The Nilfgaard thread - How did you like the depiction of the Black Ones?

[CTPhipps]

The Nilfgaard thread - How did you like the depiction of the Black Ones?

I am a known Nilfgaard lover.

Amazing, I know.

I admit, however, that I prefer the Nilfgaard to be a group which is not just another side of the coin to the North though. I like to think of them as fundamentally DIFFERENT from the Northerners. More civilized, more ruthless, and more capable of large-scale atrocity because they have all the same flaws as the North but do it BETTER and more efficiently.

I also hate Emhyr.

However, this isn't a thread about MY opinion of the Nilfgaard, it's an opinion of YOU the poster. Nilfgaard was introduced to the gamers via Assassins of Kings and were set up as a major Machiavellian force operating behind the scenes. We had their plan to assassinate kings, a scummy ambassador, but also a more righteous take on them as well.

The Baroness Lavalette, for example, is on Team Nilfgaard and she's a lovely intelligent and charismatic woman.

Likewise, Cynthia seemed like a perfectly nice mage.

So, it was interesting to see how Nilfgaard would be portrayed in the next game (which we've all since played). What did you think of CD_Red's take on the World's Greatest Empire? Did you like it? What would you have done differently? How would you like to see it in different games? Would you have made it more or less evil?

This is the thread for discussing the Empire of the Black Ones.

 

[Lesota]

I like the general in the Witcher 3, he gave me such a nice saddle! He can take Ciri as his wife, I approve.
If we set a side invasion thing they have 1 major flaw - slavery. Which isn't nice but we don't have enough information how bad is it. Because there is slavery and there is slavery. Are children of slaves born as free people or as slaves too? How you become a slave? Is it punishment for a crimes/debts or you can sell yourself? Can you kill you legally kill your slave?

 

[CTPhipps]

Honestly, I'm torn on the depiction of Nilfgaard in the game.

The Witcher series thrives on moral ambiguity. It's part of what makes it a truly MATURE series rather than the nudity or violence. It's not like the Stormcloaks versus the Empire in that both have their ups and downs but who cares, really, but lots of deeply interesting details.
The problem is, I think they kind of made Nilfgaard look too good.

People are like, "What's so wrong with the Black Ones?"

Which is a serious mistake, IMHO.

We got the near-comical depiction of King Radovid the Stern as Caligula meets Prince Joffrey. He's butchering nonhumans and witches while being depicted as a demigod to his men. He's hated by Redanians and Northerners alike. Really, it's like he's the Fantasy version of Hitler in the setting and no one should want him to win.

However, the Black Ones get a pretty big case of white-washing as the only really evil thing they do in the game is smash a bunch of Griffon eggs (a dangerous monster) and have a peasant whipped for giving them rotten food (a harsh but arguably lite sentence). They hang the arsonist but he really was trying to kill the Dwarf.

We also get to meet General Voorhis, know Baroness La Valette is a Nilfgaardian supporter, and get to know his sexy daughters.

They even fight with us against the Wild Hunt?

So Why NOT side with them?

Which is really-really eye-rolling to me after Cintra (which doesn't even get mentioned in the game). You'd think Dandelion, at the very least, would have a strong opinion on the subject or Triss Merrigold, who DIED fighting them the first time.

There's a few good moments like the massacre mission which Ves and Geralt can prevent as well as the fact the Bloody baron's men are brutalizing the locals but they're Temerians working for Nilfgaard so it seems removed.

We needed some serious warcrimes on the Nilfgaard side and I am disappointed we didn't get to see the slavery, genocide of Cintra, and mass executions which would have made the story more interesting.

 

[Ortwyn]

Nilfgaard looks so good, because Radovid is mad. Anyway, the good guys in this game are Temerians.

And this time Nilfgaardians commit less atrocities, because Emhyr believes he can conquer the whole North and keep it.

The last attempt which ended at Brenna - I do not think they would be able to subdue North back then. But if the local nobles lose their leader, some of them might be willing to switch the sides (Count Maravel, the Bloody Baron).

 

[carlos2033]

Its not only baroness La Valette its seems to me that most people are Nilfgard supporters, if we forgot invade thing endings show them as best option, they do some crimes in Velen and White Orchad but we se much worse crimes done by Radovid in north in the end the look more like they liberating us from Radovid than actual invaders, there is no downside of their victory, they even pardon lodge so maybe they bit whitewashed in that department considering they history with sorceresses,maybe if stayed that way or north is not shown so evil maybe choices would be harder to make.

They even fight with us against the Wild Hunt?

I look to it more like both they and skellige dont have much of a choice in that situation, you open portal and wild hunt appear its fight them or die, and they went there to conquer skellige not to help us fight wild hunt, just wrong place in wrong time.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

However, the Black Ones get a pretty big case of white-washing as the only really evil thing they do in the game is smash a bunch of Griffon eggs (a dangerous monster) and have a peasant whipped for giving them rotten food (a harsh but arguably lite sentence). They hang the arsonist but he really was trying to kill the Dwarf.

We needed some serious warcrimes on the Nilfgaard side and I am disappointed we didn't get to see the slavery, genocide of Cintra, and mass executions which would have made the story more interesting.

Actually, we do have war crimes. In one of the quests they execute prisoners of war. Geralt gets his contract about a missing patrol, and finds out that it was not really a patrol but a death squad.

Overall, they are represented no better and no worse than Temerian/Redanian troops, but it is exactly the way it should be.

 

[CTPhipps]

Actually, we do have war crimes. In one of the quests they execute prisoners of war. Geralt gets his contract about a missing patrol, and finds out that it was not really a patrol but a death squad.

Overall, they are represented no better and no worse than Temerian/Redanian troops, but it is exactly the way it should be.

Yeah, I think that diminishes the Nilfgaardians greatly.

They're not equal to the North but BETTER.

Better at killing and terror.

But also other things.

While I derided the Stormcloaks vs. Empire choice, I think it did a good job of making the two sides distinct. The Stormcloaks are racists and authoritarian but they have religious freedom while are also the people who are getting ruled. The Empire is cosmopolitan and they're oppressive. It'd be nice to know what sort of issues are being fought against between Redania and the Nilfgaardians.

---------- Updated at 05:08 PM ----------

Nilfgaard looks so good, because Radovid is mad. Anyway, the good guys in this game are Temerians.
And this time Nilfgaardians commit less atrocities, because Emhyr believes he can conquer the whole North and keep it.
The last attempt which ended at Brenna - I do not think they would be able to subdue North back then. But if the local nobles lose their leader, some of them might be willing to switch the sides (Count Maravel, the Bloody Baron).

I don't know, I've never really felt a bond to Temeria and I kind of was always off-put by Roche's blind patriotism. Geralt isn't from Rivia, he's from nowhere since he was raised in Kaer Morhen, and he wanders the North freely. If he has a loyalty, it's to the North as a whole rather than Foltest's lands. It's kind of like Temeria is Texas. Yeah, Texas will be free of the Alien Invasion but only if they sell New Mexico and California down the river.

So the whole, "Temeria regains its freedom" ending doesn't mean anything for me because what about the rest of the North?
I mean, it's just not all that important. Do other gamers feel a loyalty to Temeria? I'm genuinely curious.

Its not only baroness La Valette its seems to me that most people are Nilfgard supporters, if we forgot invade thing endings show them as best option, they do some crimes in Velen and White Orchad but we se much worse crimes done by Radovid in north in the end the look more like they liberating us from Radovid than actual invaders, there is no downside of their victory, they even pardon lodge so maybe they bit whitewashed in that department considering they history with sorceresses,maybe if stayed that way or north is not shown so evil maybe choices would be harder to make.

I dunno, White Orchard seems to be the "Pulse" of the Invasion and citizens are pretty divided.

The Innkeeper is ambivalent. The Nilfgaard aren't making her day any worse but numerous citizens hate the Nilfgaard with a passion along with everyone who collaborate with them. They're also cowardly taking it out on those who have no choice but to do so.

I do think the Innkeeper was a good example of it. "Yeah, they're bad but Foltest wasn't much better."

I look to it more like both they and skellige dont have much of a choice in that situation, you open portal and wild hunt appear its fight them or die, and they went there to conquer skellige not to help us fight wild hunt, just wrong place in wrong time.

Good point.

 

[DuranA]

Overall, they are represented no better and no worse than Temerian/Redanian troops, but it is exactly the way it should be.

A single Nilfgaardian quartermaster acting outside of his own military orders by executing prisoners of war can hardly be compared to the genocide Redania is engaging against mages, alchemists and the like. Nilfgaard isn't burning books of the Oxenfurt Library, Nilfgaard isn't slaughtering non-humans for the morals of the masses.

So no, they cannot compare. Acting as if the game portrays each side with as many faults as the other is a load of hogwash.

 

[CTPhipps]

A single Nilfgaardian quartermaster acting outside of his own military orders by executing prisoners of war can hardly be compared to the genocide Redania is engaging against mages, alchemists and the like. Nilfgaard isn't burning books of the Oxenfurt Library, Nilfgaard isn't slaughtering non-humans for the morals of the masses.

So no, they cannot compare. Acting as if the game portrays each side with as many faults as the other is a load of hogwash.

Novigrad is conducting a brutal but entirely in-house pogrom of mages on its Hierarch's authority. Now, if Radovid WINS, yes, but the Eternal Fire is independent of Redania and so is Novigrad.

Novigrad is neutral in the war after all.

It should also be known the Redanians are DISGUSTED with their King because of his support of the pogrom, even covertly.

The mages can and are fighting for the North against Nilfgaard in a "save Triss" ending carryover. I've had the Conclave mentioned a few times in my game.

 

[DuranA]

Novigrad is conducting a brutal but entirely in-house pogrom of mages on its Hierarch's authority. Now, if Radovid WINS, yes, but the Eternal Fire is independent of Redania and so is Novigrad.

The king of beggars makes it clear that the Church of the Eternal is Radovid's lapdog and that they control the city. It's Radovid gains control over it after all, and the witch hunters are operating outside of Novigrad as well despite those mentions of the conclave.

Radovid isn't just supporting the pogrom, he's the main reason behind it.

 

[CTPhipps]

The king of beggars makes it clear that the Church of the Eternal is Radovid's lapdog and that they control the city. It's Radovid gains control over it after all, and the witch hunters are operating outside of Novigrad as well despite those mentions of the conclave.

Radovid isn't just supporting the pogrom, he's the main reason behind it.

The Eternal Fire has been anti-magic from the very beginning and a group of crazy ass fanatics. They've also always ruled Novigrad with a brutal oppressive hand. See "The Eternal Fire." Dudu would have been tortured to death and murdered as a doppler had been he been found according to that short story so nothing has changed there.

Radovid, however, has been promoting the Church and its powers due to said anti-magic policy. Redania, normally, considers it an evil weird cult and this is confirmed in "The World of the Witcher."

Even so while the Church is supported by Radovid, the city is Neutral and openly not supporting him with Nilfgaardians welcome to visit as we see.

I don't disagree Radovid is evil but I think its important to remember that his anti-magic bias and insanity is limited to a small part of the North at the time of the war. 200 mages in Novigrad, 170 of whom are killed, while thousands of people are dying elsewhere.

I do agree that Radovid's atrociites are very IN YOUR FACE and open -- which is something I'm not too happy about as it seems to let the Nilfgaardians off the hook.

 

[DuranA]

the city is Neutral and openly not supporting him with Nilfgaardians welcome to visit as we see.

Then in Act 3 Radovid just waltzes in and takes over the city, making it part of Redania.

What's your point anyway? That somehow the North is less scummy? Radovid is the last northern monarch, he's the only real resistance against Nilfgaard.

 

[CTPhipps]

Then in Act 3 Radovid just waltzes in and takes over the city, making it part of Redania.

What's your point anyway? That somehow the North is less scummy? Radovid is the last northern monarch, he's the only real resistance against Nilfgaard.

He's the most powerful remaining Northern monarch but he's only the leader of an alliance of nobility from all nations in the North. Like Foltest was.

My point is that the North gets a lot of attention to Radovid's atrocities while the Nilfgaard doesn't and I think that kind of makes the story lesser.

 

[Jou05]

They sadly whitewashed Nilfgaard in TW3 and since they already simplified and reduced the politics of TW2 to Redania vs Nilfgaard there is no real
reason not to choose the latter

Especially considering what a joke Radovid became

 

[Ortwyn]

I don't know, I've never really felt a bond to Temeria and I kind of was always off-put by Roche's blind patriotism. Geralt isn't from Rivia, he's from nowhere since he was raised in Kaer Morhen, and he wanders the North freely. If he has a loyalty, it's to the North as a whole rather than Foltest's lands. It's kind of like Temeria is Texas. Yeah, Texas will be free of the Alien Invasion but only if they sell New Mexico and California down the river.

So the whole, "Temeria regains its freedom" ending doesn't mean anything for me because what about the rest of the North?
I mean, it's just not all that important. Do other gamers feel a loyalty to Temeria? I'm genuinely curious.

I do not feel a loyalty to Temeria. I am loyal to Roche, because I consider him to be my friend.

Rivia belongs to queen Meve which is not present in the game (what happened to her?). Anyway, Geralt Roger Eric du Haute-Bellegarde for the win.

Geralt is not loyal to the North, as he said in the books: "If Nilfgaardian parents pay me, I will defend Nilfgaardian kids." He is a witcher, he kills monsters. That's his destiny. When he gets involved in politics, it is either personal or someone forces him (like Foltest who makes him his bodyguard against his will).

 

[jj284b]

Radovid was actually one of main adversaries in Witcher games, and many people dont even realize it.. He was financing Order of the Flame in Witcher 1, married Adda to get a chance to take over Temeria, then in W2, he brought the Order to Loc Muine and wiped the Lodge and Sorcerers with their help... later he created Witch Hunters with the same goals... then in W3 he attacked his former ally Henselt and took over Kaedwen... Since W1, he was constantly conspiring in the background to take over Northern Kingdoms, and he succeeded in that even in spite of Nilfgardian invasion...

 

[CTPhipps]

More or less how I feel.

Reasons of State as I played it

Me and Geralt: Radovid is DEAD, YAY!

Roche: Hey, I forgot to mention to this but I've made a secret treaty with the Nilfgaard which turns over Aedirn and Lyria as well as allies Temeria with Nilfgaard as a vassal state! We're basically the Scoia'tael now! Except, we won't be betrayed like they were!

Me and Geralt: Are you....Emhyr is a lying-lying person.

Roche: Oh PISHAW!

Dijkstra: I WILL CONTINUE FIGHTING NILFGAARD!

Me: YAY! You're aces in my book!

Dijkstra: After I KILL your close friends!

Me: Are you serious, Game?

Game: YEP! Choose Roche and thus GUARANTEE Nilfgaard's victory.

Me: No.

Game: What? But Roche is the awesome.

Me: I am not choosing Nilfgaard! I don't care if Roche has suddenly decided to become Marshal Petain.

Game: But you love Roche! AND VES! Remember you love Ves and wanted a non-rapey role for her in the game.

Me: I.am.not.choosing.Nilfgaard.

Game: But GERALT WOULD.

Me: Why is Dijkstra even trying to kill Roche!? It makes no damn sense! Roche would fight it tooth and nail too!

Game: REASONS!

Me: Screw this, my Geralt is out of here.

Game: YOU'LL REGRET THIS! YOUR GERALT IS BETRAYING HIMSELF!

Me: I'm also choosing Triss!

Game: DAMN YOU, PLAYER! WE WANT YOU TO CHOOSE YENNEFER! OH AND CIRI TO BE THE EMPRESS!

Me: WELL NA NA NA, HEY HEY, GOODBYE!

 

[carlos2033]

Radovid was actually one of main adversaries in Witcher games, and many people dont even realize it.. He was financing Order of the Flame in Witcher 1, married Adda to get a chance to take over Temeria, then in W2, he brought the Order to Loc Muine and wiped the Lodge and Sorcerers with their help... later he created Witch Hunters with the same goals... then in W3 he attacked his former ally Henselt and took over Kaedwen... Since W1, he was constantly conspiring in the background to take over Northern Kingdom, and he succeeded in that even in spite of Nilfgardian invasion...

But in the same time nilfgard is conspiring against him and north, making Adda striga again, destroying salamandra which was also Radovid connected to, both trying to have agreement with henselt in W2, then nilfgard kidnapped Anais and give it to henselt while Radovid wanted to return her for his own power, bot kingdoms was scheming against temeria from W1, and Geralt always was somehow draged in politics even if he dont like it

---------- Updated at 05:55 PM ----------

Roche: Hey, I forgot to mention to this but I've made a secret treaty with the Nilfgaard which turns over Aedirn and Lyria as well as allies Temeria with Nilfgaard as a vassal state! We're basically the Scoia'tael now! Except, we won't be betrayed like they were!

Maybe its because geralt newer told him who is ordered Foltest assasination

 

[DuranA]

Radovid was actually one of main adversaries in Witcher games

How the hell is that? He was certainly a major political player in the first two games but how does make him one of the main adversaries? Since by adversary you must mean Geralt.

In TW1 the main opposing forces were Salamandra and Jacques, though notably not the Order of the Flaming Rose as a whole which you could ally for good sound reasons. While Radovid did initially support them he turned away from that support when he realized just what they were doing and even helped you crush them. Of course he did so for his own political gains but still.

in TW2 he's the only monarch who is trying to stabilize the North after the deaths of several monarchs. He's building armies, fortresses and trying to cope with the political mess that Letho left behind.

He doesn't want to butcher the mages, in fact he wants to rebuild the conclave and he actually does so if you save Triss, but if you don't save Triss then Nilfgaard force his hand to arrest the mages and determine what happened after they reveal the Lodge's plans but that spirals out of control as Roche notes that they were originally supposed to arrest only the criminal mages but then the soldiers decided that EVERY mage was a criminal.

Then suddenly in TW3 he becomes this mass murdered that wants to butcher thousands of mages, that shuts downs and burns libraries of priceless books, that hangs alchemists, herbalists and pellars.

Me and Geralt: Are you....Emhyr is a lying-lying person.

Roche: Oh PISHAW!

Dijkstra: I WILL CONTINUE FIGHTING NILFGAARD!

You forgot the most important mind fuck out of all this.

DIjkstra: I SIGNED THE SAME TREATY AS THEY DID BUT I'LL NOW KILL THEM ALL BECAUSE I WILL NEVER SUBMIT TO NILFGAARD.

Me: Why don't you just reveal to them that Emhyr's political position is precarious and that if they just keep fighting they'll win. AS YOU ALREADY KNOW.

Dijkstra: Because I AM BECOME THE MUSTACHE TWIRLING VILLAIN AND THEY MUST DIE SO THAT I MAY SIT AS SUPREME RULER OF ALL THE NORTH.

No seriously that's how retarded Reasons of State is.

 

[CTPhipps]

Maybe its because geralt newer told him who is ordered Foltest assasination

I give CD_Red credit for the Roche and Ves/Letho conversation at Kaer Morhen.

But telling Roche about Nilfgaard's role in Foltest's death would have been awkward to.

Just imagine the conversation.

Roche: Why shouldn't we trust Emhyr?

Geralt: Well I was talking to Letho yesterday....

Roche: WHAT?

Geralt: I was helping him fake his death and escape bounty hunters.

Roche: ....

Geralt: Listen, he was paid to kill Foltest by Nilfgaard but they broke the dea....wait, where are you going?

Then suddenly in TW3 he becomes this mass murdered that wants to butcher thousands of mages, that shuts downs and burns libraries of priceless books, that hangs alchemists, herbalists and pellars.

It's really lazy storytelling.

"Why does this guy want to kill everyone?"

"Because he's INSANE."

I wanted to see ruthless Magnificent Bastards in a chess game for the North and you forced to choose which one you wanted to support.

Emryhr who is ruthless and evil but civilized
Or
Radovid who is ruthless and evil but local

I want to give you some Redpoints but can't for some reason.

---------- Updated at 06:03 PM ----------

You forgot the most important mind fuck out of all this.

DIjkstra: I SIGNED THE SAME TREATY AS THEY DID BUT I'LL NOW KILL THEM ALL BECAUSE I WILL NEVER SUBMIT TO NILFGAARD.

Me: Why don't you just reveal to them that Emhyr's political position is precarious and that if they just keep fighting they'll win. AS YOU ALREADY KNOW.

Dijkstra: Because I AM BECOME THE MUSTACHE TWIRLING VILLAIN AND THEY MUST DIE SO THAT I MAY SIT AS SUPREME RULER OF ALL THE NORTH.

No seriously that's how retarded Reasons of State is.

You've said it better than I could have.

Hell, even if Dijki was going to suddenly become conqueror happy there's the fact Roche would probably ally with it on those same terms as with Nilfgaard. You'd have the United Federation of the North given you'd have the voluntary cooperation of the three biggest nations.

Either way, you've suddenly opened up another front of the war.