The problem in a single player game like this is if you have a significant amount of content directed exclusively at a specific class or play style, people not interested are going to feel cheated out of content. For example, to me the boxing storyline is an annoyance because I don't like focusing on melee combat. Clearing it from my journal is a chore, that I kind of cheated through on my last playthrough. I think the system we got works better with the game's various options to work through missions whereas a more netrunning specific system wouldn't mesh as well. The focus and scope of things would be significantly altered to the point of it being an almost completely different game. I would love to play that different game, but I think it does need to be a separate game...or a DLC
Definitely. From a developer point of view it's a bad investment to create a ton of content for something that'll be entirely optional.
However, I don't see why CDPR couldn't have created a better Breach Protocol game. I agree with OP - the current version of Breach Protocol is weak. It wouldn't necessarily had taken a ton of resources to create an engaging minigame. Something quick and still relatively in-depth, like a Pokemon battle.
I get your point, but everybody has to do some hacking in the game, why not make it enjoyable? I'm sure there's a middle ground somewhere better than a flat screen of hexidecimal codes.
Honestly the thing suffers from the same problems it has in all Cyberpunk PnPs.
0) Hacking takes months and is work and... -> Yeah do some CyberMagic instead.
A) Cyberspace is not allowed to be a all situations solution or phone-in solution -> Make Air gaps in nets to have the player log into specific systems.
a1) Problem: The player needs to be able to got an access point. (Singleplayer -> He needs to be a master of everything?)
a2) Problem: If he needs to be able to go there, why not do it per hand instead of mind? Why shouldn't the Solo do it? (CP2077: No the Solo can totally do it; as otherwise he would need to be a master of everything.).
a3): Problem: The Hacker has nothing to do, when its a meatspace fight and he can't log in. (-> Let him also have magic wifi spells to fight).
B) The hacker has hacked into cyberpsace and now no longer percieves the meatspace. -> Well slow down time.
b1) Problem: Doesn't work well in groups, which CDPR plans to do later on. (-> Don't slow down? But for singleplayer not good?)
C) If you make hacking mandatory for X% of time, it shouldn't be something you need to spend hours on to master (unless X is pretty big). -> Make it a minigame and not complex.
D) Doing a second world as overlay for the first (Cyberspce vs Meatspace) will mean quite a lot more work -> don't do it
And honestly, so far i've seen all current publishers dance around that issue and not find a perfect solution.
Personally i've seen enough GMs go "Nah... no Deckers, neither does the group want to wait for hours, nor do i want to touch rules that are now spread over 3 books to actually make sense". And only the second point mentionend has been largely touched upon by giving hackers the ability to really fight.
So i think we'll never get a great Cyberspace game, when it's not exactly focussed on that and completly designed for deckers and such. (Nor a great Astral Pane for Shadowrun or other games with complex magic ideas).
Netrunners work best when controlled by a GM, imo. This way they become a great npc macguffin that can provide pacing and move things in the right direction. Same goes for the video game equivalent. They're really nice when they're well scripted npcs.
If they were going to do that, they'd likely not do it for Breach Protocol generally, but instead limit it to Access Points. Because Breach Protocol is something you often do in combat, it needs to be quick and easy to not disrupt game flow.
In fact, that need to mesh hacking and gunfighting is why I feel like outside of doing deep dives and Access Points, the best you could expect from hacking is maybe daemons depicted as something like summons, illusory digital constructs that leap out of Netrunners and cause targets to suffer from quickhack effects when they impact. Basically just substitute them in for the hack load bar, but also maybe you can target them with quickhacks if you're running a cyberdeck and they're after you.
That's not to say I don't think they could have done more with deep dives. There are plenty of games with distinct modes of play that aren't intended to mesh at all. There could have been a gunfight focuses half the game and a hacking focused half the game where you're in cyberspace interacting with AI. I fully understand why they didn't do that though. Split mode games a lot easier to screw up from a design PoV. Even if they tie together narratively, both sides need to be comparably fun or people will feel like one is shoehorned in.
Honestly though, if they do a spinoff (a sequel I'd want designed to build on what they've got for development safety reasons), I'd want it to be 90%+ cyberspace, maybe in Hong Kong or Busan.
The cyberspace portions don't have to be fuzzy, they just chose that aesthetic for the game. It could just as easily be hyper-realistic and super sharp.
Having run a session of Cyberpunk Red it really sucks we couldn't have something similar to the tabletop experience. Yes, Bartmoss destroyed the net but Netrunners in 2045 could still jack in to local net architecture nodes and see digital space and all they needed was a pair of VR Goggles. In some sense it works that way in the game. Be it Kiroshi probably enhanced the cyber optics to view the net as it happens just like in the game but there is no sense of having to stick close to different nodes to control hacks, the nodes only acts as a means to gather additional crafting supplies and eddies. The scan with the Optics really makes the netrunning even more underwhelming and simple. I liked the idea of having the Nanowire being injected into the cyberware physically like in Ghost in the Shell.
Because there is no internet anymore. Bartmoss destroyed it with deamons, leaving only limited local networking intact. Nighwatch made the "black wall" to keep the internet deamons cooped up inside cyberspace and not let them out in to the wider world.
You're on the right direction. But the old Net is still there. It's infested with R.A.B.I.Ds and ofc the virus Krash bartmoss put in the system.
It's because of this virus that no one uses the old net.
The black wall was created by Netwatch, but it is not meant to coupe up daemons. Netwatch and other transcendant AIs are behind the wall working on "something" to get the net back under control
Because as a concept of the whole two sides of the net, is dumb. At the end of the day. It's all servers. You just shut it down. One logical conclusion is. The evil side of the net is left on and active by powerful outside sources. Which means they are in control of it. Which means they have the power to take down Arasaka. But don't actually do it for no reason. Probably Blue Eyes. But again, no logic. The only thing I can really consider to make this work. Is if ALT is blue eyes. The AI was able to merge ALT's engram and pull a Mr. Smith. She can than leave the net and never be erased. Which would explain how the evil comes back. She than built a empire over the years. But still, doesn't directly go after Arasaka etc.
Because as a concept of the whole two sides of the net, is dumb. At the end of the day. It's all servers. You just shut it down. The only logical conclusion is. The evil side of the net is left on and active by powerful outside sources. Which means they are in control of it. Which means they have the power to take down Arasaka. But don't actually do it for no reason. Probably Blue Eyes. But again, no logic.
you can't really shut off the net, its a series of connected computers/infrastructure. You'd have to shut down every computer. Its like shutting down travel In USA.
And its too useful to give up, All the knowledge and connectivity is there. They tried it for awhile, but it was pretty bad so the corporations basically payed netwatch to make it usable after bartmaus messed it up. Netwatch created new infrastructure on top of the old, with more protections, but it still got infected from time to time. So then they set up subnet style, with air gaps for regular use. And some highly protected pathways for big player use.
Yes, netwatch is fairly powerful, but they have no particular reason to take out arasaka or any other Corp, They are essentially like a super ISP, arasaka and the other corps pay them to do what they want to do anyway, maintain the net, and humanities interconnectivity.
World is already in chaos. It can be doable. Also, if countries want to be dicks about it. Terminate physcal lines, and satilite uplinks to other servers. Fix the problem locally. Eventually everyone would do it. And give up what? You shut down the servers and destroy those hard drives. Pop new ones in, done. But it's wierd how the evil net has this powerful AI. But at no point a good AI doesn't get made and fight them. Somehow this isn't doable either? Why can't say 1 billion people all jack into the net at the same time. Bum rush the evil net. Crash the servers. How come there aren't people bombing server sites. The world went to crap. How about EMP's? DDOS the servers. 50 years, no one's tried drastic things? Look at what happens when Google or Amazon servers go down. Loads of things get disrupted.
I really don't buy the net would be a thing for this long. Unless being done on purpose. And in control by company/companies.
Yeah!! I agree with what you said! I just dont think it's alt. But a rogue AI nonetheless, that is controlling MBE.
Unfortunately tho, there is no clear explanation for just shutting down the servers thing. I thought exactly the same thing. And quite frankly I think that's what people in the cyberpunk universe did. They just stopped using the old net. I don't know why there is no way of just shutting it all down.
Unfortunately tho, there is no clear explanation for just shutting down the servers thing. I thought exactly the same thing. And quite frankly I think that's what people in the cyberpunk universe did. They just stopped using the old net. I don't know why there is no way of just shutting it all down.
Mike Pondsmith and J. Gray for R. Talsorian Games give some backround to that. General gist is that AI's have for a long time had a way to infect anything and exist in anything, like simple mobile phone V uses. Only way to eliminate them would be shutting down everything and in the City of about 7 million citizens and the world, where we see something very essential like food coming from wending machines, not to mention energy (think of hospitals alone, air conditioning) production of other goods, highly automated supply lines in general, it's just not viable solution.
World is already in chaos. It can be doable. Also, if countries want to be dicks about it. Terminate physcal lines, and satilite uplinks to other servers. Fix the problem locally. Eventually everyone would do it. And give up what? You shut down the servers and destroy those hard drives. Pop new ones in, done. But it's wierd how the evil net has this powerful AI. But at no point a good AI doesn't get made and fight them. Somehow this isn't doable either? Why can't say 1 billion people all jack into the net at the same time. Bum rush the evil net. Crash the servers. How come there aren't people bombing server sites. The world went to crap. How about EMP's? 50 years. No one's tried drastic things? Look what happens when Google or Amazon servers go down. Loads of things get disrupted.
that is essentially what they did. region by region, but bartmaus virus easily gets into their systems if they mess up. They'd have to destroy every server at once, and no country/government has access to every server. Or the type of cooperation that countries would agree to destroy their working nets, simultaneously.
Keep in mind most rogue AIs are just data/algorithms with no body and can corrupt any system if they come into contact.
So the old net is still there, and netwatch basically made an agreement with powerful systemic AIs to for the most part not try to Infilitrate the new systems. They created an AI that enforces this agreement. Keeping rogue AIs separate. If they actually tried to aggressively destroy oldnet architecture, the AI would probably seek to take over the new networks created, and probably have a war with mankind. Netwatch manages this side limiting and monitoring Our AIs, and ocaisionally dealing with the few that get through one way or the other.
BTW the old net isn't really evil, its just rogue AI is problematic. It was acceptable until bartmaus unleashed a self replicating AI virus that was specifically destructive.
Yeah!! I agree with what you said! I just dont think it's alt. But a rogue AI nonetheless, that is controlling MBE.
Unfortunately tho, there is no clear explanation for just shutting down the servers thing. I thought exactly the same thing. And quite frankly I think that's what people in the cyberpunk universe did. They just stopped using the old net. I don't know why there is no way of just shutting it all down.
there is no just shutting down all the servers, all the servers everywhere are controlled and maintained by various governments, people, factions. It is like trying to shut down the net right now IRL, its not possible. Even if everyone in US agreed, there's still tons of infrastructure/backups/automated throughout the world.
Jim Pondsmith and J. Gray for R. Talsorian Games give some backround to that. General gist is that AI's have for a long time had a way to infect anything and exist in anything, like simple mobile phone V uses. Only way to eliminate them would be shutting down everything and in the City of about 7 million citizens and the world, where we see something very essential like food coming from wending machines, not to mention energy (think of hospitals alone, air conditioning) production of other goods, highly automated supply lines in general, it's just not viable solution.
hulkman2456 Ayinde_Palmer CS554
quick side not tho this is great, i've read bits of BArtmoss' guide to the net and other source books. And it seems most people dont have this level of understanding. Of what is really going on. Honestly so far with our discussion I've found out more than I did googling this stuff...
sorry guys I'm not to good with replying to multiple users like how i've seen other people do it so i will try to respond in this one post...
hulkman2456so as for why they cant just shuyt off the old (evil net) because in cyberpunk the Net is an alternate reality. Netrunners just have tools to jump back and forth between the two planes.
The Net is an alternate plane of reality. See, the multiverse is comprised of several layers, or planes.
idk how to quote citations but thats from Bartmoss' Guide to the net. Long story short the Net is something that cannot be shut down, you can just limit your access to it. Which is what Netwatch tried to do when they failed to regain control of the old Net...
then there is also one thing that R.Talsorian Games included in their newest source book for cyberpunk red. That is that the Old Net is no longer usable, but it still exists. NightCIty and most other cities in the world are now using called something called CitiNet. Best explanation is its google and youtube. It was created by a company called ziggurat and their product Citinet was first used in NC so that people once again have "safe" access to the net. (i also saw someone saying that the history in the source books and the game are not directly aligned, so maybe this is were we all have seperate conclusions to how the net works in Cyberpunk 2077) But anyways according to their source books this is how major cities and countries for that matter now have access to the Net. Unfortunately i've not found anything about ziggurat in the video game so its either not included or there is another explaination for what netrunners in the game now use..
For a while i just thought that gangs like the voodoo boys were capable enough to roam the OLD NET because i mean they look like they know their sh*t..
hulkman2456 Ayinde_Palmer CS554
quick side not tho this is great, i've read bits of BArtmoss' guide to the net and other source books. And it seems most people dont have this level of understanding. Of what is really going on. Honestly so far with our discussion I've found out more than I did googling this stuff...
sorry guys I'm not to good with replying to multiple users like how i've seen other people do it so i will try to respond in this one post...
hulkman2456so as for why they cant just shuyt off the old (evil net) because in cyberpunk the Net is an alternate reality. Netrunners just have tools to jump back and forth between the two planes.
The Net is an alternate plane of reality. See, the multiverse is comprised of several layers, or planes.
idk how to quote citations but thats from Bartmoss' Guide to the net. Long story short the Net is something that cannot be shut down, you can just limit your access to it. Which is what Netwatch tried to do when they failed to regain control of the old Net...
then there is also one thing that R.Talsorian Games included in their newest source book for cyberpunk red. That is that the Old Net is no longer usable, but it still exists. NightCIty and most other cities in the world are now using called something called CitiNet. Best explanation is its google and youtube. It was created by a company called ziggurat and their product Citinet was first used in NC so that people once again have "safe" access to the net. (i also saw someone saying that the history in the source books and the game are not directly aligned, so maybe this is were we all have seperate conclusions to how the net works in Cyberpunk 2077) But anyways according to their source books this is how major cities and countries for that matter now have access to the Net. Unfortunately i've not found anything about ziggurat in the video game so its either not included or there is another explaination for what netrunners in the game now use..
For a while i just thought that gangs like the voodoo boys were capable enough to roam the OLD NET because i mean they look like they know their sh*t..
I will say bartmaus is a genius, but he is also crazy. We can't be sure his perspective/understanding is accurate. However he was right about some things. We can't say for sure he is wrong either.
that is essentially what they did. region by region, but bartmaus virus easily gets into their systems if they mess up. They'd have to destroy every server at once, and no country/government has access to every server. Or the type of cooperation that countries would agree to destroy their working nets, simultaneously.
Keep in mind most rogue AIs are just data/algorithms with no body and can corrupt any system if they come into contact.
So the old net is still there, and netwatch basically made an agreement with powerful systemic AIs to for the most part not try to Infilitrate the new systems. They created an AI that enforces this agreement. Keeping rogue AIs separate. If they actually tried to aggressively destroy oldnet architecture, the AI would probably seek to take over the new networks created, and probably have a war with mankind. Netwatch manages this side limiting and monitoring Our AIs, and ocaisionally dealing with the few that get through one way or the other.
BTW the old net isn't really evil, its just rogue AI is problematic. It was acceptable until bartmaus unleashed a self replicating AI virus that was specifically destructive.
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there is no just shutting down all the servers, all the servers everywhere are controlled and maintained by various governments, people, factions. It is like trying to shut down the net right now IRL, its not possible. Even if everyone in US agreed, there's still tons of infrastructure/backups/automated throughout the world.
The only rogue AI that maybe different are the RABIDs? what do you think? I'm not to educated on clones and viruses and all that stuff. But the RABIDs are defined as rogue Bartmoss clones. I agree they dont have a body in the physical plane. I'm not sure if they got it a body in the information plane aka the NET
"Then there’s the information plane; the Net. The plane of information is the real universe, and the physical plane exists only to allow us access into it. Life is communication is information is the Net"
quote from the bartmoss' guide to the net....
Yes i agree the old net is still there and they didnt shut it down. The infromation starvation you explained is what is going on in the game. This is why netwatch did everything they could to regain control.
im curious about this AI that enforces that agreement you mentioned? is that in the books? what is it called??
I will say bartmaus is a genius, but he is also crazy. We can't be sure his perspective/understanding is accurate. However he was right about some things. We can't say for sure he is wrong either.
LOL he is crazy. Reading parts of the book he talks about how there might actually be aliens in the net... I dont want to get carried away but still. The man is sounding alot like Garry the Prophet
Appreciate the posts. this will help as i try to do more research
Having run a session of Cyberpunk Red it really sucks we couldn't have something similar to the tabletop experience. Yes, Bartmoss destroyed the net but Netrunners in 2045 could still jack in to local net architecture nodes and see digital space and all they needed was a pair of VR Goggles. In some sense it works that way in the game. Be it Kiroshi probably enhanced the cyber optics to view the net as it happens just like in the game but there is no sense of having to stick close to different nodes to control hacks, the nodes only acts as a means to gather additional crafting supplies and eddies. The scan with the Optics really makes the netrunning even more underwhelming and simple. I liked the idea of having the Nanowire being injected into the cyberware physically like in Ghost in the Shell.
Yeah. You know, if they really wanted to make it more dynamic and action-y, They could have it so when you hit tab or caps lock to use your scanner, you actually instead get a "net view" of the local cyberspace showing you local data structures and enemy programs. Then you could deploy your daemons and hack programs similarly to how you use your various weapons in real space, having to match your programs to the situation and what kind of ICE you are facing. Then the whole game becomes this interesting interplay between real space and cyberspace, with the player deciding what balance of real world solutions vs netrunning solutions they want to use to solve problems.
Of course some things like the ganger running at you can't be easily solved in cyberspace, and getting through a really strong security system can't be solved in the real world with a shotgun. So you have to learn when to use your net skills and when a more "personal" approach is needed.
The only rogue AI that maybe different are the RABIDs? what do you think? I'm not to educated on clones and viruses and all that stuff. But the RABIDs are defined as rogue Bartmoss clones. I agree they dont have a body in the physical plane. I'm not sure if they got it a body in the information plane aka the NET
"Then there’s the information plane; the Net. The plane of information is the real universe, and the physical plane exists only to allow us access into it. Life is communication is information is the Net"
quote from the bartmoss' guide to the net....
Yes i agree the old net is still there and they didnt shut it down. The infromation starvation you explained is what is going on in the game. This is why netwatch did everything they could to regain control.
im curious about this AI that enforces that agreement you mentioned? is that in the books? what is it called??
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LOL he is crazy. Reading parts of the book he talks about how there might actually be aliens in the net... I dont want to get carried away but still. The man is sounding alot like Garry the Prophet
Appreciate the posts. this will help as i try to do more research
but that AI was created by some other transcendental AI, or so I hear. The story goes that netwatch somehow communicated with a transcendental AI, and blackwall AI was the solution. I heard that from madqueenshow i think, but I don't know her source.
Yeah. You know, if they really wanted to make it more dynamic and action-y, They could have it so when you hit tab or caps lock to use your scanner, you actually instead get a "net view" of the local cyberspace showing you local data structures and enemy programs. Then you could deploy your daemons and hack programs similarly to how you use your various weapons in real space, having to match your programs to the situation and what kind of ICE you are facing. Then the whole game becomes this interesting interplay between real space and cyberspace, with the player deciding what balance of real world solutions vs netrunning solutions they want to use to solve problems.
Of course some things like the ganger running at you can't be easily solved in cyberspace, and getting through a really strong security system can't be solved in the real world with a shotgun. So you have to learn when to use your net skills and when a more "personal" approach is needed.
yes, this would have been a solution, but still requires creating "two worlds" And a more clear line between netrunning and meatspace, which I don't think they wanted to do.
basically at the end of the day, they wanted netrunning to fit in very closely to the regular play experience.
I still think a cyberspace closer to pnp was or is still possible. It could work something like this:
1) a transform ability that is activated when you successfully breach an access point or terminal. You get an option to remain in/return to real space or dive into cyberspace.
2) While transformed you go into a kind of hyper mobile, melee combat state where monowire has the ability to upload quickhacks through melee strikes and special takedowns. Hell it could have Ghostrunner style hookshot capability in cyberspace if they wanted to go the extra effort! In real space, the monowire is just a regular old whip.
The purpose is to make you feel like a temporary god with superhuman mobility. As long as you own the subnet and you remain undetected, you are its god. Cyberspace does not need to look much different to real space. It can look exactly the same. But for gameplay reasons, the player needs a clear and obvious indication of when they are in real space or when they are in cyberspace.
3) While transformed you are restricted to the range of the subnet or mission area and this could work like in brain dances. If you stray too far out of the mission perimeter, you teleport back inside. While transformed, you see all access points and terminals permanently and you see all enemies moving around the mission area as digital constructs. Killing the construct, kills the enemy in real space.
4) While transformed you leave your body behind in real space, just like when you hack a camera. Your body's location is permanently highlighted while in cyberspace and you must protect it from enemies in real space.
5) Your transform time is limited depending on enemy threat level. Low threat? You can stay in cyberspace for a long time without being detected. Very high threat? You get detected really quickly. Either way you are on the clock. You can't stay god of the subnet forever.
6) Being detected works like stealth gameplay if you leave a corpse in real space and it gets discovered, you get ICE'ed. If your transform timer goes to zero, you get ICE'ed.
7) Getting ICE'ed means matrix style super agents agents spawn in and hunt for you like pacman ghosts. They move and attack a bit like you or Oda - beyond human ability. If the agents kill you in cyberspace, you are booted off the subnet. Hell they could even spawn camp you if you try to dive in again.
8) The longer you spend in ICE, the harder the agents get. To escape them, you have to run to an access point or terminal to get back to real space. So it would work exactly like Trinity trying to find a payphone while agents are chasing her. This would quite literally be netrunning.
There are some major design challenges with implementing something like this. I have tried to use as many existing mechanics in the game as possible but certain things are just not doable and may frustrate gameplay.
The most obvious one is, how do you deal with enemies who are not in range of an access point or on a subnet? Like gang members in ncpd assaults and stuff? Well, you don't. This would mean netrunning gameplay would involve a significant amount of real space character development.
What would differentiate a pure netrunner build from one that just does a little bit of netrunning? Do they get stricter ICE timers? How would existing quickhacks work in cyberspace and how could they be differentiated in cyberspace? Like for example, maybe Suicide could be used to flatline someone in real space without them detecting you because it looks like they just you know. Had enough of life. But that kind of thing is very hard to script the reactive behaviour for and I just don't know.
