So...there is somebody watching this thread, interesting. LOL! 
( I really coudn't resist )
( I really coudn't resist )
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I've been waiting and dreaming about this game like many people here since around 2013 and before the game was announced I was hoping and dreaming that cyberpunk would make a comeback in true rpg form and so it is not unrealistic to say I've been waiting for this game 20+ years. I want this game yesterday but I don't mind waiting another year or more for a third person option.
I understand CDPR has a vision and I respect very much their creative ability and passion for what they do and I think they make great games...this doesn't however translate into infallibility. Since CDPR is and has been asking for customer feedback and allowing us the opportunity to voice our opinions of what we the consumers want, I'll continue to do just that so long as I am allowed or CDPR says 'we're not adding TPP, get over it'.
But well... if you think silly be my guess, but specialized media is already saying that CP2077 is a shooter game. Don't bother yourself to deny the truth arguing me... from all the people in this forum I am probably the less tended to it. And all of this is easily checkable. Sadly I would never do it for free just to make a point.
Well, I am dropping the case. I only made an account here to complain and I don't want this to be typical. CDPR before E3 was one of my favorite developers. But as I said, to not hear the customers on this matter is a clearly a flaw in project management. Also, the set of official reasons that sustain the FPP choice seems to exist only to justify a bad call. The problem is that bad decisions used to came along with the need for more bad decisions. As project manager I know they are obviously considering the TPP. Changing or not, I just hope them to make decisions not so unilaterally in the future. And yes, I feel this bad for CP2077 FPP choice after saw the gameplay. It is a shooting game indeed. I only hope I can see Cyberpunk 2020 as RPG in the years to come.
After rewatching the demo a countless number of times, quite frankly, I hope they keep focusing on that FPP view. I prefer TPP in games generally speaking, but from what I've seen in this demo, the tradeoffs of switching to FPP are actually worth it in this game. The dynamic dialogue system is a marvel to behold.
After E3 gamepress and youtuber who so demo talk and praise HUD and how is good how that is one of the reason game is FPP, even in interview CDPR say yes so many things will be on HUD and you can do that in TPP that is also one of the reasons it is FPP, and when gameplay show up what from that great HUD was so impressive or so good that need to be FPP like realy gun icon and bulet count ? point of interest that was shown around you ? quest info ? with out kidding HUD is Batman Arkham HUD different color, nothing new nothing impressive that work in Batman in TPP had a mode for zoom in for Investigation all was good and fine and in TPP.
It's always been third person. Just do both if it really worries you guys but regardless I don't think much people will not buy the game just because it's a FPP based game. Many FPP games have been extremely successful and this could be one of those. Better yet it could be the best, leading the history of First Person games
I prefer TPP, and instinctively wish CP2077 was just that, however I understand FPP in this situation to a degree. I'll explain, with my own solution toward the end.
Anyone who says that a great story can't be told in FPP has already forgotten Far Cry, Bioshock Infinite, Dues Ex: Human Revolution, etc. And don't forget Golden Eye, and the first Elder Scrolls games like Dagger Fall where also FPP. I can remember the immersion with Dagger Fall specifically. I do admit that I am one of those who actually finds it easier to role play when I can see my character moving through the world. There is some psychology to this and I believe VR has brought it to my attention why FPP doesn't work for me as well on a flat screen.
Viewing a game on a flat screen there is already an immersion breaker or fourth wall between the player and the game. In theater this is the invisible plane between the stage and the audience sitting in the auditorium. It is the "screen" or "wall" through which the audience views a scene or dramatic performance. This concept holds true for video games as well no matter the level of interactivity. In actuality, I AM an unseen force hovering over or behind my character, choosing options and deciding where they go from a controller pad. In a FPP game, the game designer is trying to get around this by placing the camera from the POV of the characters eyes. It works from a functional aspect for shooters and such, but not so much for story based games as we are so use to seeing characters play a role on a screen in television production and cinema. In other words, we accept the fourth wall, and are predisposed to watching things from the point of the audience. What makes games so enticing is that you can actually effect the play and stage before you; pulling the actor's strings so to speak.
Only in VR can this wall separating stage/game and audience/player be fully broken. In VR my FOV as the character is somewhat close to what I (and they) can see in real life, there is head tracking, and my hands become the characters hands literally. This requires a different kind of storytelling, but not too dissimilar from what designers attempt with FPP stories in traditional games. I believe this is why FPP on a flat screen lacks something when pursuing an involved story design. I'm already sitting on a couch or a swivel chair, I know this, and I just want to see the character I am manipulating play out their story on screen, versus an attempt to put me inside of them. In FPP VR, I am not sitting on my couch as it were, I am inside the game itself and "wearing the character" seems natural.
Can a compelling story and experience be done with FPP on a traditional screen? Yes, it can. I have mentioned a few examples already and there are more if anyone would like to add. But I'd argue what you really want to do as a designer is have the experience VR provides as far as FPP goes. Doing FPP on a screen is like half way there, so it looses the full audience experience of TPP and doesn't quite deliver true experiential FPP as it should. It's somewhere lost in the middle.
Fiction has a similar issue and choice between the novelist writing in first person or third person. The idea behind first person fiction is the same attempt to try and push the reader further into the head of the character. In novels the fourth wall is in your mind rather a plane existing in the real world but whether a person "sees" the happenings in the book as first or third person is really up to the reader and not so much from how the writer uses it. I'd wager even in a FPP novel, the reader doesn't experience the book as if it were a virtual reality perspective. Most people claim to see any novel, regardless of author-chosen-perspective, as if it were a cut film or from beyond the fourth wall.
So, am I advocating to turn CP2077 into a VR experience? No. It would have to be designed that way from the ground up. Abandoning FPP and going to TPP? No, absolutely not. What I AM discussing is why this FPP might be causing a good number of people to be disappointed. CP2077 is a game about a character which I have a hand in creating, but ultimately lives 3 to 10 feet away from me on a television or monitor. Without VR, I am an interacting audience member whether the designer intends it or not. They can force more immersion by using FPP but it will not have the exact effect they are really looking for. That is why I am suggesting a hybrid approach.
The CP2077 demo game play footage was fantastic and the FPP was done thoughtfully and effectively. My favorite use of this was the animation getting into Dexter's car and the conversation afterwards, the encounter with the ripper doc, and jacking in to characters/systems. However, I am still a member of the auditorium, looking into the experience. In a way, FPP story games have a strange halfway-ness that can only be described as if it were your favorite television series, be it Game of Thrones or Stranger Things, told from the perspective of Hardcore Henry. Imagine how it would feel if Altered Carbon was told from the FPP of Kovacs rather than the fourth wall where we actually see him act. Sometimes FPP or POV of the actor does work in film and cinema but not generally as much as with Hardcore Henry (which is a film I love precisely for its novelty use of FPP.)
You (cdprojekt) have argued that the reason this is mostly FPP is because unlike the Witcher series with Geralt, this game is meant to be experienced from the players perspective within the story. After seeing the footage, however, I am not so sure that this is what's happening. I never felt like I was V or needed to be behind her eyes. Interestingly, I wanted to see more of her. She has her own voice and personality like any other character on screen. I am all in for being a part of her or his creation, but I didn't really feel like I was anymore V than I was Adam Jensen. Adam Jensen is Adam Jensen and V seems like V to me. I have no desire to be inside V unless I could truly break the fourth wall in virtual embodiment. I'd rather see V interact with her world. This is the same issue I had with Jensen as well. I liked him, and wanted to see him more staged with his supporting characters and environment in more ways than cutscenes. The use of TPP during the cover system in Dues was a great way to add a little more of that in.
The hybrid TPP and FPP system I am talking about would not a be an optional TPP or FPP experience. It would be a single all encompassing camera system that took a little from both, changing the camera during certain exchanges or experiences. Using FPP on the operating table with the ripper doc is an exceptional use of that perspective and might be also the perspective of choice for moving through the very dense city itself and searching for clues. But what uses of TPP could you imagine to compliment the FPP? Some hybrid examples I can think of would be looking at the early Ultima games. These games used TPP for maps and FPP for dungeons and battles. The early Persona games also used this form of perspective hybridization. Silent Hill 4: The Room, oddly yet effectively used FPP for "the room" the character was trapped in and TPP for the dream-like dungeon sequences. I believe the designers used the FPP for the actual apartment room in order to sync the player with Henry. This wasn't just Henry's room he was stuck in, it was an apartment you were both stuck in together, and so the FPP worked for this surprisingly well. You can take this design philosophy and pair it with CP2077 nicely. But again, we got to see Henry interact with his world through the dungeon sequences and those parts filled that particular need for the players wanting to be interactive spectators to Henry's story rather Henry himself.
I think every person that is disappointed with the lack of TPP has their own reasons but I can say with some confidence that mostly everyone would like to see more of V in the interactive portions of the game. Possibly adding TPP during crouching, covering, crawling, and even climbing could be just right. Another thing to try might be switching to FPP from the perspective of the supporting characters during conversations so the audience can see V while she/he is talking or making choices and then switching back to V's FPP when the other character is giving dialogue. Something more dramatic would be to use TPP in V's apartment and some indoor locations while keeping the FPP for the main parts of the dense city and combat/clue gathering. The obvious path forward for the combat would be to add an over-the-shoulder TPP perspective in "some" situations or attacks. I believe the immersive FPP works great for exploration (Myst anyone?), but the unique perspective of Leon in RE4 can not be overstated enough when it comes to implementing action and characterization together. That is why it has been imitated so much. Is there a combat situation or particular combat action you can think of where this temporary perspective might add something for the player desiring to see V in the environment a little more? In my opinion, there are no shortage of actions for which the camera could shift to TPP in CP2077.
I hope this message is read by someone in development as it is meant to be truly constructive and not hyper critical or bitter. I went to college for commercial art and at times question my video production degree and specific multimedia career path. Funny story, they implemented a video game design curriculum and major the very year I was already graduating. Go figure, and nuts. Cheers! : )
Anyone who says that a great story can't be told in FPP has already forgotten Far Cry, Bioshock Infinite, Dues Ex: Human Revolution, etc. And don't forget Golden Eye, and the first Elder Scrolls games like Dagger Fall where also FPP. I can remember the immersion with Dagger Fall specifically. I do admit that I am one of those who actually finds it easier to role play when I can see my character moving through the world. There is some psychology to this and I believe VR has brought it to my attention why FPP doesn't work for me as well on a flat screen.
Viewing a game on a flat screen there is already an immersion breaker or fourth wall between the player and the game. In theater this is the invisible plane between the stage and the audience sitting in the auditorium. It is the "screen" or "wall" through which the audience views a scene or dramatic performance. This concept holds true for video games as well no matter the level of interactivity. In actuality, I AM an unseen force hovering over or behind my character, choosing options and deciding where they go from a controller pad. In a FPP game, the game designer is trying to get around this by placing the camera from the POV of the characters eyes. It works from a functional aspect for shooters and such, but not so much for story based games as we are so use to seeing characters play a role on a screen in television production and cinema. In other words, we accept the fourth wall, and are predisposed to watching things from the point of the audience. What makes games so enticing is that you can actually effect the play and stage before you; pulling the actor's strings so to speak.
Only in VR can this wall separating stage/game and audience/player be fully broken. In VR my FOV as the character is somewhat close to what I (and they) can see in real life, there is head tracking, and my hands become the characters hands literally. This requires a different kind of storytelling, but not too dissimilar from what designers attempt with FPP stories in traditional games. I believe this is why FPP on a flat screen lacks something when pursuing an involved story design. I'm already sitting on a couch or a swivel chair, I know this, and I just want to see the character I am manipulating play out their story on screen, versus an attempt to put me inside of them. In FPP VR, I am not sitting on my couch as it were, I am inside the game itself and "wearing the character" seems natural.
Can a compelling story and experience be done with FPP on a traditional screen? Yes, it can. I have mentioned a few examples already and there are more if anyone would like to add. But I'd argue what you really want to do as a designer is have the experience VR provides as far as FPP goes. Doing FPP on a screen is like half way there, so it looses the full audience experience of TPP and doesn't quite deliver true experiential FPP as it should. It's somewhere lost in the middle.
Fiction has a similar issue and choice between the novelist writing in first person or third person. The idea behind first person fiction is the same attempt to try and push the reader further into the head of the character. In novels the fourth wall is in your mind rather a plane existing in the real world but whether a person "sees" the happenings in the book as first or third person is really up to the reader and not so much from how the writer uses it. I'd wager even in a FPP novel, the reader doesn't experience the book as if it were a virtual reality perspective. Most people claim to see any novel, regardless of author-chosen-perspective, as if it were a cut film or from beyond the fourth wall.
So, am I advocating to turn CP2077 into a VR experience? No. It would have to be designed that way from the ground up. Abandoning FPP and going to TPP? No, absolutely not. What I AM discussing is why this FPP might be causing a good number of people to be disappointed. CP2077 is a game about a character which I have a hand in creating, but ultimately lives 3 to 10 feet away from me on a television or monitor. Without VR, I am an interacting audience member whether the designer intends it or not. They can force more immersion by using FPP but it will not have the exact effect they are really looking for. That is why I am suggesting a hybrid approach.
The CP2077 demo game play footage was fantastic and the FPP was done thoughtfully and effectively. My favorite use of this was the animation getting into Dexter's car and the conversation afterwards, the encounter with the ripper doc, and jacking in to characters/systems. However, I am still a member of the auditorium, looking into the experience. In a way, FPP story games have a strange halfway-ness that can only be described as if it were your favorite television series, be it Game of Thrones or Stranger Things, told from the perspective of Hardcore Henry. Imagine how it would feel if Altered Carbon was told from the FPP of Kovacs rather than the fourth wall where we actually see him act. Sometimes FPP or POV of the actor does work in film and cinema but not generally as much as with Hardcore Henry (which is a film I love precisely for its novelty use of FPP.)
You (cdprojekt) have argued that the reason this is mostly FPP is because unlike the Witcher series with Geralt, this game is meant to be experienced from the players perspective within the story. After seeing the footage, however, I am not so sure that this is what's happening. I never felt like I was V or needed to be behind her eyes. Interestingly, I wanted to see more of her. She has her own voice and personality like any other character on screen. I am all in for being a part of her or his creation, but I didn't really feel like I was anymore V than I was Adam Jensen. Adam Jensen is Adam Jensen and V seems like V to me. I have no desire to be inside V unless I could truly break the fourth wall in virtual embodiment. I'd rather see V interact with her world. This is the same issue I had with Jensen as well. I liked him, and wanted to see him more staged with his supporting characters and environment in more ways than cutscenes. The use of TPP during the cover system in Dues was a great way to add a little more of that in.
The hybrid TPP and FPP system I am talking about would not a be an optional TPP or FPP experience. It would be a single all encompassing camera system that took a little from both, changing the camera during certain exchanges or experiences. Using FPP on the operating table with the ripper doc is an exceptional use of that perspective and might be also the perspective of choice for moving through the very dense city itself and searching for clues. But what uses of TPP could you imagine to compliment the FPP? Some hybrid examples I can think of would be looking at the early Ultima games. These games used TPP for maps and FPP for dungeons and battles. The early Persona games also used this form of perspective hybridization. Silent Hill 4: The Room, oddly yet effectively used FPP for "the room" the character was trapped in and TPP for the dream-like dungeon sequences. I believe the designers used the FPP for the actual apartment room in order to sync the player with Henry. This wasn't just Henry's room he was stuck in, it was an apartment you were both stuck in together, and so the FPP worked for this surprisingly well. You can take this design philosophy and pair it with CP2077 nicely. But again, we got to see Henry interact with his world through the dungeon sequences and those parts filled that particular need for the players wanting to be interactive spectators to Henry's story rather Henry himself.
I think every person that is disappointed with the lack of TPP has their own reasons but I can say with some confidence that mostly everyone would like to see more of V in the interactive portions of the game. Possibly adding TPP during crouching, covering, crawling, and even climbing could be just right. Another thing to try might be switching to FPP from the perspective of the supporting characters during conversations so the audience can see V while she/he is talking or making choices and then switching back to V's FPP when the other character is giving dialogue. Something more dramatic would be to use TPP in V's apartment and some indoor locations while keeping the FPP for the main parts of the dense city and combat/clue gathering. The obvious path forward for the combat would be to add an over-the-shoulder TPP perspective in "some" situations or attacks. I believe the immersive FPP works great for exploration (Myst anyone?), but the unique perspective of Leon in RE4 can not be overstated enough when it comes to implementing action and characterization together. That is why it has been imitated so much. Is there a combat situation or particular combat action you can think of where this temporary perspective might add something for the player desiring to see V in the environment a little more? In my opinion, there are no shortage of actions for which the camera could shift to TPP in CP2077.
I hope this message is read by someone in development as it is meant to be truly constructive and not hyper critical or bitter. I went to college for commercial art and at times question my video production degree and specific multimedia career path. Funny story, they implemented a video game design curriculum and major the very year I was already graduating. Go figure, and nuts. Cheers! : )
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Most FFP game who make a lot of money and successful are shooters, again i doubt it will lead anything let alone history of FPP.
And this is isn't a shooting game? I love CDPR and what they do. I want to be optimistic so yes, it is possible for it to be the best FPP Game in time of release. "IF" they do a full FPP based game. Should be something totally different if they really want to make a huge statement for the Gaming industry.
NO constant switching from FPP to TPP would be bad, and not fun it was not fun in Deus Ex let alone here in bigger city with more NPC and stuff, option for full on TPP and FPP and player can pick how he want to play, again i am not against FPP i don't want to be remove i just would like TPP option, like i really wish and hope all of you who want VR option to get that option after releass date.
smh you don't have the say whether or not everyone doesn't have the choice to play as FPP. Do both = the best of both worlds. It's not that hard to not switch back to FPP if you don't want to. Or to change the settings in the game so that you don't have to worry about seeing a single first person shot. *Facepalm* I say BOTH but more towards FPP if you want to be entirely different from other RPGS. Oh and Skyrim was one of the BOTH. lol and yes it is a FPS FPP
It is shooter yes and they say again and again it is not FPS, but it is and again all they show is not something new shooting in to walls and destroying them is done Battlefield do that? slowtime or slowmotion was also done to, piercing cover was done in COD modern warfare in all COD after that hell Mass Effect have ammo that let you pierc small cover, destructive environment was also done.
I like cyberpunk i want to be good but all they show was meh and ok but nothing so great like gamepress and youtubers was telling.
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BabyRivian What is your problem ?
I am one of those who experience severe motion sickness when playing first person games. For people like me it is not about not wanting to play 1st person games, however immersive they may be, but not being able to play. I am a loyal fan of the Witcher series, with over 600 hours of Wild Hunt (and DLCs) alone, so please give people like myself a third person option so we could also enjoy your new creation!
You just completely derailed off the topic and did not respond to my statement. Now I don't know where the heck you jumped to. That was not what we were discussing but ok lol. Anyways to my response is easy. "WORK IN PROGRESS" "ALPHA" "EVERYTHING IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE" "DEMO" It is not final. lol. But everything you just said also is just saying that Games are Games. What you're trying to check out is the Bee Simulator since you want something different LOL You literally just tried to find an escape to which you turned to bashing the game lol. But hey that's you I mean the others here on this forum loved it and will buy it regardless. <3
I don't want something different what i want is full TPP to be add like option with FPP so i can pick what way i want to play, i post my reasons why TPP is more fun and better for me, i also say i would be happy to wait one more year to get that if need.
CDPR say when is ready good they move it little longer and give us option for both FPP and TPP end of story.
CDPR say when is ready good they move it little longer and give us option for both FPP and TPP end of story.
hid most of the text so it could be smaller , but i agree with the user above and i think its a good read , i'm just gonna add my 2 cents , over the shoulder camera works best if it can be implemented , it can be close enough to feel personal which helps with immersion and it gives those who want TPP to see their characters the option to do so , and as for melee players like me (if it is possible in game) it works much better than FPP . from what i gather , the TPP option could affect the sales in a very positive way and it will probably worth the cost .
Sorry No offence or trying to be rude but I couldn't understand a single sentence you made. What I got out of it is that you're okay with TPP and FPP in the game which yes okay I wouldn't argue with that I'd be more than content. I just prefer FPP all the way. And also it won't be released for another couple years. Again it's in "ALPHA" it is in the early middle stage.
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