[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[Ayinde_Palmer]

I outright disagree with that assessment. Let's look at what the game delivers, regardless of player choice:

1. V takes the initial gig with Jackie to start bettering his/her situation in life.
2. What was the whole montage scene about at the beginning if not to show V and Jackie taking risks, learning the streets, and starting to become a force to be reckoned with?
3. Why do they actively pursue fixers in the hopes of getting better and better gigs?
4. What's the point of taking the big risk/reward gig with Dex?
5. Why is there so much dialogue surrounding the Afterlife, the details about getting a drink named after you, or the prestige and excitement of seeing Rogue in the flesh?
6. What about the repeated, ongoing dialogue about making it to the "big leagues" if it's not their goal?
7. What about V's potential reactions to Jackie getting too pumped about the mission when they're taking the Delamain to hotel?
8. What about V's reaction to Jackie's death, and the "...see you in the big leagues..." comment at the end?
9. Most significantly -- if V did not support that ideal, why would s/he stay with Jackie throughout the years? Diving into ever deeper water with him...listening to him carry on about the "big leagues"...risking life and limb on a regular basis...but V truly feels differently and was privately and secretly pursuing other goals?

I would challenge the narrative validity of any argument that V was not actively pursuing the idea of the "big leagues", fame, glory, reputation, and "immortality" among the names that would be remembered as legendary throughout Night City. They could easily have made money and a comfy living working as nothing but thugs, or guards, or small-time fixers themselves. They didn't. V intentionally and passionately sought out better opportunities with Jackie as edgerunners, while directly vocalizing his/her intentions, reasoning, and goals numerous times throughout the game. V can express a tamer, less gung ho attitude toward achieving that goal than Jackie...but there are exactly zero dialogue options that say, "I don't believe in what we're doing, Jackie. I don't want fame and immortality."

Spoiler: Tangent again...

^ That's part of the establishment of the characters, which is handled in rather extreme detail and clarity throughout the entire opening act of the game: from the intro scene, to V making Johnny's acquaintance for the first time. That's all part of the establishment. Very, very easy, I think, to not be following along with all of that since there's nothing preventing the player from doing all sorts of other stuff...for pretty much whatever reasons they can imagine. Extremely easy to lose track of or forget what the game has clearly, directly established.

That is arguably a true flaw with the design. It creates the illusion of being a total sandbox a little too strongly, when in fact, it's a far more established narrative with whole bunches of sandbox side-content. But there's not enough done, perhaps, during the early sequences especially, to progress the narrative so that the player receives the establishing details in a fluently paced way. As such, players may lose sight of these details over the course of their playthrough. They may superimpose what they want things to mean over what actually happened, and retroactively redefine (whether intentionally or unintentionally) "who V is" in their own minds...even though those desires and ideas directly conflict with the clearly established narrative elements.

So to say that all of those elements somehow "don't matter" is just not supportable. I can provide overwhelming evidence of V being a character that was sold on the pursuit of fame, wealth, and immortality. This can very much evolve or change once the game passes the heist mission -- but nothing will remove V from the fate of having started down that path. The theme of immortality, the reality of what it can mean, and the human cost it inherently exacts is the central spine of the dramatic action of the narrative. It can be explored and interpreted a number of different ways, but there's no way to simply toss that aside and pretend the game is actually about something else. The narrative will keep coming back to pop that imagination bubble.

As far as over-moralizing the endings...I can see that...but I'll disagree. It's a heady game. I think it's doing a smash-up job of letting the player know, no matter which path they choose at the end:

"And they did NOT live happily ever after..."

Or, using another classic literary device: Once you grab the wheel of fortune and ride to the top...the wheel does not simply stop turning. There's only one place to go.

Jackie was obsessed with that, V can choose to tell Jackie its not that important, and that dying to be a legend is to hefty a price. They can literally get intoman argument about it in the car.

I wouldn't say v doesn't want to succeed, its clear they do, but immortality and legend status is not the same as wanting to do very high paid mission. The motivation for Vs actions are purposefully allowed to be vague in Act 1.

Post automatically merged: Apr 17, 2021

Yes, no matter what position you take in the game, V is a merc. I'm not claiming V is a pure blank slate. This is one of the story things.

"So much dialogue"? The drink is an Act 1 thing that Jackie rambles about and you can go back to optionally later. Otherwise, the Rogue and Afterlife are important because you're a merc. I really think you're hung up on this idea you have that I must want to be able to completely define everything about V.


Big jobs are going to be the goal of a merc, for prestige or otherwise.

POTENTIAL reactions. Now you're on my side.

Most of the dialogue about "making it" comes from Jackie. It's honoring his memory in a way fitting for him.

It wasn't years, it was a handful of months. The best friend that rambles about the big leagues is practically a trope. I think we've gotten away from the discussion because I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to establish anymore. That one of V's predefined traits is being a merc? Ok. I don't think that affects anything I've said.

This is largely Act 1 fare that dies with Jackie. After this, you can play almost the entire game only expressing the sentiment that you just want to save yourself.

This is the closest we've gotten to agreeing, but I'd go the other way. It's too far up it's own ass with it's themes in the endings that it throws away any characterization the game lets you do in pursuit of the way they wanted the game to end. I'd actually like this game more if the endings were some stupid vague Fallout slideshow.

I don't know where you're getting "heady" from. The finale hits you with an "oops we actually can't save you lol" anticlimax with the follow-up conclusion that "you're a bad person because you chose arasaka/sun and you're going to die soon with that in mind" or "you're a good person because you chose the noble savages and you're going to die soon with that in mind". There is nothing moving or spectacular about these endings. They just tell you that you're going to die and that your V spent the rest of their life based on who you decided to help at the end.

A dark depressing ending doesn't make it good, as so many people seem to think.

Post automatically merged: Apr 17, 2021

Oh! You actually can do this, by the way. I don't remember the exact quote, but in the Delamain after Jackie is shot, you can yell at him that this is his fault for wanting to do big league shit.

sun ending doesn't cast V as a bad person

 

[EngryEngineer]

Jackie was obsessed with that, V can choose to tell Jackie its not that important, and that dying to be a legend is to hefty a price. They can literally get intoman argument about it in the car.

I wouldn't say v doesn't want to succeed, its clear they do, but immortality and legend status is not the same as wanting to do very high paid mission. The motivation for Vs actions are purposefully allowed to be vague in Act 1.

Post automatically merged: Apr 17, 2021

sun ending doesn't cast V as a bad person

I felt bad about the sun ending, but mostly just because I got really confused when choosing. My dream for this version of V was for him to become a virtual being and be with Alt, and it sounded like that was what the two worked out, let Johnny have the rotting meat sack, but then when it came time to choose V and Johnny were all fighting and flipping out, and I ended up going down the wrong path. I didn't retcon it though bc the depression and suicide run seemed really fitting afterwards.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

I felt bad about the sun ending, but mostly just because I got really confused when choosing. My dream for this version of V was for him to become a virtual being and be with Alt, and it sounded like that was what the two worked out, let Johnny have the rotting meat sack, but then when it came time to choose V and Johnny were all fighting and flipping out, and I ended up going down the wrong path. I didn't retcon it though bc the depression and suicide run seemed really fitting afterwards.

if you had a good relationship with Johnny, he doesn't want V to give up on life, And V doesn't want Johnny to die. in that case its a fight between who saves who. It was pretty confusing from the Johnny side, because the player controls Johnny instead of V.


As for the run, its not a suicide run, V intends to return.

 

[wyzman001]

All the seven ends are really dark and sad. Like really. we need a happy ending.


Edit: What do you think of the alternative endings, all of them are sad, and from what I see that people want at least one a happy one, atleast like a Top secret-Easter Egg, at least to achieve it with legendary clothes and level 50, or at least in extreme hard mode. What would be the best idea to fit?

just had this happen after calling River and soloing Arasaka .
woke up to River in my bed. ( at the mansion) . had some moments with him....wow ....never happened before

 

[nadsh]

sun ending doesn't cast V as a bad person

Just withdrawn and a bit depressed, if you don't count romanced Judy's reaction. Which I think tells more about Judy than V. Other things are defined that could be out of character though (hideous expensive clothing, never visiting Vic, mandatory snappy responses to Kerry and River, ..). It's still my favourite ending but compared to The Star it feels heavy handed with the "it's lonely at the top" message.

I'd argue even a character such as Geralt(who has a lot more pre-defined characterisation) isn't rewritten as a character based on how to accomplish a quest, which is what happens at the end of Cyberpunk. So in TW3 i have more control over the motivation of the character at the end than a game which sets up the notion of V as my character for the majority of the game.

I'm playing TW3 for the first time right now (just finished the crones/bloody baron questline) and you actually have quite some agency as Geralt. Aside for gender and appearance, it's almost on the same level of Shepard. The only fixed things are his background, some aspects of his personality and the fact that he cares about Ciri.

Having a character with a predefined identity and backstory also doesn't necessarily imply giving players no agency. I had way more control over Harry in Disco Elysium than most semidefined protagonists.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Just withdrawn and a bit depressed, if you don't count romanced Judy's reaction. Which I think tells more about Judy than V. Other things are defined that could be out of character though (hideous expensive clothing, never visiting Vic, mandatory snappy responses to Kerry and River, ..). It's still my favourite ending but compared to The Star it feels heavy handed with the "it's lonely at the top" message.

I'm playing TW3 for the first time right now (just finished the crones/bloody baron questline) and you actually have quite some agency as Geralt. Aside for gender and appearance, it's almost on the same level of Shepard. The only fixed things are his background, some aspects of his personality and the fact that he cares about Ciri.

Having a character with a predefined identity and backstory also doesn't necessarily imply giving players no agency. I had way more control over Harry in Disco Elysium than most semidefined protagonists.

Vik hasn't seen V in "awhile" in every ending. Its unclear what time any message is received, but keep in mind V expects this mission to last at least to the end of the month, if nothing goes wrong. Its likely this message happens while V is in space. This reads more to me like your mom or pop telling you to call more or visit, rather than V being a jerk. Also V doesn't have to be snappy to Kerry or River, those convos can play out with V reassuring them, or you can be snappy, thats up to the player.

I do think its like 2/3rds weighted towards lonely at top,

but I think this V ending is the one in which the most time that has passed, and V is sicker. It could easily just be wear and tear.

Post automatically merged: Apr 17, 2021

I would also count the major side questlines the impact the ending as within the main arc. They're not mandatory, but they feed into the main narrative.

yes, but those are variable, as you say, so they don't really count as V having a mostly fixed narrative. When you combine choosing the character's thoughts, understandings, motivations, major relationships, and half their activities, as well as the ending paths and final Choices, its hard to say that V's story is even half fixed. The bones of certain events are universal, but almost everything else is variable

 

[wright1978]

I don't know where you're getting "heady" from. The finale hits you with an "oops we actually can't save you lol" anticlimax with the follow-up conclusion that "you're a bad person because you chose arasaka/sun and you're going to die soon with that in mind" or "you're a good person because you chose the noble savages and you're going to die soon with that in mind". There is nothing moving or spectacular about these endings. They just tell you that you're going to die and that your V spent the rest of their life based on who you decided to help at the end.

A dark depressing ending doesn't make it good, as so many people seem to think.

it's simplistic trash to me. Complex dark endings could be well implemented but instead we got simplistic moralising trash based around whether V gets off on getting some nomads killed. Don't want to be a nomad, guess that means you ticked the box that all you ever wanted was to be a depressed loner boss of Afterlife. Personally i walked out having the character i played forced into an unfitting box and that's not heady.

 

[Rawls]

yes, but those are variable, as you say, so they don't really count as V having a mostly fixed narrative.

Did I say the narrative it's mostly fixed? If that's how it came off that's not what I meant. I said it's a range of choices within a general direction. There are clearly variables (hence different endings and prologues and dialogue). However, it's all in a general direction.

Spoiler: Story Spoilers

V wants to achieve immortality through fame and become a legend. So she becomes a merc and gets a big heist that's gonna make her dreams come true. It messes up. Her partners all die, and a chip is implanted in her head. After the chip is plugged in, she gets killed by Dex. Turns out the chip can keep her alive, but it's also taking her over with the digital ghost of Johnny Silverhand. She then tries to figure out how to get Johnny out of her head (here there are variable paths to get to that end). All the paths lead to her taking on or working with Arasaka. Depending on the path she chooses, she either (1) opts out and choose death (suicide ending); (2) chooses hoping the corpos can give her literal immortality (devil ending); (3) chooses the fame/glory version of immortality and becomes a legend (sun ending); chooses to stay with Alt as a digital construct and give Johnny your body - giving Johnny your mortality (temperance ending); (4) choose to leave the search for fame behind, and choose the relationship of a family instead (Star ending). Regardless, V is is either a digital construct or still seeking a cure with a nearby expiration date in the real world.

Regardless of V's choices, the narrative is always rumination on mortality and immortality ... with lots of thematic flavors involving class/corporate exploitation, as well as a cynical view of transhumanism. It definitely has a story to tell. I don't think that it's mostly fixed as far as what V can do within the story ... but the story and themes themselves are relatively set. And the story is clearly the main point ... most of the side content that doesn't impact the main quest is there to flavor the world. IMO it's pretty clearly a story game first and a sandbox second.

I don't really think any of us are saying anything that's all that different.

 

[nadsh]

Did I say the narrative it's mostly fixed? If that's how it came off that's not what I meant. I said it's a range of choices within a general direction. There are clearly variables (hence different endings and prologues and dialogue). However, it's all in a general direction.

Spoiler: Story Spoilers

V wants to achieve immortality through fame and become a legend. So she becomes a merc and gets a big heist that's gonna make her dreams come true. It messes up. Her partners all die, and a chip is implanted in her head. After the chip is plugged in, she gets killed by Dex. Turns out the chip can keep her alive, but it's also taking her over with the digital ghost of Johnny Silverhand. She then tries to figure out how to get Johnny out of her head (here there are variable paths to get to that end). All the paths lead to her taking on or working with Arasaka. Depending on the path she chooses, she either (1) opts out and choose death (suicide ending); (2) chooses hoping the corpos can give her literal immortality (devil ending); (3) chooses the fame/glory version of immortality and becomes a legend (sun ending); chooses to stay with Alt as a digital construct and give Johnny your body - giving Johnny your mortality (temperance ending); (4) choose to leave the search for fame behind, and choose the relationship of a family instead (Star ending). Regardless, V is is either a digital construct or still seeking a cure with a nearby expiration date in the real world.

Regardless of V's choices, the narrative is always rumination on mortality and immortality ... with lots of thematic flavors involving class/corporate exploitation, as well as a cynical view of transhumanism. It definitely has a story to tell. I don't think that it's mostly fixed as far as what V can do within the story ... but the story and themes themselves are relatively set. And the story is clearly the main point ... most of the side content that doesn't impact the main quest is there to flavor the world. IMO it's pretty clearly a story game first and a sandbox second.

I don't really think any of us are saying anything that's all that different.

What people that didn't connect that much with the Aldecaldos and Panam/Judy have issues with is the Star ending = family and friends association. If your V is closer to the people in NC (Vic, Kerry, River, Mama Wells, even people like Rogue on a superficial level) then it feels like the game is telling you "wrong choice! Wrong family and friends!"

 

[Rawls]

If your V is closer to the people in NC (Vic, Kerry, River, Mama Wells, even people like Rogue on a superficial level) then it feels like the game is telling you "wrong choice! Wrong family and friends!"

And that cognitive dissonance is a great example of one of the ways it's a somewhat set narrative. The game IMO tells us that Night City is not a place where V can experience peace. If you want to head canon V staying to live happily ever after with her friends in the City, I think that's fine ... but I also think that conclusion cuts against what the game has been telling us about the City.

 

[Didacgomez]

The game is not about V story, is about the Relic/Arasaka/Saburo/immortality.
The player has agency in character creation,gameplay style,background(lifepath),dialog and how he/she transverses the story and which allies wants to make (which unlock alternate endings).

V is just an edgerunner who get trapped in something bigger during a job that went downhill and the player has agency to try to solve his/her condition by either taking the straigth path (Devil or suicide endings) or trying to find alternative solutions. While trying to find a cure actually you can avoid a quite certain Corporate War and prevent Saburo to gain immortality.

Is not that different of a classic tabletop RPG campaign, where the story sets start and end point and general background of the world. How you solve the puzzles,fights,challenges that the Game Master puts between start and end is where you can role-play, still in a tabletop RPG the player agency is limited by the archetype/skills/rules so you cannot project yourself too much into the character because you will not be roleplaying really.

Romances don´t play any role in the story or the ending, since you can finish without romancing anyone. They are just romanceable because they are quest providers. Main problem I think (for some people), that Panam is both ally and participant in one ending .I was expecting her to die, not Saul but then you would have had tons of complains of people romancing Panam saying that it was not fair.

If your V is closer to the people in NC (Vic, Kerry, River, Mama Wells, even people like Rogue on a superficial level) then it feels like the game is telling you "wrong choice! Wrong family and friends!"

When I picked "sun"/"secret" I didn´t had the impression it was to stay with friends in NC ( you don´t know if you were going to stay in NC at all when you pick that decision) it was a decision along the lines of repeating Johnny Arasaka Tower Run or in secret classic action movie "one man/woman against the world", which leads quite naturally to be a badass Merc King/Queen of the Afterlife.

 

[Buckadoz]

And that cognitive dissonance is a great example of one of the ways it's a somewhat set narrative. The game IMO tells us that Night City is not a place where V can experience peace. If you want to head canon V staying to live happily ever after with her friends in the City, I think that's fine ... but I also think that conclusion cuts against what the game has been telling us about the City.

This is that lazy and reductive acceptance of themes at the expense of the characters themselves. If they wanted this to be the case, then characters like River shouldn't even exist.

 

[Rawls]

This is that lazy and reductive acceptance of themes at the expense of the characters themselves. If they wanted this to be the case, then characters like River shouldn't even exist.

Okay.

 

[Didacgomez]

This is that lazy and reductive acceptance of themes at the expense of the characters themselves. If they wanted this to be the case, then characters like River shouldn't even exist.

But NPCs exist here (and in any game) for story purposes, why River should not exist?He is a cop and opens quests related to crime...

 

[Buckadoz]

But NPCs exist here (and in any game) for story purposes, why River should not exist?He is a cop and opens quests related to crime...

Because River is someone who stays in Night City for his family and resolves to become a PI to help people, which is apparently completely antithetical because Night City bad.

 

[Didacgomez]

Because River is someone who stays in Night City for his family and resolves to become a PI to help people, which is apparently completely antithetical because Night City bad.

The game doesn´t tell that all NC people are bad... just look at Vic and Misty (very underrated NPCs in my opinion); the game tells that the city kills dreams,ambitions and burns people.
He becomes a PI because NCPD is BAD-I think he was also suspended from service?, I don´t remember exactly- and prefers to stay with his family a little bit out of guilt of not being with them when they needed him.

 

[Guest 4412420]

The game IMO tells us that Night City is not a place where V can experience peace. If you want to head canon V staying to live happily ever after with her friends in the City, I think that's fine ... but I also think that conclusion cuts against what the game has been telling us about the City.

The game also tells us that true friends like Jackie and love (if you pick "she loves you" response in Raymond Chandler Evening) are very rare in Night City, and V can find both of these things in NC. The game puts quite a bit of emphasis on interpersonal relationships V forms with others only for the endings to tell us that the nomads are the correct friends and if you prefer NC folks you picked wrong. Why give us options in the first place that goes against this set narrative?

Living in the badlands isn't easy either but all the struggles nomads face in their daily lives are seen as worthwhile because of the strong bonds they share but this very same thing for some reason doesn't apply to Night City.

 

[nadsh]

And that cognitive dissonance is a great example of one of the ways it's a somewhat set narrative. The game IMO tells us that Night City is not a place where V can experience peace. If you want to head canon V staying to live happily ever after with her friends in the City, I think that's fine ... but I also think that conclusion cuts against what the game has been telling us about the City.

There's a big jump between "V can care about people in NC more than about a clan that they met two weeks ago" and "V gets a happily ever after in NC".

If they really wanted to go with thematic endings, a fixed protagonist would have been better. Not even someone like Geralt, a completely fixed one like Joel. I'd rather be able to shape my V consistently until the ending or not at all than have my character railroaded into a box at the last minute.

Post automatically merged: Apr 17, 2021

When I picked "sun"/"secret" I didn´t had the impression it was to stay with friends in NC ( you don´t know if you were going to stay in NC at all when you pick that decision) it was a decision along the lines of repeating Johnny Arasaka Tower Run or in secret classic action movie "one man/woman against the world", which leads quite naturally to be a badass Merc King/Queen of the Afterlife.

That's fine for me, but it doesn't necessarily imply that my V prioritizes being a top Merc over friends and allies. Which the ending assumed for me.

 

[cergyn]

Romances don´t play any role in the story or the ending, since you can finish without romancing anyone. They are just romanceable because they are quest providers. Main problem I think (for some people), that Panam is both ally and participant in one ending .I was expecting her to die, not Saul but then you would have had tons of complains of people romancing Panam saying that it was not fair.

It is not, but it play major part in perception of this ending. I'm sure that star ending would not considered that happy if it was without Panam or Judy.

 

[Didacgomez]

The game also tells us that true friends like Jackie and love (if you pick "she loves you" response in Raymond Chandler Evening) are very rare in Night City, and V can find both of these things in NC. The game puts quite a bit of emphasis on interpersonal relationships V forms with others only for the endings to tell us that the nomads are the correct friends and if you prefer NC folks you picked wrong. Why give us options in the first place that goes against this set narrative?

It doesn´t go against the narrative, Nomads are the only ones willing to accept V as a family and take a suicide run to help him/her and they pay the highest price in blood (3?)-1st you had to help them also- this is quite strong as friendship (and actually, Johnny tells you few times before taking the decision that their deaths will weight over you).

Living in the badlands isn't easy either but all the struggles nomads face in their daily lives are seen as worthwhile because of the strong bonds they share but this very same thing for some reason doesn't apply to Night City.

Is not like real live at the end?, the game (and the tabletop) is a critic-you can play it without paying attention to any critic also, but then I think some of the story/endings discussion don´t make a lot of sense- of modern society (with a twist of technology and alternate timeline). Normally urban areas are considered more individualistic than rural ones (at least in modern western societies).
Also tabletop emphasizes this kind of individualism in NC (mentions how to avoid players killing each other,trust no one etc...) but describes Nomads as clans,families,nations...

That's fine for me, but it doesn't necessarily imply that my V prioritizes being a top Merc over friends and allies. Which the ending assumed for me.

But you did when you choose Rogue/secret, the ending is consequence of that decision.
In the terrace with Johnny there are not 10e6 Vs one for each player, story wise there is only one V common for all the players of CP2077; the journey was different (within the limits of the game, another topic perhaps) but the information you have in the terrace is common for all that have unlocked the same endings and the story writer intend is clear at that point.
What you want is a "sun" bis (or 3) where you be legend of afterlife (which is quite clear at the point you took the decision) + happy together with friends/romances or to stay in NC or PUT YOUR WISH; which since is a story driven game the writer decided it didn´t fit the narrative(+ how many endings variations are needed to satisfy all players?10,20?).

It is not, but it play major part in perception of this ending. I'm sure that star ending would not considered that happy if it was without Panam or Judy.

I was expecting Panam to be killed frankly, and I didn´t romance Judy... I just can imagine the thread in the this forum about how unfair was to kill one Romance (or two) and not the other two, so I imagine that CDPR thought that also. Star is not "happy" due to Panam/Judy for me, is because is the only that gives some hope of a new start (well I also like because the Basilisk, yells "Hardwired" but V kind of being Sarah and Panam being the Cowboy).