You can't change the game world cuz' it's not a PnP game. Yes you can

[urza7]

Fallout new Vegas the prime example you can make a game with multiple choices and impactful decisions for the gameworld! One of the first quest in the game gives you a big decision!

Run Goodsprings Run

Run Goodsprings Run is a side quest in Fallout: New Vegas. After witnessing the argument in the Prospector Saloon (requires finishing Back in the Saddle), find Joe Cobb leaning up against a small house at the southeastern edge of Goodsprings. He will ask the Courier to kill Ringo, a Crimson...

fallout.fandom.com

OR

Ghost Town Gunfight

Ghost Town Gunfight is a side quest in Goodsprings for Fallout: New Vegas. This quest is first available after completing Back in the Saddle or By a Campfire on the Trail. Sunny Smiles will suggest that the Courier pay a visit to the saloon in Goodsprings, where they learn that the town is being...

fallout.fandom.com

well you really cant change the game world around you? You can do it just in a PnP session?

This game was in not 8 not 5 but 2 years in development. Release date 2010

8 mil. budget

 

[asirpakamui]

The problem is Voice Acting. New Vegas didn't have voice acting for the player character. With how many lines the player character has right now, imagine if they had the choice of older (see; better) RPG's. Look at Morrowind. Have you seen how much choice the player has in that game where it comes to dialogue? Imagine if the player had to voice all of that. It's not feasible.

That's why RPG's without Voice Acting are better in every single possible way because they give the developers more choice. If you write a script and someone voices it, you can't change it half way through.

Voice Acting is the bane of all RPG's.

This is not a popular opinion and this is why modern RPG's are so shit. This is why this game is no longer considered an RPG.

 

[urza7]

The problem is Voice Acting. New Vegas didn't have voice acting for the player character. With how many lines the player character has right now, imagine if they had the choice of older (see; better) RPG's. Look at Morrowind. Have you seen how much choice the player has in that game where it comes to dialogue? Imagine if the player had to voice all of that. It's not feasible.

That's why RPG's without Voice Acting are better in every single possible way because they give the developers more choice. If you write a script and someone voices it, you can't change it half way through.

Voice Acting is the bane of all RPG's.

This is not a popular opinion and this is why modern RPG's are so shit. This is why this game is no longer considered an RPG.

Look CDPR had US$317 million for this game. It is a s**** ton of money. With this money you can make a AAAAAAAAAAAA game and make voice for the last empty food can on the street if you want. I understand what you are saying but in this case CDPR had the money and the time too. So it is not an excuse why they can't make a normal RPG like Fallout new Vegas

 

[asirpakamui]

Look CDPR had US$317 million for this game. It is a s**** ton of money. With this money you can make a AAAAAAAAAAAA game and make voice for the last empty food can on the street if you want. I understand what you are saying but in this case CDPR had the money and the time too. So it is not an excuse why they can't make a normal RPG like Fallout new Vegas

Wrong wrong. It's simply not feasible. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending CDPR. They fucked up. But it should have never been marketed as an RPG. They did change it in 2018 if I remember correctly, but they did make this based on a PNP game. You simply can't do a long interactive story with multiple paths with voice acting. Have you seen the picture of the apparent script Cyberpunk had? If you removed Voice Acting and gave proper diverging paths a go, it would be three times bigger than that at the very least and none of this accounts for the actual role playing element. Every single V is the same. You start as a corpo? It starts fantastic. But the second the tutorial is over, you're nothing but some street rat, uneducated idiot like every single other player in the game.

Compare the Maelstrom Mission (the mission shown in the playable Demo shown to a select few and Journalists) to Sinnerman, (the most rail road, linear mission around). The Maelstrom mission is what this game should have been. It has;

> 1. Stat checks that actually matter

>2. Different endings depending on how you handle it and how you solve it.

>3. Different changes to other missions and who you interact with at a later date.

While the Sinnerman Side Job is only two paths. You can quickly rush around the back of the car and kill the guy, or you get locked into the most annoying bullshit imaginable. Not only that, but the weather itself is coded to be day time. I did it at night time and by the time I got to the guy, it magically just turned day time. Going even further, you cannot save the guy you are working for. If you try, you will fail. I have tried to kill the cop, even fully killed him, but then the guy you're working for magically dies or the cop revives himself and then kills the guy. It's utter bullshit and all because there is no voice acting lines for the guy coming back to life. They can't just rewrite the quest to fix that and give you more choice, the choice is set in stone and made for you. It's the complete and utter illusion of choice. He has no lines, no more voice acting, so he dies. You cannot save him. If there was no voice acting, they could simply add a new line of dialogue onto him and have him kill the man he wants.

 

[urza7]

Wrong wrong. It's simply not feasible. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending CDPR. They fucked up. But it should have never been marketed as an RPG. They did change it in 2018 if I remember correctly, but they did make this based on a PNP game. You simply can't do a long interactive story with multiple paths with voice acting. Have you seen the picture of the apparent script Cyberpunk had? If you removed Voice Acting and gave proper diverging paths a go, it would be three times bigger than that at the very least and none of this accounts for the actual role playing element. Every single V is the same. You start as a corpo? It starts fantastic. But the second the tutorial is over, you're nothing but some street rat, uneducated idiot like every single other player in the game.

Compare the Maelstrom Mission (the mission shown in the playable Demo shown to a select few and Journalists) to Sinnerman, (the most rail road, linear mission around). The Maelstrom mission is what this game should have been. It has;

> 1. Stat checks that actually matter

>2. Different endings depending on how you handle it and how you solve it.

>3. Different changes to other missions and who you interact with at a later date.

While the Sinnerman Side Job is only two paths. You can quickly rush around the back of the car and kill the guy, or you get locked into the most annoying bullshit imaginable. Not only that, but the weather itself is coded to be day time. I did it at night time and by the time I got to the guy, it magically just turned day time. Going even further, you cannot save the guy you are working for. If you try, you will fail. I have tried to kill the cop, even fully killed him, but then the guy you're working for magically dies or the cop revives himself and then kills the guy. It's utter bullshit and all because there is no voice acting lines for the guy coming back to life. They can't just rewrite the quest to fix that and give you more choice, the choice is set in stone and made for you. It's the complete and utter illusion of choice. He has no lines, no more voice acting, so he dies. You cannot save him. If there was no voice acting, they could simply add a new line of dialogue onto him and have him kill the man he wants.

Yep maybe the full voice acting is the problem but it is just one part of the problem the other part is the genre change and i can't understand why they are changed it? ( maybe the simple looter-shooter action adventure is more sellable?)

 

[dream_sequence]

I agree in regards to VA being a limiting factor for RPGs. They at least should have kept the MC silent in dialogues. I hated it in fallout 4 as well, but that game is not a good example of RPG either.
Playing corpo is especially bad for immersion, the only time you sound intelligent is when you have the 'corpo' dialogue choice; even the voice tone changes.
Old school isometric RPGs were the best...
Also, CB is still tagged as RPG in GOG, so yeah

 

[PepeSmug]

They just didn't give themselves enough time to produce high quality RPG content. A voiced MC certainly doesn't help, but even in that context there are still a lot of quests which suffer from the glaring absence of options that wouldn't even have required additional voiced dialogue from the player to work.

Chaotic management, lack of prioritization, you name it.

 

[morgado]

Your argument is ill-thought out and argued.

There is literally NO emergent behaviour or gameplay in CO2077. All those gang wars you come across? Pre-scripted events that the game rolls to see if they trigger whenever you're nearby. I've seen the same gun fights, street scenes etc re-occur frequently in exactly the same place every single time.

As for gameplay options, it's severely limited and isn't close even to Deus Ex - a 22 year old game. Crowds do not react dynamically to situations. Most choices wind back to the same story outcomes. There are less than a dozen factors in your entire playthrough that will affect the outcome of how the story plays out, but even then the main beats are the same, just mildly tweaked according to pre-scripted invisible gauges and the progress % of the three main threads you see in the chatacter menu.

Even comparing this to New Vegas (itself hardly a bastion of immersive sims) is an insult to New Vegas, which was far more dynamic with a LOT more gameplay variables ans player agency, even before the hardcore mode.

Cyberounk 2077 is closer to Oblivion or Skyrim in terms of how shallow and non-reactive its world and options truly are, and how watered down it is a genuine RPG.

 

[urza7]

Your argument is ill-thought out and argued.

There is literally NO emergent behaviour or gameplay in CO2077. All those gang wars you come across? Pre-scripted events that the game rolls to see if they trigger whenever you're nearby. I've seen the same gun fights, street scenes etc re-occur frequently in exactly the same place every single time.

As for gameplay options, it's severely limited and isn't close even to Deus Ex - a 22 year old game. Crowds do not react dynamically to situations. Most choices wind back to the same story outcomes. There are less than a dozen factors in your entire playthrough that will affect the outcome of how the story plays out, but even then the main beats are the same, just mildly tweaked according to pre-scripted invisible gauges and the progress % of the three main threads you see in the chatacter menu.

Even comparing this to New Vegas (itself hardly a bastion of immersive sims) is an insult to New Vegas, which was far more dynamic with a LOT more gameplay variables ans player agency, even before the hardcore mode.

Cyberounk 2077 is closer to Oblivion or Skyrim in terms of how shallow and non-reactive its world and options truly are, and how watered down it is a genuine RPG.

Is this for me? If for me do you understand what i want to say with my post? Lot of CP 2077 guys can't understand the fact that games like New Vegas has impactful decisions for the game world (example above). They are saying that it is only working in the Pen and Paper format.

 

[Agen7Smi7h]

Wrong wrong. It's simply not feasible. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending CDPR. They fucked up. But it should have never been marketed as an RPG. They did change it in 2018 if I remember correctly, but they did make this based on a PNP game. You simply can't do a long interactive story with multiple paths with voice acting. Have you seen the picture of the apparent script Cyberpunk had?

ALL Cyberpunk script, with side missions or just a main story ?

If you removed Voice Acting and gave proper diverging paths a go, it would be three times bigger than that at the very least and none of this accounts for the actual role playing element. Every single V is the same. You start as a corpo? It starts fantastic. But the second the tutorial is over, you're nothing but some street rat, uneducated idiot like every single other player in the game.

Three times bigger ? How did you exactly came with that number ? Can you show math ?

Voice acting has nothing to do with it, "just" actors reading. You create a story, cut it into pieces, make alternative paths and that's it. You just have to plan for it, which CDPR did not do, or not did it well.

And your starting location and backgrounds are just another aspect of Cyberpunk that is underutilized by CDPR. Another waste of opportunity.

Compare the Maelstrom Mission (the mission shown in the playable Demo shown to a select few and Journalists) to Sinnerman, (the most rail road, linear mission around). The Maelstrom mission is what this game should have been. It has;

> 1. Stat checks that actually matter

>2. Different endings depending on how you handle it and how you solve it.

>3. Different changes to other missions and who you interact with at a later date.

While the Sinnerman Side Job is only two paths. You can quickly rush around the back of the car and kill the guy, or you get locked into the most annoying bullshit imaginable. Not only that, but the weather itself is coded to be day time. I did it at night time and by the time I got to the guy, it magically just turned day time. Going even further, you cannot save the guy you are working for. If you try, you will fail. I have tried to kill the cop, even fully killed him, but then the guy you're working for magically dies or the cop revives himself and then kills the guy. It's utter bullshit and all because there is no voice acting lines for the guy coming back to life. They can't just rewrite the quest to fix that and give you more choice, the choice is set in stone and made for you. It's the complete and utter illusion of choice. He has no lines, no more voice acting, so he dies. You cannot save him. If there was no voice acting, they could simply add a new line of dialogue onto him and have him kill the man he wants.

I don't see your point here, you just describe a mission... Problem with CP is that, they (CDPR) made the game this way, or mission(s) in question. They have engine that they build themselves, so other then choice to do something this or that way, nothing is really prohibiting CDPR from making a more #choicematter game. They did not. It was a choice, not a technological limitation.

Story arcs in terms of complexity is NOTHING, compared to graphics engine, sound engine and other technical, especially hardware specific features it's really nothing. You want to see complex, try large database (large structure, not data) or source code. Compared to programmers (devs) daily lives, story with multiply arcs are childs play, it's a crossword puzzle from your daily newspaper.

 

[asirpakamui]

@Agen7Smi7h
Everything you said is wrong for one specific reason. We saw the kind of game we were supposed to get in the 48 minute released footage. They didn't "choose" to make the game this way. That was scrapped.

That footage is still on youtube. You can look it up yourself. [...]

 

[jj284b]

same... Story is great, and people are complaining about tertiary things being superfluous... those gigs and NCPD scans are not quests... those are just background filler given to player... this is not GTA... its selfcontained story with clear storytelling and ending. its about those stories you can experience... this is not a SANDBOX game... and it was never promoted as such

 

[Hexipoo]

I agree in regards to VA being a limiting factor for RPGs. They at least should have kept the MC silent in dialogues. I hated it in fallout 4 as well, but that game is not a good example of RPG either.
Playing corpo is especially bad for immersion, the only time you sound intelligent is when you have the 'corpo' dialogue choice; even the voice tone changes.
Old school isometric RPGs were the best...
Also, CB is still tagged as RPG in GOG, so yeah

This notion that voice acting is limiting is completely wrong. It's not expensive like it used to be, anyone can afford studio quality recording hardware these days, and the actors aren't expensive either, not in the grand scheme of things.

Who do you think is more expensive? Vs voice actors or Keanu Reeves? CLEARLY it's not about money. It's not even just Keanus voice, you realize he MoCapped every single scene he's in?

It's a decision not to make an RPG.

 

[jj284b]

This notion that voice acting is limiting is completely wrong. It's not expensive like it used to be, anyone can afford studio quality recording hardware these days, and the actors aren't expensive either, not in the grand scheme of things.

Who do you think is more expensive? Vs voice actors or Keanu Reeves? CLEARLY it's not about money. It's not even just Keanus voice, you realize he MoCapped every single scene he's in?

It's a decision not to make an RPG.

its still an RPG game... just not hardcore RPG some people would like it to be... but i think for these, there will be mods... same as for Witcher 3, which has some truly excellent overhaul mods that elevate the game on another level... but it will take time...


FYI, im also hardcore RPG fan, and i played Witcher 3 for 2000+ hours, trying all kinds of rebalance mods... i expect doing the same with CP2077...

 

[Hexipoo]

its still an RPG game..

You can call everything RPG if you try hard enough. I don't consider W3 an RPG either because you're playing a set character.

 

[jj284b]

You can call everything RPG if you try hard enough. I don't consider W3 an RPG either because you're playing a set character.

you are playing role of Geralt of Rivia, therefore its "Role Played Game".... same here... you are playing role of V... therefore its RPG

 

[Hexipoo]

you are playing role of Geralt of Rivia, therefore its "Role Played Game".... same here... you are playing role of V... therefore its RPG

You can say that about every game, Crash Bandicoot is a "role playing game" too with that logic.

 

[morgado]

Is this for me? If for me do you understand what i want to say with my post? Lot of CP 2077 guys can't understand the fact that games like New Vegas has impactful decisions for the game world (example above). They are saying that it is only working in the Pen and Paper format.

Apologies! It was very late (well, erm... ahem... early...) and I misread the context lol. Sorry

 

[asirpakamui]

you are playing role of Geralt of Rivia, therefore its "Role Played Game".... same here... you are playing role of V... therefore its RPG

That's the dumbest thing I've read all day.

This is not an RPG. Nor is Witcher 3. But Witcher 3 had considerably better story, characters, quests and diversity in handling a quest. Witcher 3 was more of an RPG than this, that doesn't make it RPG. Just better.

 

[Dr_Sinister420]

you are playing role of Geralt of Rivia, therefore its "Role Played Game".... same here... you are playing role of V... therefore its RPG

Finally, someone understands.