The Modding Community

[HarelMor]

You're proving my point just above. Why is this community assuming that an updated RedKit will not be disproportionately hard and complex to use ? The RedKit is not meant to be used by newbies, it was built to create games made by a studio.

RedKit had few difficult and complex aspects but many of them ware intuitive and easy to understand and create, i never seen a game that had easyer pathing, easy way to paint landscape and vegetation and a lot more.

I like to create new lands and add quests, something that i can't do with the current tools. I don't mind the complexity of the editor, i will treat it as a steep learning curve, i will look for tutorials and experiment, but all i ask from CDPR is that the editor will only bake what i created and not the entire game data. i have some interesting ideas for quests in the brakilon forest, i have some ideas on how the forest will look like but i can't do anything with the currant tools.
If you ask me if i am willing to spend time in order to create mod then as an example my skyrim mod took me 6 months to create and i was willing to enhance it but i got addicted to the witcher and couldn't go back to skyrim.

 

[Nolenthar]

you should stop just here, you're just digging deeper than Ubisoft at this point

anyone who's already modding the game with current tools already have a good understanding about how things work, not only that but they are doing it without a UI, now you want these peoples who are obviously better at understanding the game system than you to not adopt REDKIT wich is basically an easy mod for modding the game because " oh lord a UI that am not familiar with ! " ? are you serious ?

peoples are already editing/creating float values and variables by hand, you would do that with a slider in REDKIT and with direct result live in the editor in front of you, without packing, without starting the game, without guessing, without testing

same for scripting, you would see direct result of your script, no more random testing and packing

now tel me again how REDKIT would not benifit any modder

some modders are less advanced than others and would not even try if there are no proper tools with a proper UI, and ther's ALOT of them, REDKIT would pretty much double if not more the number of potential modders and mods

and even the very advanced and ambitious modders like the crazy guys who literally created an Addon for Skyrim, do you really think that they would bother and waste time if there was no proper tools ?

To answer you, I'm simply gonna put it on the fact English is not your primary language, and thus simply believe you don't understand my point not because you don't want to, but because this is something you simply cannot do. And please, there is nothing personal in that conversation. It isn't centered around you, me, or anyone to begin with. I'm speaking about a modding community in its globality. You are entitled to believe I cannot understand the game system, and that it's the reason why I'm explaining you RedKit will not change so many things, but do not assume on people you do not know.

First off, where have you read that I deny the RedKit will help the modding community ? I do not deny it, and the proof is that talented guys with enough time on their hands, like yourself, have already achieved quite a lot without it. What I do however deny is that it will be easy enough to create things the community have not been able to do in a proportion that will matter. Because it doesn't really matter if 5 guys use the RedKit correctly enough to build great mods. It matters if 100, 1000 guys do this. Will it happen at this point ? I simply don't think it will. Why do I believe this ? I simply state facts from past experience : The Witcher 2 is the closest example to The Witcher 3 and the Red Kit I can find. Other Video Games are also a good example. Most mods created are texture (already doable), gameplay (already doable via xml & scripts, and believe me, scripting is not about seeing live results, it's mostly about logic, and you can do that via simple logic as you code, testing serves mostly one purpose : show you scenarios you didn't think about while coding. There is little trial & error in programming and scripting. The trial & error exists in the .env files you have edited because no one told you how they work to begin with, and you don't know how a parameter would affect specific scenarios before you have tried - programming and scripting is totally different, the skeleton and algorythm is in your brain. At best, the RedKit may come with framework for the scripting language to be used with programs such as IntelliJ, but I wouldn't expect to see a lot of UI around the scripting to be fair), and meshes. That's my facts.

---------- Updated at 05:33 PM ----------

RedKit had few difficult and complex aspects but many of them ware intuitive and easy to understand and create, i never seen a game that had easyer pathing, easy way to paint landscape and vegetation and a lot more.

I like to create new lands and add quests, something that i can't do with the current tools. I don't mind the complexity of the editor, i will treat it as a steep learning curve, i will look for tutorials and experiment, but all i ask from CDPR is that the editor will only bake what i created and not the entire game data. i have some interesting ideas for quests in the brakilon forest, i have some ideas on how the forest will look like but i can't do anything with the currant tools.
If you ask me if i am willing to spend time in order to create mod then as an example my skyrim mod took me 6 months to create and i was willing to enhance it but i got addicted to the witcher and couldn't go back to skyrim.

Oh, and I'm sure you will do just that, and you will deliver an awesome work, and I'll be sure to follow any piece of work you release and be happy to test & play it. I'm not arguing the fact talented guys, with enough time and will on their hands, will create things we can't hope of creating at this point. I'm simply saying this : I do not believe enough people will do it for this to matter on a large scale. Skyrim / Elder Scrolls modding community is strong because it's big. I'm not too sure TW3 modding community is big enough to really build around a complicated Red Kit. And when CDPR released the mod kit, they simply thought the same than I do : if we give them the required tool to mod scripts and textures, they will do 95% of what they can do anyway. That's my all and final say.

 

[Mezziaz]

I simply trust CDPR to do what's right

I used to do that too, can't say I do that anymore sadly. In fact there is no game company that I trust.

That is not only because of the lack of the Redkit that were promised (as well as other broken promises), but because they aren't communicating with us clearly and straight up why we aren't getting it.

 

[erxv]

gameplay (already doable via xml & scripts)

still HIGHLY limited.... you know what i would do to my random encounters mod? make new guard areas for monsters, new patrol points, make them behave naturally....

right now, even getting spawned monsters to move is so stupid it hurts.... i have to spawn a freaking bunny and make the monster attack it for it to even move

ive been trying to get something like this:

to work for months now, and all i can do is hack and hack and hack....

it should be possible to add behavior trees and actions to any actor but if you try to do it with scripts right now, most just dont work.

if i could edit behaviour trees, spawnsets, combat and exploration attributes, idle behaviours and many many more files, it would be 100 times easier... ive even PMd the reds and asked them for info on how to do these things properly, with no answers..

and how did i get the gryphon to fly away? i brute force it (with tens of stupid hacks) to attack a freaking bunny 100 meters away and hope that it doesnt bug out like it does half the time....



PS: i dont think anyone cares if EVERYONE wont be able to use redkit, i surely dont care if the people who cant even merge files with scriptmerger cannot make mods, i dont think we will lose out on much there.... i cant imagine how many good ideas for mods were just abandoned because even the necessary Sarcens mod editor couldnt open some type of file or it had unknownBytes in it.....

i mean, we cant even change the color of Quen for crying out loud, sure you can change some of the colors, but the explosion bubble effect is still the same.......

 

[Martindnewton]

I used to do that too, can't say I do that anymore sadly. In fact there is no game company that I trust.

That is not only because of the lack of the Redkit that were promised (as well as other broken promises), but because they aren't communicating with us clearly and straight up why we aren't getting it.

If we was honest, this was the worry about going multiplatform not the same company anymore, can still remember with dread some of those PR statements prior to release.

Even if redkit is available at some stage after blood and wine it will be too late people wont care, similar to Witcher 2 they said they learned this from last time too sigh.

 

[Nolenthar]

still HIGHLY limited.... you know what i would do to my random encounters mod? make new guard areas for monsters, new patrol points, make them behave naturally....

I can understand this, but I believe Random Encounters is much more than a gameplay overhaul mod. It's a "world" mod, and thus I wouldn't tag it as "already doable via xmls & scripts". Again, I've never said, nor will ever, the Red Kit will not bring tons of possibilities to this world we love. I've argued this had to be a priority for CDPR because I'm not too sure the community will be able to produce the mods it currently believe it will. To take your example : surely, Red Kit will help produce a Random Encounters mod. Will it be enough for more than a few enthusiasts like you ? I understand you may not care about it, but your time surely is limited, you won't be able to produce all the mods by yourself, or a few guys in SOTR.

---------- Updated at 06:18 PM ----------

I used to do that too, can't say I do that anymore sadly. In fact there is no game company that I trust.

That is not only because of the lack of the Redkit that were promised (as well as other broken promises), but because they aren't communicating with us clearly and straight up why we aren't getting it.

At the end of the day, CDPR owes us one thing : producing games worth our money. By producing the Game of the Year and also the most beautiful game I've played this year, for a price tag lower than any new games I bought this year, they did just that. There is a limit to my expectations. I'm a grown up individual, and I've learned that perfection is not from this world. At this point in time, they are the gaming company which can claim to be closest to it, and thus, I'll be simply content about it.

 

[HarelMor]

But you forgot one important thing, good mods bring new players to the game. Some of the mods created with Sarcens mod editor brought people to this game, think what will happen when modders will have real modding possibilities. i understand your reasoning and i got to admit that i am still willing to believe that the reds will give us redkit after blood and whine, i hope that the reds will learn from their mistakes and create a good wiki and vids for the new redkit, let us learn from the masters, the game will benefits from the modders knowledge..

 

[TookaFace]

It depends on what CDRP want, if you want to build a modder community over the long term (several games, the community around Bethesda has not appeared by chance), they are obliged to provide a quality tool to pique modders curiosities at first. And that's what they say.

After they can also change their mind, no problem, but it must be said.

Maybe it does not give the same results as for Bethesda games at first, but it will lay the foundation for other games CDRP.


Lots of modder left the game because of the limited tool.
I mean, if there's ever modkit / redkit quality, there will never be a big community.


Is this really what they want? I dunno.

 

[Mezziaz]

I can understand this, but I believe Random Encounters is much more than a gameplay overhaul mod. It's a "world" mod, and thus I wouldn't tag it as "already doable via xmls & scripts". Again, I've never said, nor will ever, the Red Kit will not bring tons of possibilities to this world we love. I've argued this had to be a priority for CDPR because I'm not too sure the community will be able to produce the mods it currently believe it will. To take your example : surely, Red Kit will help produce a Random Encounters mod. Will it be enough for more than a few enthusiasts like you ? I understand you may not care about it, but your time surely is limited, you won't be able to produce all the mods by yourself, or a few guys in SOTR.

---------- Updated at 06:18 PM ----------



At the end of the day, CDPR owes us one thing : producing games worth our money. By producing the Game of the Year and also the most beautiful game I've played this year, for a price tag lower than any new games I bought this year, they did just that. There is a limit to my expectations. I'm a grown up individual, and I've learned that perfection is not from this world. At this point in time, they are the gaming company which can claim to be closest to it, and thus, I'll be simply content about it.

Believe me, CDPR is still one of my favorite devs, I just don't trust them 110% as I did before, they did almost everything right with with The Witcher 2 (that game is near perfection to me) and they looked to keep that up for long time during the development of The Witcher 3. It looked too good to be true, which is was in the end but I believed everything they showed and said cause I no reason to doubt them after TW2. I knew they could pull off those visuals, I knew they could provide us with a Redkit because they had done so on the past.

All of these unfortunate things that happened would had alright to me if they just communicated with us the fans why everything went down as is it did. As they used to be not long ago where they seemed super open about everything. Help me understand you CDPR!

I'm very happy for them that TW3 are getting all these awards and everything but I want the game to be remembered and constantly improved for years to come, better mod tools can make that a possibility. Fans can build the game of their dreams and great mod releases will give the game even more publicity which helps CDPR. Everybody wins.

 

[Nolenthar]

But you forgot one important thing, good mods bring new players to the game. Some of the mods created with Sarcens mod editor brought people to this game, think what will happen when modders will have real modding possibilities

Given simple mathematics using Nexus "downloads counter", if mods brought 10 000 people to this game, that would be an optimistic figure. Out of 6 000 000, that's a drop in the ocean I'm afraid. CDPR is not an alien, or an exception. They exist to make games & money (not necessarily in that order). If modding brought more money than, let's say, marketing, graphics, extensions or excellent gaming experience, it would have been there at launch. No, I'm afraid modding is a niche, even in games like Fallout 4 (even if 200 000 people plays with mods in FO4, that's still a small margin of the total population), and there is not so much money to be obtained this way (remember the attempt of monetization of Skyrim mods on steam, which failed badly), not unless you build your whole game around modding and fan made content (cf Arma)

 

[essenthy]

[Sard Edit: Yeah, this was too much. Regardless of how you feel about someone's opinions, people around here are not welcome to indulge in offensive attacks. Break time.]

 

[HarelMor]

What about ideas? modders see the game from a different perspective then the company for them it is a labor of love and will spend a lot of times to perfect the game. Skyrim combat system is a dumb down deadly reflex. Many ideas made by modders can return in the next game, and those ideas came for free and worth money for the company.
As said before it take time to build a modding community, when the witcehr 3 was released a lot of modders waited for the redkit in order to perfect the game, i even had an idea to explain why the sirens became so aggressive and not as smart as in lore, thought about creating an underwater siren city, mods like this enhance the game, become essential and will bring people to the game.

 

[Nolenthar]

don't attack the person, but the content.

[Sard Edit: just this. Thank you for spelling that out.]

We shall wait & see what CDPR deliver. I don't doubt any second that whatever they do, we (as a community) will come up with discontent, critics, and excuses as to why this didn't work as we said it would. But by all means, I'd be happy to be wrong.

What about ideas? modders see the game from a different perspective then the company for them it is a labor of love and will spend a lot of times to perfect the game. Skyrim combat system is a dumb down deadly reflex. Many ideas made by modders can return in the next game, and those ideas came for free and worth money for the company.
As said before it take time to build a modding community, when the witcehr 3 was released a lot of modders waited for the redkit in order to perfect the game, i even had an idea to explain why the sirens became so aggressive and not smart as in lore, thought about creating an underground siren city, mods like this enhance the game, become essential and will bring people to the game.

I fully agree. I however also believe if CDPR saw so much potential in modding, they would have spent more energy allowing it. I do not know their reasons, but the fact they have not answered us with much energy probably proves my point : we are definitely not enough to matter.

 

[Mezziaz]

I do not know their reasons, but the fact they have not answered us with much energy probably proves my point : we are definitely not enough to matter.

At the same time they aren't making it easy for modders to matter nor for a modding community to grow when there aren't proper tools for modders to work with in the first place.

It's like they forgot that some of the most talented people on their team used to be modders themselves.

 

[Nolenthar]

At the same time they aren't making it easy for modders to matter nor for a modding community to grow when there aren't proper tools for modders to work with in the first place.

It's like they forgot that some of the most talented people on their team used to be modders themselves.

I don't disagree. It's however the story of the hen and the egg. And we could argue again about TW2, which definitely had a tool. Who knows, if there has been a huge interest, and a lot of content, maybe TW3 would have been released with the Red Kit altogether. Now, if we're talking present : How many people do you believe have sent a Xmas project for the competition ? Now, how many "talented" modders have done so ? Don't you believe this could just be a way to "poll" the community, to test it ? And what do you think would come of it ?

 

[KingHochmeister]

I just really hope CDPR had a really good reason not to release the redkit, like middleware licensing issues at least, because whether you think modding is important for W3 or not, CDPR really did shoot themselves in the foot.

With that said, if they did release the full redkit, I doubt the modding community would be as large as we expect it to be, however, the mods that I have seen for W3 deserve more tools, proper ones, because they enhanced the enjoyment of the game for me so greatly I can't go back to vanilla in some cases, like FriendlyHUD for example.

 

[VictorianLocks47]

I fully agree. I however also believe if CDPR saw so much potential in modding, they would have spent more energy allowing it. I do not know their reasons, but the fact they have not answered us with much energy probably proves my point : we are definitely not enough to matter.

 

[verdwhisper]

I know all the ppl here really love and care about the game. Even though for unknown reasons we cannot totally agree with each other, Your presence makes me feel warm inside in this cold weather. I believe that witcher3 has so much modding potential. I want to revisit vizima, the murky water. I want to visit zerrikania and hell, even the world of aen elle. I dont care about the voice acting. Its nice to have but I can live without it. So many possibilities. I know I need that redkit.

 

[Big_Machine]

@Nolenthar, from your posts one thing is loud and clear - you agree 100% with every move CDPR has made in regards to TW3. That is noted and you should be fine with the fact that not everyone agrees with your point of view (saying you agree and then making some snarky remark doesn't count, mind you).

Another thing that I couldn't help but notice is that you view the whole modding/Redkit situation from a business executive point of view. Gamers or modders don't think about how much money the studio will make should it release the Redkit, not should gamers and modders worry about that. As far as CDPR, you can't have your cake and it too.

Many folks in this thread who are directly involved in modding TW3 has said that Redkit will make things that should be mundane and easy to change to do just that with a move of a slider and see the immediate effect in realtime cutting the time needed for a starting a game/testing scenario in half at least not only that but more complicated things they simply can not do with the tools provided. Check the volumetric clouds thread, Ghost is doing one hell of a job and the time needed for making workarounds with the current tools is huge.

P.S. You know why Besthesda's modding community is huge? Because it has an easy-to-use modding kit. [here I'd expect you to say something about their Creation engine being a dying old engine while CDPR is breaking all sorts of new grounds]. Well to that I can only say this - don't bite more than you can chew. Nobody likes hypocrisy.

 

[Sardukhar]

At a certain point, as is mentioned above, people do need to be fine with the fact that their point of view is not agreed with.

In other words, weigh at what point trying to change minds is doing good, and at what point it becomes disruptive.

This applies to all sides.

It's a discussion forum, so the -idea- is to circulate new ideas and find new friends. Opposition is of course a good idea, because it shines light into corners that might not otherwise see that light, but it has to be friendly, constructive opposition.

If you don't think you are doing any good arguing with someone, then don't. Just don't. Be the bigger poster and back away. And don't bother saying that first - all that does is make you look like someone trying to have the last word, while not trying to have the last word.

Simply shrug and change the topic or go back to an earlier, more constructive line of discussion.