindly assume so much stuff about W3 modders themselves , her's simple math and logic for you to help you :

There ain't any negativity there, none intended at least. I simply trust CDPR to do what's right, and I also believe they know how to use their resources better than we/the community do. I've been following them since TW1, I own pretty much any piece of software they released, from TW1/TW2/TW3 & the adventure game on tablet. I order via GoG whenever the game I want is available there. And I grow easily tired of people forever complaining and wanting more, turning this company's words into unbreakable vows, assuming everything will be given to them.

I do certainly hope Red Kit is released and turn into a success. I'm just not too sure about it, because studying modding community in general, most mods released rotate around textures (nude ones being the top), gameplay, and a bit of modelling. I thus believe we already have what's needed to deliver 95% of the mods that will ever get requested. Meshes, when I see what gets released, between the Zelda, Yeti, & other Final Fantasy swords, I'm definitely not holding my breath for that. It's hard enough to build a 3D model, even with the right tool, so I don't think we will see so many new stunningly good armors and lore friendly swords. Then there is the quests : but in times like ours, when the current quests are fully voiced, in many languages, I'd not really expect to see so many quests which are as good as the vanilla ones, if we see any, and I'd bet this can be counted on the fingers of one or two hands in 1 year or so.

 

[HarelMor]

@Nolenthar How can you assume so much, there are many types of mods that can help the witcher 3, like fixing some game behavior is some aspects like adding more life to the road, seeing wagons (if possible) riding on the roads, some adventurers enter ruins, bandits attacking merchants, werewolves prowling the forests and roads at night. what about more dungeons, new quests. There are so many untold stories and interesting location in the witcher 3 like what happned in Toderas. New lands like creating vizima and its outskirts, creating flotsam, brokilon forest and so on. The witcher 1 and 2 are linear games and new adventures means starting from scratch, some players don't like it, they want to play with their favorite character, the one they invested a lot of time in, an open world game will give the player the ability to do so, and the modder can create reasons for this adventure in the currant game world. It give the modder the ability to create interesting changes to the world. Some of the mods will o.k. but some will be incredible.

 

[Ðarkstar]

The time and patience to make a mod for TW2 was incredibly disproportionate to what you were actually putting into the game, but you could still do more with that Redkit than what we can currently do with our Modkit.

 

[Nolenthar]

@Nolenthar How can you assume so much, there are many types of mods that can help the witcher 3, like fixing some game behavior is some aspects like adding more life to the road, seeing wagons (if possible) riding on the roads, some adventurers enter ruins, bandits attacking merchants, werewolves prowling the forests and roads at night. what about more dungeons, new quests. There are so many untold stories and interesting location in the witcher 3 like what happned in Toderas. New lands like creating vizima and its outskirts, creating flotsam, brokilon forest and so on. The witcher 1 and 2 are linear games and new adventures means starting from scratch, some players don't like it, they want to play with their favorite character, the one they invested a lot of time in, an open world game will give the player the ability to do so, and the modder can create reasons for this adventure in the currant game world. It give the modder the ability to create interesting changes to the world. Some of the mods will o.k. but some will be incredible.

And yet again, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying, irrelevant of how I write it. Basically, what you tell me is : there will be an infinity of things we can do with the RedKit, so many things TW3 will go from being GOTY to being the best game ever released on PC. What I'm telling you is that even though I fully believe a few enthusiasts may create a few quests, I have no reasons to believe that the RedKit will suddenly become a piece of very user friendly mod tool that anyone and his sister will be able to use easily straight away.

The time and patience to make a mod for TW2 was incredibly disproportionate to what you were actually putting into the game, but you could still do more with that Redkit than what we can currently do with our Modkit.

You're proving my point just above. Why is this community assuming that an updated RedKit will not be disproportionately hard and complex to use ? The RedKit is not meant to be used by newbies, it was built to create games made by a studio.

That's just my whole point : people seems to assume a lot of things around the RedKit, basically, they are "dreaming" of what the RedKit will be. The only experience we have with the RedKit is TW2, and as you say it yourself, it was not exactly easy to use.

 

[essenthy]

What I'm telling you is that even though I fully believe a few enthusiasts may create a few quests, I have no reasons to believe that the RedKit will suddenly become a piece of very user friendly mod tool that anyone and his sister will be able to use easily straight away.

you should stop just here, you're just digging deeper than Ubisoft at this point

anyone who's already modding the game with current tools already have a good understanding about how things work, not only that but they are doing it without a UI, now you want these peoples who are obviously better at understanding the game system than you to not adopt REDKIT wich is basically an easy mod for modding the game because " oh lord a UI that am not familiar with ! " ? are you serious ?

peoples are already editing/creating float values and variables by hand, you would do that with a slider in REDKIT and with direct result live in the editor in front of you, without packing, without starting the game, without guessing, without testing

same for scripting, you would see direct result of your script, no more random testing and packing

now tel me again how REDKIT would not benifit any modder

some modders are less advanced than others and would not even try if there are no proper tools with a proper UI, and ther's ALOT of them, REDKIT would pretty much double if not more the number of potential modders and mods

and even the very advanced and ambitious modders like the crazy guys who literally created an Addon for Skyrim, do you really think that they would bother and waste time if there was no proper tools ?