The (Open) Game World Discussion!

[wisdom000]

Nobody expects the physics in the game universe to be different from that of ours, but we can reasonably expect ideas which are sustainable in that universe because of the existence of other supplementary concepts. I imagine that people who needed to design and build a mobile city were able to do so because they had the right idea and the right stuff at hand.

Essentially, saying "if it does not exist right now, then it can't exist ever" is just incorrect; you can't say that something is impossible when no one has tried to do it. Do you think if people were tasked with designing a mobile city, that they would come up empty? Most importantly, you can't apply the restrictions of one scenario to all imaginable scenarios, that's also wrong.

Actually darlin, we CAN expect physics to work the same, and in fact will be quite dissapointed if they don't. The beauty of Cyberpunk 2020 is that the game designers payed really close attention to how things worked. They made a few leaps, but nothing beyond the realms of plausibility, in fact nothing that really even stretched plausibility all that much.

Even if hypothetically, you could uild your massive mobile city thing, where would it go? Bridges and overpasses on highways would prevent it from traveling on roads, uneven terrain would prevent it from moving off-road. The only place it could really function in one the great salt flats of Utah, a place where there is no food or water to be had.

It would also, by necessity, be extremely slow.

Take for example the Crawler, used to transport the space shuttle to the launch gantry.

Close to 3000 tonnes,

each crawler had 16 traction motors, powered by four 1,341 horsepower (1,000 kW) generators, in turn driven by two 2,750 horsepower (2,050 kW) V16 Alco diesel engines. Two 1,006 horsepower (750 kW) generators, driven by two 1,065 horsepower (794 kW) engines, were used for jacking, steering, lighting, and ventilating. Two 201 horsepower (150 kW) generators were also available to power the Mobile Launcher Platform. The crawler's tanks held 5,000 US gallons (19,000 l; 4,200 imp gal) of diesel fuel, and it burned 125.7 US gal/mi (296 l/km; 104.7 imp gal/mi).

It travels at 1 mile per hour. And it's entire life is spend driving back and forth on the same 3.5 mile stretch of reinforced road, which it takes an average of 5 hours to do one way.

Or take the equally impressive 360 ton Caterpillar 797. Yeah you could fit a small village on it, and it's even off-road capable... kind of, they can even make it up to 40mph. But even they are pretty limited in where they can go. Nomads do use these as mobile bases, but this is about as close as you are going to get, and these things are pretty limited in where they can go. And if they get anywhere near a city, then air strikes are called in and the whole mess goes up in flames. I wouldn't mind seeing something like this out in the nomad areas, but understand, it can't go out on the roads with out destroying them anytime it comes near a bridge or overpass, which would get the corporations and Government pissed enough to destroy it utterly. It can't cross bridges, it can't cross mountains, and it can't navigate on wooeded backroads or though narrow passages. It can't go on soft or wet ground, because it would sink. And the maintenance require to keep it running would be nothing short of monumental. Now it's pretty solid on armor, but the wheels by necessity are going to be vulnerable... and you don't want to imagine the logistics of changing a flat on one of these... it requires 6 of them, and each one costs 45 grand.

There is simply only so big something can get before it is no longer viable to travel over land effectively.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

I too said that we can expect the physics to be the same as ours, so I think you misread.

I think your point about huge structures crossing with difficulty on land is completely valid, but I expect people can come up with reasonable solutions, like a fleet of vehicles which clears the path before the city needs to pass from a certain point.

But honestly, speed isn't really a contentious point; no one would built these things for fast travel.

 

[wisdom000]

I too said that we can expect the physics to be the same as ours, so I think you misread.

I think your point about huge structures crossing with difficulty on land is completely valid, but I expect people can come up with reasonable solutions, like a fleet of vehicles which clears the path before the city needs to pass from a certain point.

But honestly, speed isn't really a contentious point; no one would built these things for fast travel.

Clearing the path how... demolishing bridges... that gets the military and the corporations pissed. Clear cutting forest tends to piss off the other nomads and eco-terrorists.

And while no one builds them for fast travel, them traveling faster than you can walk is probably a valid consideration, otherwise whats the point of it moving at all.

Really, V3 should, and will be, at least according to CDPR and Mike, disregarded completely, much to the collective sigh of relief from the Cyberpunk 2020 fanbase. It was a fun idea, but V3 never should have been called Cyberpunk... it all but killed R. Talsorain Games, and it's only with the anouncement of the video game that life is breathing into the company again. And the number one question most fans were worried about, was if it was going to be a continuation of Cyberpunk 2020, or V3. If it was V3, I imagine this forum would be a lot quieter than it is. At the very least you would likely not be seeing Sard, Redge, Eraser, Don Carnage, Chris, or myself. Which I guess, depending on who you ask, might be a good thing.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

...Really, V3 should, and will be, at least according to CDPR and Mike, disregarded completely...

Wait, what, was this confirmed?

 

[blank_redge]

...while no one builds them for fast travel, them traveling faster than you can walk is probably a valid consideration, otherwise whats the point of it moving at all.

This is the point I was going to bring up. Why have a moving city? What point would it serve? In what ways would it be superior to a static location city?

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I'm pretty sure it was stated by Mike in the off-topic thread that V3 was an alternate setting and not canon.

 

[wisdom000]

Wait, what, was this confirmed?

Yes

This is the point I was going to bring up. Why have a moving city? What point would it serve? In what ways would it be superior to a static location city?

Another excellent point...

 

[thewarsend]

This is the point I was going to bring up. Why have a moving city? What point would it serve? In what ways would it be superior to a static location city?

In game, it would serve no purpose and it would be a waste of resources. But i can think of a few real world applications, like moving the city away from the harms way before a natural disaster hits the city. (Such as tornado's, hurricanes, earth quakes, volcano's, meteor showers and so on. Anything you can get a early warning really.) But the power requirement would be enormous, so depending on that, rebuilding the city may make more sense.

 

[blank_redge]

Hm. For natural disasters, how "early" do we expect to get early warnings?

For something like a tornado or earthquake, if we assume that said mobile city moves slowly (which I'd expect it to,) I don't see it getting a reasonable amount of distance away, before said natural disaster hits.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

One reason why you would build a moving city is if you have a situation where you're constantly moving, but you don't want to rebuild somethings every time you settle down. I think moving cities are just about preserving and maintaining societal amenities despite having a nomadic lifestyle; this would indicate that the nomadic lifestyle in this case is something which is forced on the people who have to adopt it, i.e. their environment is incapable of facilitating a stationary lifestyle, and we can make any number of guesses as to why this might be the case.

But seriously, if CDPR and Mike aren't incorporating V3 into the game, then this whole discussion is pointless (and not that I doubt Wisdom's word, but I would like see more confirmation than that just for clarification).

I mean, the reason I thought seeing something like mobile cities would be cool was because of the interesting story implications, and perhaps interesting related missions for players who assume the Nomad role.

It should go without saying that we can have a wishlist of what we'd like to see in the game, but we shouldn't expect the Reds to deliver.

 

[thewarsend]

Hm. For natural disasters, how "early" do we expect to get early warnings?

For something like a tornado or earthquake, if we assume that said mobile city moves slowly (which I'd expect it to,) I don't see it getting a reasonable amount of distance away, before said natural disaster hits.

For air related disasters, you can get early warning days before the disaster happens. (Thanks to satellites. Not sure about earthquakes)

And the city would move pretty fast. It wouldn't be a giant, single piece city. It would be like a thousand "Caterpillar 797"'s attached to each other, each having their own four wheels and engines. (They have got pretty monstrous engines and they move really fast for their size.) Each carrying a small part of the city. And they all moving at same time from a single control room.

I wouldn't want anything similar to this in CP77, but it is possible.

 

[dragonbird]

But seriously, if CDPR and Mike aren't incorporating V3 into the game, then this whole discussion is pointless (and not that I doubt Wisdom's word, but I would like see more confirmation than that just for clarification).

This is the source comment, you can decide for yourself how to interpret it.
http://www.cyberpunk.net/forum/en/threads/1413-Yes-Occasionally-Mike-Pondsmith-Does-Show-Up-Here?p=26620&viewfull=1#post26620

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

Well, it seems to me that Mike is clarifying that the game will be based on CP2020's core history as opposed to the one established in V3, but I don't see how that precludes specific technology from appearing in CP77, unless there were some unique events in V3 which made it possible to build and use mobile cities.

Thanks for the link, dragon.

 

[wisdom000]

This is the source comment, you can decide for yourself how to interpret it.
http://www.cyberpunk.net/forum/en/threads/1413-Yes-Occasionally-Mike-Pondsmith-Does-Show-Up-Here?p=26620&viewfull=1#post26620

Like Cybergen, we consider V3 to be an alternate history; a "what if." story.

Not sure how many ways there are to interpret that.

 

[wisdom000]

Well, it seems to me that Mike is clarifying that the game will be based on CP2020's core history as opposed to the one established in V3, but I don't see how that precludes specific technology from appearing in CP77, unless there were some unique events in V3 which made it possible to build and use mobile cities.

Thanks for the link, dragon.

V3 threw all reality out the window... it had buildings tearing themselves down and rebuilding themselves, it had phones that would animate and eat you... and it has giant mobile cities that ignored all physics to travel across the landscape like the opening and ending sequences of Robot Carnival.

 

[wisdom000]

I mean, the reason I thought seeing something like mobile cities would be cool was because of the interesting story implications, and perhaps interesting related missions for players who assume the Nomad role.
.

Except it really kind of kills the nomad mystique altogether. Instead of being survivors living by the land and their wits and stayiong a step ahead of outlaw nomad groups, cops, and corporations... now they are just more city dwellers, only their city has wheels...

Yeah, that makes the whole role worthless.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

Like I said, the only reason we shouldn't expect elements from V3 to occur in the core history is if there was something unique in V3 which allowed said elements to exist, but other than that, it's not unreasonable to see an occurrence of V3 elements.

I'm getting the impression that V3 is just as out of touch with reality as some parts of CP2020 were in the 90s. I think if someone is clever enough, they can find a way to justify anything in the realm of theoretical possibilities, including a phone "animating and eating" you; depends on your definition of "animation" and "eating".

And maybe mobile cities kills what being a nomad is for you, but it's not necessary that it might for other people; especially not for fictional people who are forced into a nomadic lifestyle for one reason or another, and had the means and opportunity to provide themselves with some stability.

 

[dragonbird]

I interpreted it as a statement that V3 isn't canon, so they can pick and choose. If they want to incorporate V3 elements in, and think it fits, they can, but they won't feel compelled to do so.

So no, it doesn't provide a reason why mobile cities absolutely cannot exist, but it also means there's going to have to be a good explanation for the existence, not just "Because V3".

Anyway, nice idea, but I definitely don't buy the disaster-prevention reason for their existence (if they had that much tech, they could probably come up with better solutions than moving the city), and I don't really see what they would bring to a game.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

What they would bring to the game depends on the context. I'm not in favour of adding anything which doesn't compliment the overall storytelling and gameplay aspects.

 

[wisdom000]

Like I said, the only reason we shouldn't expect elements from V3 to occur in the core history is if there was something unique in V3 which allowed said elements to exist, but other than that, it's not unreasonable to see an occurrence of V3 elements.

Whats unique is that it ignores reality completely, going for a more gonzo anime feel.

I'm getting the impression that V3 is just as out of touch with reality as some parts of CP2020 were in the 90s. I think if someone is clever enough, they can find a way to justify anything in the realm of theoretical possibilities, including a phone "animating and eating" you; depends on your definition of "animation" and "eating".

Except there was nothing in 2020 that was really out of touch with reality. The tech was advanced, but reasonably so. It was PLAUSIBLE. V3 and its elements were just pure fiction... even from the view point of the 2020 tech, it wasn't plausible... it was too far out there. It was Saints Row 3.... it was fun, but it most certainly was not a logical extension of the games that came before it.

And maybe mobile cities kills what being a nomad is for you, but it's not necessary that it might for other people; especially not for fictional people who are forced into a nomadic lifestyle for one reason or another, and had the means and opportunity to provide themselves with some stability.

It's not me... it's the description of the nomad Role itself. If you are living in a city, even if that city moves, you aren't a nomad. The city that moves might be nomadic, but it's citizens are just more people living in the city. If their lives are stable, if they have a roof over their heads, then they aren't nomads, they are just citizens. It's like saying a med tech who doesn't practice medicine is still a medtech... A corp who gives up all his money and goes to live as a farm hand isn;t really a corp anymore. A nomad who gives up the open road for a nice apartment and a 9 to 5 job isn't a nomad anymore.

They no longer practice the skills and lifestyles that define their roles.