The story doesn't explain this about Relic (SPOILER!)

[CasperTheGhost]

I thought as the chip as a degradable material that slowly dissolves and merges with the body. But honestly, does it really matter.
even in shows like altered carbon, if you get blasted in the neck- You die for good. Which is why it was against the law x2 to blast somebody in the neck

as i understand it the chip takes over as the nanites rewrite the brain, or perhaps that's just what happened to V because of the damage that bullet caused.

 

[pndrad]

as i understand it the chip takes over as the nanites rewrite the brain, or perhaps that's just what happened to V because of the damage that bullet caused.

The nanites repair cells, reprogram DNA, and grow new or reshapes neural connections. The personality on the chip seems to gain access to the neural connections and move from the chip to the altered brain.
Its possible V wasn't actually dead when the relic activated, just massive brain damage that the relic mistook for brain death.

Honestly those nanites technically are under used, they could actually provide eternal youth by rewriting a person's DNA to an earlier copy.

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

I have a question.
Johnny's engram via the relic is overwriting V's brain.
At the end, Alt says she can't save V and if V went back to her body she would have only 6 months to live.
During the separation of Johnny and V, Alt says she has to basically kill V's body to do it.
At the end, V has her own engram now.
Couldn't it be possible that once V's engram is put back in her own body - it overwrites her brain again removing the Johnny stuff from her brain and basically putting her back together as just V without the 6 months stuff?
If it's possible to do that, perhaps one of the upcoming expansions will have you, panam (and maybe Judy) looking for the tools/cyberware that would enable her to do just that.

And that's one of the plotholes.

Suddenly, the relics modus operandi is ignored, because it is convenient.

In addition, alt should have known from the very beginning that the brain changes, because well... we k ow it from Vic and probably hellman by the time.

Post automatically merged: Jan 9, 2021

The nanites repair cells, reprogram DNA, and grow new or reshapes neural connections. The personality on the chip seems to gain access to the neural connections and move from the chip to the altered brain.
Its possible V wasn't actually dead when the relic activated, just massive brain damage that the relic mistook for brain death.

Honestly those nanites technically are under used, they could actually provide eternal youth by rewriting a person's DNA to an earlier copy.

The problem is that a nanite can't rewrite DNA. It simply is too large. That's like dissecting a cell with your fingers.

 

[eradmis]

i've mentioned this several times in another thread: v's body has had it's dna rewritten by the nanites, and supposedly that's supposed to force V's body to reject the engram. now, the engram is just digital information, there's nothing biological to it at all, no dna for the body to reject (i'm also guessing there's no physical component either making it even dumber now that i think of it). so, there's really no reason for V's body to reject their engram, even if their body's dna has been completely rewritten.

My theory for that is the Johnny nanites were still in their system and there'd be a conflict. The nanite infection is likely a permanent feature from using a Relic.

Anyone attempting to take over an already infected body using a Relic would be just as doomed as V was in the first place, albeit maybe slower since they'd have nanites of their own trying to repair the damage from the internal conflict.

The problem is that a nanite can't rewrite DNA. It simply is too large. That's like dissecting a cell with your fingers.

While nanite in the popular consciousness is often considered something akin to a cell-sized metal robot that might cause a grey goo scenario, they can be far smaller or larger than that and don't necessarily even have to be inorganic or even nonliving. In fact, so called "molecular machines" like CRISPR-Cas9 are also referred to as nanites and are exactly what scientists use to edit DNA in the modern day.

 

[ya1]

I actually have a crazy theory as well. If you read the Transcript of the Relic 2.0 specifications given to V by Anders Hellman, you learn that several attempts to use RELIC 2.0 to implant both a digitized engram and enhanced personality construct had resulted in failure. They had then attempted trials using subjects on the verge of biological death, but were still unsuccessful in activating the chips basic functionality. They then proceeded trials with hosts that had undergone both brain death and cardiac arrest. This also failed as the biochip would show initial signs of activating before lapsing. The question is why did the chip work on V, but no other test subjects. What was the missing ingredient in V's case that allowed the chip to function? My answer, serendipitous cross corporate synergy.
Let's talk about Sandra Dorsett, because she plays into my theory. When you return Sandra's databank to her you have a variety of options. You can choose to not read the databank at all. You can break its encryption and then lie about it. You can come clean and praise her, or you can come clean about reading it and attempt to blackmail her. Her reactions will span from paying you extra for your compliments, to attempting to gun you down with a home turret. I remember when I initially played through the various scenarios, her reactions seemed to go from 0 to 60 in a split second. Then, I remembered the contents of the databank.
Night corp was testing a AI designated CN-07 on its employees. The databank states how it had successfully bypassed various security systems and engage in a period of subliminal conditioning. It specifically notes how a subject that had been calm and empathetic experiences a psychotic break, strangled a colleague over a coffee dispute (which gets some empathy from me, I have often wanted to strangle coworkers that kill the pot and don't start a new one) and then throws themself out a 16th story window. So, the more I thought about it, the more it made sense that Sandra has already been experiencing the effects of CN-07 and when stressed quickly resorts to extreme violence.
Now, what does this have to do with V? Well, when V rescues Sandra at the beginning of the game, he has to interface directly with her system to get her vital stats. During this interface, he appears to pick up some kind of virus. He has Vic look at it the next day while getting new optics. Vic assures him he flushed it from his systems. But, my suspicion is that he did not, or that by the time he did, CN-07 had already began its process of conditioning V's mind.
RELIC 2.0 failed previously because even when implanted on test subjects that had undergone brain death, the brain itself still required additional conditioning to accept RELIC 2.0's programming. The RELIC would have only worked on V because V was one of the few people that was actually in a per-conditioned state that would prove ultimately receptive to RELIC 2.0's primary function.

I think it was supposed to be that. When they cut content out of the Jackie-befriending period, they decided to stop at the Dorset mission. On the surface, it has nothing to do with the main story line, just a regular rescue-from-scavs gig, it seems... But there must be a reason why they decided to start the game with it. Apparently, they must have also cut content which was supposed to put some emphasis on the significance of the Dorset AI virus. Maybe they cut out a planned continuation of the whole Dorset plot? It does kinda seem half-assed and does end abruptly...

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

My theory for that is the Johnny nanites were still in their system and there'd be a conflict. The nanite infection is likely a permanent feature from using a Relic.

Anyone attempting to take over an already infected body using a Relic would be just as doomed as V was in the first place, albeit maybe slower since they'd have nanites of their own trying to repair the damage from the internal conflict.


While nanite in the popular consciousness is often considered something akin to a cell-sized metal robot that might cause a grey goo scenario, they can be far smaller or larger than that and don't necessarily even have to be inorganic or even nonliving. In fact, so called "molecular machines" like CRISPR-Cas9 are also referred to as nanites and are exactly what scientists use to edit DNA in the modern day.

Crispr-Cas is a protain not a bot.
While crispr would be able to alter DNA, a complete rewrite would not be possible, because you would need to have the complete DNA stored inside the protain.
In addition, is would still make no difference, because DNA has nothing to do with neural nets and you would have to change every cell in the hosts body to make all tissue match. This would end up as a cronenberg body horror.
If you don't do it, the host would have to be on very strong medication all the time to prevent the immune system going haywire. It's all it nothing and it would still not matter, because the neural nets would still have to be altered by microsurgery (nanobots).

In the end, it does not matter, because the DNA bullshit was introduced at the end of the game, despite the fact that the chip and its function were already explained before and nobody mentioned DNA - not even the person who built it.

So it doesn't matter, because it's a retcon

 

[eradmis]

Crispr-Cas is a protain not a bot.

It's a molecular machine. Those are also called nanites. Little metal bots aren't the only thing called nanites in sci-fi or the real world.

So it doesn't matter, because it's a retcon

Actually when you're first getting the chip they mention it needs to be stored in a special container approximating the inside of the human body (disguised to look like a briefcase). They were clearly implying it to have organic components at that point. Doesn't necessarily mean DNA, but it at least implies that it's not just a normal shard with a reverse Soulkiller program on it.

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

It's a molecular machine. Those are also called nanites. Little metal bots aren't the only thing called nanites in sci-fi or the real world.

Actually when you're first getting the chip they mention it needs to be stored in a special container approximating the inside of the human body (disguised to look like a briefcase). They were clearly implying it to have organic components at that point. Doesn't necessarily mean DNA, but it at least implies that it's not just a normal shard with a reverse Soulkiller program on it.

No. It's not a molecular machine.
It's a biochemical compound, used to cut out, add or exchange certain parts of DNA.

It's not a machine, because it does not contain moving parts.

Don't try to explain this to a lab technician mate

 

[CasperTheGhost]

It's a molecular machine. Those are also called nanites. Little metal bots aren't the only thing called nanites in sci-fi or the real world.

Actually when you're first getting the chip they mention it needs to be stored in a special container approximating the inside of the human body (disguised to look like a briefcase). They were clearly implying it to have organic components at that point. Doesn't necessarily mean DNA, but it at least implies that it's not just a normal shard with a reverse Soulkiller program on it.

you're still not getting it. the engram isn't biological, it's not even physical, it's digital data, on the chip. as for the environment the chip requires, there's no basis to suggest it has organic components (nor that it lacks them either) it may simply be designed to function in a specific environment, but that still doesn't matter. as that doesn't change the fact that the engram is just data.

---edit) i'm not a lab tech or anything, i just payed attention in high school. and even i know that whole pile of rubbish that they call an ending is in fact a pile of rubbish.

 

[eradmis]

No. It's not a molecular machine.
It's a biochemical compound, used to cut out, add or exchange certain parts of DNA.

It's not a machine, because it does not contain moving parts.

So just to be clear, you're asserting an inclined plane isn't a machine? Also, "A molecular machine, nanite, or nanomachine is a molecular component that produces quasi-mechanical movements (output) in response to specific stimuli (input). In cellular biology, macromolecular machines frequently perform tasks essential for life, such as DNA replication and ATP synthesis."

you're still not getting it. the engram isn't biological, it's not even physical, it's digital data, on the chip. as for the environment the chip requires, there's no basis to suggest it has organic components (nor that it lacks them either) it may simply be designed to function in a specific environment, but that still doesn't matter. as that doesn't change the fact that the engram is just data.

The engram is indeed just data. The Relic isn't the engram though. It's the system by which the data can be transferred from a computer system to a brain (presumably without side effects since Viktor runs a malware scan on your squishy bits at the start and there are plenty of other mentions of programs getting into and even extracting minds). I never meant to imply the engram is biologic.

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

So just to be clear, you're asserting an inclined plane isn't a machine? Also, "A molecular machine, nanite, or nanomachine is a molecular component that produces quasi-mechanical movements (output) in response to specific stimuli (input). In cellular biology, macromolecular machines frequently perform tasks essential for life, such as DNA replication and ATP synthesis."


The engram is indeed just data. The Relic isn't the engram though. It's the system by which the data can be transferred from a computer system to a brain (presumably without side effects since Viktor runs a malware scan on your squishy bits at the start and there are plenty of other mentions of programs getting into and even extracting minds). I never meant to imply the engram is biologic.

Changing subjects. Crisp is not a machine. It's a molecule. A macro molecule to be more precise. If the media calls in a micro machine, it's a highly misleading term.

The term nanobot is highly associated with a machine with cell level size maybe a bit smaller. The game tells us that nanobots can regenerate nerve tissue and that the biochip uses nanobots to rearrange the neurons in V's brain, so the brain starts to thing like Johnny.

Fine and dandy explanation.

Then comes the DNA bullshit exactly before or even within the epilogue, telling us that the nanobots rewrite DNA (what they can't do, because they are too large - they would destroy the cell).
First, DNA has nothing to do with neural nets that are formed by interconnected neurons. Neural nets build thoughts not DNA.
Second, DNA modification is common in the cyberpunk universe. It's widely used since at least the 2020s. While corporations sell their products to allow organic body modifications. All in the cyberpunk lore.

https://cyberpunk.fandom.com/wiki/Bioware (this link leads to bioware in general. Here, nanobots (nanites) and biomodifications (exotics) are explained.

So the changed DNA is not even a problem, while having no influence on how and what V thinks.

 

[Nux]

And that's one of the plotholes.

Suddenly, the relics modus operandi is ignored, because it is convenient.

In addition, alt should have known from the very beginning that the brain changes, because well... we k ow it from Vic and probably hellman by the time.

Well actually Alt says she couldn't do full diagnostic before having full access to V's body.

And Alt is the fastest in diagnosing V. The other option is the space clinic (Hanako ending). It takes them many days of annoying tests and teraphy to finally arrive at the same diagnosis Alt did in minutes . Most annoying ending of all BTW.

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

Well actually Alt says she couldn't do full diagnostic before having full access to V's body.

And Alt is the fastest in diagnosing V. The other option is the space clinic (Hanako ending). It takes them many days of annoying tests and teraphy to finally arrive at the same diagnosis Alt did in minutes . Most annoying ending of all BTW.

Still doesn't matter, because the DNA thing was a last minute change to the relic. Vic did not mention DNA changes, hellman (the creator of the chip) did not not mention it, the shard from hellman did not mention it.

It's a retcon to have an excuse to make V terminally ill.

This is comparable to your childhood friend you play cowboy with and who says: "no, you can't shoot me, because I have a shield."

Side note:
So. She alt ignored the shard we got from hellman before hammering our brain with soulkiller. Great.
After the diagnosis she could have given us the choice. Copy the status quo at the loss of the part of V that was already overwritten by the shard or hope for treatment.

 

[hulkman2456]

Now, what does this have to do with V? Well, when V rescues Sandra at the beginning of the game, he has to interface directly with her system to get her vital stats. During this interface, he appears to pick up some kind of virus. He has Vic look at it the next day while getting new optics. Vic assures him he flushed it from his systems. But, my suspicion is that he did not, or that by the time he did, CN-07 had already began its process of conditioning V's mind.
RELIC 2.0 failed previously because even when implanted on test subjects that had undergone brain death, the brain itself still required additional conditioning to accept RELIC 2.0's programming. The RELIC would have only worked on V because V was one of the few people that was actually in a per-conditioned state that would prove ultimately receptive to RELIC 2.0's primary function.

This theory has one hole. If that minor virus was the key. Saburo's ending doesn't make much sense. Unless we start giving more restrictions to the chip. It needs this random virus to work. And Relic can only work on biological family members. I wish they didn't have that info on the chip failing. Because it causes these type of issues. It would have been better that they failed because they had to keep refining the chip, in getting 100% of the mind transferred to the chip. Because it needs this random virus. Or the right way someone has to be shot in the head to work. It be not viable.

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

This theory has one hole. If that minor virus was the key. Saburo's ending doesn't make much sense. Unless we start giving more restrictions to the chip. It needs this random virus to work. And Relic can only work on biological family members.

And that's the second retcon to the chip.

 

[hulkman2456]

Anyone attempting to take over an already infected body using a Relic would be just as doomed as V was in the first place, albeit maybe slower since they'd have nanites of their own trying to repair the damage from the internal conflict.

No. This causes a plot hole. That means this chip can't be the answer to eternal life. Because you could only transfer a person once. Chips have to have the ability to transfer back and forth. Or the person dies. Trapped in a old body. Because the original transfer blocked them? That's why I get mad at the Hananko ending. I'm like make a chip, suck V out. Put V back in, done.

And if you say: You can only use the original Relic that transferred them. Than, get V in Mikoshi. And transfer her/him into Johnny's Relic. Reinsert. If you keep adding more and more rules. LIke Oh, once you write a engram to the chip. It can only accept said host. That wouldn't work. Because the person would have 100 years of new memories. The chip would no longer match. You're basically making a fancy CD-R of people. Read/write once. This Relic crap goes down the drain.

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

No. This causes a plot hole. That means this chip can't be the answer to eternal life. Because you could only transfer a person once. Chips have to have the ability to transfer back and forth. Or the person dies. Trapped in a old body. Because the original transfer blocked them? That's why I get mad at the Hananko ending. I'm like make a chip, suck V out. Put V back in, done.

And if you say: You can only use the original Relic that transferred them. Than, get V in Mikoshi. And transfer her/him into Johnny's Relic. Reinsert. If you keep adding more and more rules. LIke Oh, once you write a engram to the chip. It can only accept said host. That wouldn't work. Because the person would have 100 years of new memories. The chip would no longer match. This Relic crap goes down the drain.

In addition.
If the relic 2.0 can change somebody's DNA. Where did they get johnnie's DNA from? In 2023, the relic was not even a wet dream and the soulkiller does not copy the DNA information with it.

Yeah. Off course, it layed in some DNA databank.

Convenient. Just like ignoring the fact that DNA in cyberpunk can be modified.

 

[hulkman2456]

In addition.
If the relic 2.0 can change somebody's DNA. Where did they get johnnie's DNA from? In 2023, the relic was not even a wet dream and the soulkiller does not copy the DNA information with it.

Yeah. Off course, it layed in some DNA databank.

Convenient. Just like ignoring the fact that DNA in cyberpunk can be modified.

Yeah. The chip does have a good bit of logic. But their are sections that they shouldn't have done. I also had a problem with the EMP mission. Because that should have either saved V or killed V. The Nanites would have been disabled. I was like: WHY ARE YOU SHOWING V BEING AFFECTED BY THIS! Have the EMP only work after the detonation. Not while you are charging it.

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

Yeah. The chip does have a good bit of logic. But their are sections that they shouldn't have done. I also had a problem with the EMP mission. Because that should have either saved V or killed V. The Nanites would have been disabled. I was like: WHY ARE YOU SHOWING V BEING AFFECTED BY THIS! Have the EMP only work after the detonation. Not while you are charging it.

Best thing we will get is "word of God" that tells us that it is working as intended. Artistic integrity.

If we are really lucky, they tell us that they found a cure after Nomad and legend endings.

Case closed, buy mid-game dlc.

 

[eradmis]

No. This causes a plot hole. That means this chip can't be the answer to eternal life. Because you could only transfer a person once.

Soulkiller still exists. Using one for extraction and the other for implantation, the two systems could allow for eternal life.