Nilfgaard Handbuff Still Needs a Nerf

[Barracuda88]

Somewhat ironically, I had a positive record with Handbuff against Brouver Dwarves. The Schirrú/Eithné variant was another matter entirely though.

Somewhat Ironically, my Eithne/Schirru match vs handbuff the other day went like this:
-Knight --> Compression
-Assire --> Eithne to Compression
-2nd Knight --> Schirru
Round Two ->
Vicovaro Medic to steal my Farseer---> Ida to AT
2nd Vicovaro to steal my Skirmisher ---> I'm up a creek
Even played Aglais to his mandrake and still ended up losing by like a handful of points.

C'mon mang!

 

[Bondonkadonk]

Aye, hard to believe they nerfed dwarves to pieces like that, and then left cards like Ointment untouched

Dwarves were being played by well over 45% of the playerbase with an extremely high WR, the only reason their WR wasn't sky high was down to the sheer amount of mirror matches. They didn't have a solid counter and could beat almost any faction and any archetype. They were rightly nerfed and have literally no connection to ointment. I'm honestly not seeing the comparison here, care to shed some light on what dwarves have to do with a NG bronze? A bronze that isn't even in used in many NG decks and, funnily enough, isn't used in many of the handbuff NG decks anymore because it's too risky of a brick.

 

[erathias]

I think "Handbuff " Cards ( Aguara, Spotter ) should be balanced.

Handbuff Card can't boost a SPY

Advantage => Aguara will be really Playable

 

[NomanPeopled]

Somewhat Ironically, my Eithne/Schirru match vs handbuff the other day went like this:
-Knight --> Compression
-Assire --> Eithne to Compression
-2nd Knight --> Schirru
Round Two ->
Vicovaro Medic to steal my Farseer---> Ida to AT
2nd Vicovaro to steal my Skirmisher ---> I'm up a creek
Even played Aglais to his mandrake and still ended up losing by like a handful of points.

C'mon mang!

Yeah, Spell'tael and anything that even somewhat resembles it usually starts murdering Handbuff r1 and only stops when it's time to dance on its pithy remains ... not sure what went wrong there.
The stolen Skirmisher surely didn't break your deck, how'd they manage to eke out a win from there?

 

[iamthedave]

Somewhat Ironically, my Eithne/Schirru match vs handbuff the other day went like this:
-Knight --> Compression
-Assire --> Eithne to Compression
-2nd Knight --> Schirru
Round Two ->
Vicovaro Medic to steal my Farseer---> Ida to AT
2nd Vicovaro to steal my Skirmisher ---> I'm up a creek
Even played Aglais to his mandrake and still ended up losing by like a handful of points.

C'mon mang!

So what did he play to actually win? You completely denied his central combo. Where were his points coming from? The skirmisher plus mandrake is only a 12 point bronze, isn't he?

Also, this sounds like a slight misplay. If you had THIS much hate, wouldn't it have been easier to let him play into super-mega scorches? Even if he partially offset his points you'd have chewed through anything he put down until you had a couple of magnes/spotters lined up.

Dwarves were being played by well over 45% of the playerbase with an extremely high WR, the only reason their WR wasn't sky high was down to the sheer amount of mirror matches. They didn't have a solid counter and could beat almost any faction and any archetype. They were rightly nerfed and have literally no connection to ointment. I'm honestly not seeing the comparison here, care to shed some light on what dwarves have to do with a NG bronze? A bronze that isn't even in used in many NG decks and, funnily enough, isn't used in many of the handbuff NG decks anymore because it's too risky of a brick.

I may be wrong on this one, but can't magnes accidentally pull an ointment as well?

 

[Void_Singer]

[...]
I may be wrong on this one, but can't magnes accidentally pull an ointment as well?

yup, unlike novice, they are pure random, and can't be canceled. Only way to guarantee them is not have anything else to pull

 

[NomanPeopled]

Also, this sounds like a slight misplay. If you had THIS much hate, wouldn't it have been easier to let him play into super-mega scorches?

It depends on the deck. Decks that can put up respectable points themselves are often better off keeping their trump plays for r3, as they're not necessary for r1.

But I can certainly tell you that in the very rare case that I have more than three fatties in the opener, I'm going to swap at least one. Playing three removals against my setup is a pretty good bet.

I may be wrong on this one, but can't magnes accidentally pull an ointment as well?

Ya. The Ointment version thus plays very differently. The entire pressure r1 has to come from Spotters and Triss. It absolutely needs to win r1 or lose it with (usually) two Spotters on the board.
Because of that, Recon is more important, which leaves less space for setup redundancies and tech cards like Medic.
Never even mind the bricking problems post-setup, exacerbated by increased vulnerability to Mandrake and gy hate.
The advantage is increased power potential.

Judging by gwentup numbers, at most 30% of Handbuff NG decks are sporting Ointments. (That is assuming that all Emhyr decks with Ointments are Handbuff.)

 

[Barracuda88]

Yeah, Spell'tael and anything that even somewhat resembles it usually starts murdering Handbuff r1 and only stops when it's time to dance on its pithy remains ... not sure what went wrong there.
The stolen Skirmisher surely didn't break your deck, how'd they manage to eke out a win from there?

So what did he play to actually win? You completely denied his central combo. Where were his points coming from? The skirmisher plus mandrake is only a 12 point bronze, isn't he?

Also, this sounds like a slight misplay. If you had THIS much hate, wouldn't it have been easier to let him play into super-mega scorches? Even if he partially offset his points you'd have chewed through anything he put down until you had a couple of magnes/spotters lined up.

Well, he held all/most of the spotters and magnes, as well as Leo, all of which still turned into 15-17 point cards (19 for Leo played into Cantarella) and the stolen Skirmisher is a 18-point card to finish with. My 18-point Sentries just couldn't quite hang.

You're right though, I may have been better off letting him develop his cheese and then trying to lineup some scorches/figurines/mandrake late.

p.s. Once, I played a spy into a handbuff deck and the dude boosted and grabbed THAT and proceeded to beat me Didn't even matter that he had a bricked 19-point card at the end.

 

[iamthedave]

Well, he held all/most of the spotters and magnes, as well as Leo, all of which still turned into 15-17 point cards (19 for Leo played into Cantarella) and the stolen Skirmisher is a 18-point card to finish with. My 18-point Sentries just couldn't quite hang.

You're right though, I may have been better off letting him develop his cheese and then trying to lineup some scorches/figurines/mandrake late.

p.s. Once, I played a spy into a handbuff deck and the dude boosted and grabbed THAT and proceeded to beat me Didn't even matter that he had a bricked 19-point card at the end.

I think you were dead right to artefact the first knight, but I'd definitely try holding scorch/eithne for a later cheese storm and see how it plays out. Depending on the hand, of course. If I open up with scorch and schirru I'm definitely going pyromaniac, but if I had something on top of those I'd try and get them to play into bigger value.

Were you running standard spellatael, with value from sentries?

 

[NomanPeopled]

Well, he held all/most of the spotters and magnes, as well as Leo, all of which still turned into 15-17 point cards (19 for Leo played into Cantarella) and the stolen Skirmisher is a 18-point card to finish with. My 18-point Sentries just couldn't quite hang.

Yeah, Sentries sort of got drive-by nerfed by everything else receiving a buff, sadly.
15-17 points are what can be expected from non-combo Spotters, or a mandraked Peter. Certainly a plan C.

p.s. Once, I played a spy into a handbuff deck and the dude boosted and grabbed THAT and proceeded to beat me Didn't even matter that he had a bricked 19-point card at the end.

Another plan C
Although, come to think of it ... if I'm going to go down one card anyway ... hm. May have to try that more often. Guess it would depend on the coin.

Got recently addicted to an atrocious concept deck though, so Handbuff might have to take a break for while.

 

[Barracuda88]

I think you were dead right to artefact the first knight, but I'd definitely try holding scorch/eithne for a later cheese storm and see how it plays out. Depending on the hand, of course. If I open up with scorch and schirru I'm definitely going pyromaniac, but if I had something on top of those I'd try and get them to play into bigger value.

Were you running standard spellatael, with value from sentries?

Yeah, sentries as win-con, but no spare scorch, one AT, and with some skirmishers thrown in for early tempo.

 

[Jeydra]

Somewhat Ironically, my Eithne/Schirru match vs handbuff the other day went like this:
-Knight --> Compression
-Assire --> Eithne to Compression
-2nd Knight --> Schirru
Round Two ->
Vicovaro Medic to steal my Farseer---> Ida to AT
2nd Vicovaro to steal my Skirmisher ---> I'm up a creek
Even played Aglais to his mandrake and still ended up losing by like a handful of points.

C'mon mang!

I think you did it wrong. What you should have done was let him buff his Knight, and then use your Compression / Aglais Mandrake / Scorches (using Eithne to recast Scorch) to kill his buffed cards. He won't be able to stagger his units very well since you have cards that can knock them down (Skirmisher / Ida). Eithne has a sterling win rate vs. Emhyr for a reason.

 

[TheEpicWhale]

Well, I still think this deck isn't to hard to beat.
But now that more people are starting to play it, i really got this to say about it.
It is a friggin boring deck to fight against.
I started auto forfeiting them in casual.
There will be 0 surprises vs this deck.

 

[NomanPeopled]

Honestly though, is there anything surprising in any other deck strong enough to constitute a metagame factor? Or most casual decks, at this stage?

The revival was short-lived although some still play it (including me, occasionally). At least I get to play against it on occasion. And yeah, from this side of the curtain it still looks beatable ...

 

[Jeydra]

Well, I still think this deck isn't to hard to beat.
But now that more people are starting to play it, i really got this to say about it.
It is a friggin boring deck to fight against.
I started auto forfeiting them in casual.
There will be 0 surprises vs this deck.

Eh? There're zero surprises coming out of any leader with only one viable archetype (Arachas Queen, Harald, Movran, etc). If you're getting surprised vs. these decks, your meta knowledge needs polishing.

 

[Barracuda88]

Eh? There're zero surprises coming out of any leader with only one viable archetype (Arachas Queen, Harald, Movran, etc). If you're getting surprised vs. these decks, your meta knowledge needs polishing.

I think he means other decks are at least more likely to react to how you play against them. To this deck, it literally does not matter what you do. They will play the same cards in the same order every single time. 3 shields, Leo, 3 spotters, Assire, Triss, repeat whatever blah blah blah.

 

[partci]

... They will play the same cards in the same order every single time. 3 shields, Leo, 3 spotters, Assire, Triss, repeat whatever blah blah blah.

You can say this about absolutely every Gwent deck nowadays.

 

[iamthedave]

You can say this about absolutely every Gwent deck nowadays.

You always could. I have no idea what people are talking about when they say 'these days'. Every spellatael deck was the same, every WH deck was the same (back when it was good), every decent deck was the same. Every decent deck in every decent card game is just about the same. In Magic the Gathering the top decks usually vary by maybe two cards, with a different sideboard depending on the player.

It's kind of tedious seeing people consistently complain about Gwent being samey, as if this is some problem that needs to be attended to rather than a fundamental problem with TCGs since their inception.

 

[TheEpicWhale]

I think he means other decks are at least more likely to react to how you play against them. To this deck, it literally does not matter what you do. They will play the same cards in the same order every single time. 3 shields, Leo, 3 spotters, Assire, Triss, repeat whatever blah blah blah.

This exactly, I might as well not be in the game.

Yes, most decks field the same units, but there is a sort of dynamic.

 

[NomanPeopled]

iamthedave

It's not even a property of CCGs specifically. The most successful strategies will reach some level of uniformity in any competitive system. It's simply more readily apparent in CCGs because you can compare deck lists.