Ambush pretty OP right now

[Mitochondrium]

Ambush pretty OP right now

I don't know but can you lock an ambush?

I do not have a posibility to test it so please let me know.

Why the Dimetrium Bomb does not work on a ambushed cards ?

This is pretty OP for Scoiatel right now.

I think we all know this stupid Scoiatel deck where Vrihedd Dragoon boost the ambushed Toruviel or Ciaran (or now Vrihed Sapers) and with card advantage that they always have, it is really hard to counter, cos with Ambush they are just immune to everything apart from weather, and they will always stall till the 3rd round.

All we need is Dimetrium Bomb working on ambush so that at least 1 card can counter it.

I mean, ambushed or not, they are still units so come on...

Any other ideas how to play against Ambush?

 

[4RM3D]

It has always been difficult to directly counter Ambush. This patch changed little in that regard. Only the Sappers have changed, for better or worse.

Ambush is like playing mind games with your opponent. Did he drop Ciaran and it's he gonna pass or is it Toruviel and is he gonna push the round? Even if D-Bomb could target ambush cards, it would generally do very little to those cards. Another suggestion could be the possibility of locking an ambush card (which isn't possible now). But that might be too harsh and it would bring some technical difficulty with gold ambush cards.

In the end, even though ambush decks have dominated the top, they have never been too strong. The real issue lies with the card advantage ST can bring.

The way to counter ambush is not to overplay your hand in the first round. Ambush decks usually don't have that much strength. Once you have won the first round, you should be able to swarm the 2nd round. However, there isn't one solid tactic. After all, you have to get the feel of the situation. You have to beat the opponent's mind games.

 

[Siergain]

I think that silver card like Morenn but neutral and more useful against someting else than sciotael might help. Like lets say

Neutral
Corrine Tilly
Silver Siege 5 str: Choose one :Reveal 1 random card in opposing player's hand and top card in his deck OR lock and reveal chosen face-down ambush card
of course it is jut an quick idea but you can see the point.

 

[isnadtochiev]

It has always been difficult to directly counter Ambush. This patch changed little in that regard. Only the Sappers have changed, for better or worse.

Pretty sure its not about mind games, but specificly about dragoon interaction with ambush. Normally, d.bomb/mardrome/scroch can deal with heavily buffed unit. Thats not the case with dragoons and ambush. Considering the fact that dragoons are statted along fairly average 9 stat line (5+4), they are a normal buffing unit. Trouble starts when you realize that dragoon buffs cant be countered if used on an ambush. Part where you play around different ambushes is actually quite entertaining, even if it gets frustrating at times. However when you have to guess if its 26 power torouviel, thats where it gets ugly. Weather is pretty much the only punish for this strategy, but its monster variation is more or less a dead deck now. I still sometime encounter a unit-heavy Skellige weather deck. Not really sure if its here to stay thou. 11 base power weather immune bronze sounds a bit over the top even by Nilfgaard powercreep standards.

 

[arz0]

I don't know but can you lock an ambush?
I do not have a posibility to test it so please let me know.

No you can't

Why the Dimetrium Bomb does not work on a ambushed cards ?

Because it would be inconsistent with other effects.

I think we all know this stupid Scoiatel deck where Vrihedd Dragoon boost the ambushed Toruviel or Ciaran (or now Vrihed Sapers) and with card advantage that they always have, it is really hard to counter, cos with Ambush they are just immune to everything apart from weather, and they will always stall till the 3rd round.

That's not really the fault of unrevealed cards. The concept behind that is fine.
The problem here is the dragoons. Because that card is turning the ambush concept into a buff buff buff a unit, for a last round 'cant be countered*' bomb.

Weather doesn't affect them whilst unrevealed, only when they flip do they become susceptible. Small thing but an important distinction to make, because it is consistent.
currently no card can affect the state of a card whilst it is face down. they are either on the board face down, or not.

I mean, ambushed or not, they are still units so come on...

Well.. in truth they are not "units" until they are revealed. Whilst face down they are treated as a different card altogether.
That is why morenn does not care what type of unrevealed card she hits, it can be gold, silver, or bronze, any strength value, and she wont proc fireball traps.
She destroys an "unrevealed ambush card". she does not target units. because 'unrevealed' ambush cards are not units.

---

I can sympathise, because i don't particularly like how ambush is turning out.
The fault here as i said are the dragoons, not with the concept of unrevealed cards.
You put so much of your strength into these few cards, and that to me isn't how ambush is designed to work.

To me ambush is designed to play mind games, have unique effects,and put your opponent in an awkward position.
They need to complement and empower themselves.
Cards that do this well are schirru/ida, toruvial/cairan. Those cards to me really fit the archetype.
Dragoons do not fit it at all.

 

[Shuls02]

I can sympathise, because i don't particularly like how ambush is turning out.
The fault here as i said are the dragoons, not with the concept of unrevealed cards.
You put so much of your strength into these few cards, and that to me isn't how ambush is designed to work.

To me ambush is designed to play mind games, have unique effects,and put your opponent is a awkward potion.
They nned to complemt and empower themselves.
Cards that do this well are schirru/ida, toruvial/cairan. Those cards to me really fit the archetype.
Dragoons, not they do not fit it at all.

Maybe they could change it so you can't buff unrevealed ambush units so they won't be having 20+ str cards immune to everything but weather.

 

[arz0]

Maybe they could change it so you can't buff unrevealed ambush units so they won't be having 20+ str cards immune to everything but weather.

tbh, i have a general dislike of buffing units in hand. Triss: Butterfly spell being the exception. (I quite like that card)

In fact i made a whole suggestions thread (that nobody responded to ) about possible ambush cards.

Link

I'll draw your attention to this card i proposed.

Whenever an unrevealed ambush card on your side of the battlefield is revealed, and is non-gold, add +3 strength to the now revealed unit's strength.

this is not an unrevealed card, but just a simple unit.

These IMO are a better dragoon, the buff occurs on a reveal, and offer your opponent a fair chance to counter it. The unrevealed card is there for its unique effect, for mind games, and any of these particular units offer those cards buffs,

 

[4RM3D]

Pretty sure its not about mind games, but specificly about dragoon interaction with ambush.

That is part of the problem. On a more abstract level, an important concept of ambush is playing mind games.

Weather doesn't affect them whilst unrevealed, only when they flip do they become susceptible. Small thing but an important distinction to make, because it is consistent.
currently no card can affect the state of a card whilst it is face down. they are either on the board face down, or not.

It's only an important distinction because it's consistent? It doesn't matter anymore because weather no longer resets the unit's strength. Two patches ago, it did matter and weather did affect ambush cards. If you had a buffed ambush card and weather was played on that row, then Clear Sky and then the ambush card was revealed, the buff was gone.

 

[arz0]

It's only an important distinction because it's consistent? It doesn't matter anymore because weather no longer resets the unit's strength. Two patches ago, it did matter and weather did affect ambush cards. If you had a buffed ambush card and weather was played on that row, then Clear Sky and then the ambush card was revealed, the buff was gone.

It consistent because currently no card can affect the strength level of an unrevealed ambush card. d-bomb, warcry, yadda yadda.
It would be inconsistent if weather could set the strength to 1 whilst face down, when other special cards can't interact.

yeah... I know, for all intents and purposes it makes no difference in the end. however still important as far as the actual mechanics of the game is concerned.

 

[Mitochondrium]

Ambush is like playing mind games with your opponent.

I wish it was , because right now I know every single time what the enemy is going to do.

There is no mind game in that, in fact it is a non-mind play.

I always count how many times the Vrihedd has been played, and since all the first round units are usually bronze spam, their strength is not superior, so you can kind of expect how much strength you need to have.

The real problem is the last round when they play a boosted ambush on the table and laugh at you, because there is nothing you can do except for a weather card.

Mind game would mean: should I d-bomb / lock this ambush card or not?

But that is not the case.

And of course they have the 4 x scorch, Igni, Brouver, Nature's Gift, Aglais or Schiruu.

I mean come on, I can understand, if they can scortch you 1-2 times, but no, ofc they can do it 4x and guess what? You cant scorch them, because ambush! So fair

Ehhhhh.

 

[4RM3D]

There is no mind game in that, in fact it is a non-mind play.

Alright, point taken. However, it should be a mind game. Changing Vrihedd would solve these issues.

And of course they have the 4 x scorch, Igni, Brouver, Nature's Gift, Aglais or Schiruu.

What, only 4 times, you say? You haven't met the Scorch Family, have you?

 

[Mitochondrium]

What, only 4 times, you say? You haven't met the Scorch Family, have you?

Yea, I saw that...

I hope next patch they will balance the Scoiatel anyway

 

[ThreePi]

The "drawback" of Ambush cards is that they're supposed to be zero value if whatever it is triggers them doesn't happen. But in the case of Ciaran or Toruviel they're guaranteed to trigger when the round ends/oppo passes, and Schirru can be triggered by either side playing a special card so the ST player can basically guarantee a one-sided Scorch. So you can't really "play around" them if they're guaranteed to trigger.

 

[Mitochondrium]

but its monster variation is more or less a dead deck now

I think weather deck is still a good choice, I mean maybe not full weather immune units, but looking at scoiatel unit spam, you can easily disable lots of them with weather effects, even against Northern Realms it works nicely.

 

[isnadtochiev]

I think weather deck is still a good choice, I mean maybe not full weather immune units, but looking at scoiatel unit spam, you can easily disable lots of them with weather effects, even against Northern Realms it works nicely.

Ive been playing WH weather for last 4 patches i believe, since before the nilfgaard patch. ATM its about as viable as old axemen deck. Good for scrub stomping, has no buisness for games over 3k MMR, so its pretty much dead as dead can be. As allways - there are few good matchups, but you arent going far with it.

 

[wojtur]

I must say that they debuffed Scoiatel quite bit already. At least from begginiers standpoint - I mean for someone who doesn't have Toruviel, Claran or any similar card.
And they did that by for example breaking Elven Mercenary - Blue Mointain Commnado combo, with recent changes it would be OP combo for sure.
And there is one funny thing in that, even Eithne Leader card can't bounce Elven Mercenary, they removed all restriction except for the cards with "Relentness".

And in that part, the ambush play is probalby one of the most valid plays at the moment, take that, and beginniers Scoiatel will have probably nothing. Even Mahakam Defenders lose their Resillent trait after one round. That's quite a blow already.

 

[Mitochondrium]

Ive been playing WH weather for last 4 patches i believe, since before the nilfgaard patch. ATM its about as viable as old axemen deck. Good for scrub stomping, has no buisness for games over 3k MMR, so its pretty much dead as dead can be. As allways - there are few good matchups, but you arent going far with it.

People are complaining about Weather being weak, but IMO it is actually so much better right now, 1) because of the current meta and the way weather effects counter it. 2) because it is much more interesting than the weather deck, where you were just spamming the weather now you have to play it strategically. I personally like it very much.

And I have seen some semi-weather decks at 4000 - 4200 ranked where I am, and they are doing pretty well I have to say. There are not too many, that is true, but only because when people saw the patch notes, they went power gaming deck build.

 

[isnadtochiev]

People are complaining about Weather being weak, but IMO it is actually so much better right now, 1) because of the current meta and the way weather effects counter it. 2) because it is much more interesting than the weather deck, where you were just spamming the weather now you have to play it strategically. I personally like it very much.

And I have seen some semi-weather decks at 4000 - 4200 ranked where I am, and they are doing pretty well I have to say. There are not too many, that is true, but only because when people saw the patch notes, they went power gaming deck build.

1st - What is "semi-weather"?) If you mean wounding skellige - yeah, they run 2 frosts and i believe, 1 rain. Thats a completely different deck however, it works of the back of 11+ power weather immune bronzes, not weather.
2 - How do you know they are doing well, if you dont play one and only occasionaly see one played by someone else? They are so nice to send you their gwent tracker data?

Weather is long overdue for rework, true. Trouble is, monsters have only 2 playstyles, weather-control and consume. Consume is downright boring numbers game, and weather control is no longer viable. I have little doubt people testing it, i do however seriously doubt it working. Actually if you can make a weather control deck work - please share with us at your earliest coninience. In a process you might realize, that it isnt the weather nerf "people" complain about. but the fact that entire subfaction of monsters was designed around it. In attempts to counteract weather being an outageously powerfull mechanic power-creep cards were continiously introduced into the game. Not for monsters subfaction associated with said mechanic, ofcouse. So after weather got nerfed, we have a situation where you have no other synergies, and units whose statline has long been suprassed. Take a look at Impera Brigade, or Raging Berseker, a couple of really good core units currently played. Then at something like drowner or WH warrior, and you'll get the idea.

 

[rainwatr]

1st - What is "semi-weather"?) If you mean wounding skellige - yeah, they run 2 frosts and i believe, 1 rain. Thats a completely different deck however, it works of the back of 11+ power weather immune bronzes, not weather. 2 - How do you know they are doing well, if you dont play one and only occasionaly see one played by someone else? They are so nice to send you their gwent tracker data?
Weather is long overdue for rework, true. Trouble is, monsters have only 2 playstyles, weather-control and consume. Consume is downright boring numbers game, and weather control is no longer viable. I have little doubt people testing it, i do however seriously doubt it working. Actually if you can make a weather control deck work - please share with us at your earliest coninience. In a process you might realize, that it isnt the weather nerf "people" complain about. but the fact that entire subfaction of monsters was designed around it. In attempts to counteract weather being an outageously powerfull mechanic power-creep cards were continiously introduced into the game. Not for monsters subfaction associated with said mechanic, ofcouse. So after weather got nerfed, we have a situation where you have no other synergies, and units whose statline has long been suprassed. Take a look at Impera Brigade, or Raging Berseker, a couple of really good core units currently played. Then at something like drowner or WH warrior, and you'll get the idea.

Funny enough weather does still work at least on ladder, since most people think weather isn't good anymore, people stop running clear weathers. When you finally encounter the odd weather deck, you lose. I don't personally play weather monsters but my brother does and he said he was having good win rates (3/4) just because people are teching their decks to beat Nilfguard, so they get destroyed by Weather monsters forgetting that it's a thing.

Weather monsters cards may be weaker individually, but they are strong in combination w/ weather, the design of those cards take that in to consideration when assigning the strength value. The key is the order of how you play your cards. Monsters decks aren't as brainless as they once were and it does take more skill to play them well. Besides monsters have plenty of very strong cards, in fact the patch buffed cards like Nithril and Frost Giant; Old Speartip is till OP, Caretaker, Crones, Caranthir and even Woodland Spirit are still very good cards.

 

[isnadtochiev]

Weather monsters cards may be weaker individually, but they are strong in combination w/ weather, the design of those cards take that in to consideration when assigning the strength value. The key is the order of how you play your cards. Monsters decks aren't as brainless as they once were and it does take more skill to play them well. Besides monsters have plenty of very strong cards, in fact the patch buffed cards like Nithril and Frost Giant; Old Speartip is till OP, Caretaker, Crones, Caranthir and even Woodland Spirit are still very good cards.

And how exactly are monster units any stronger in conjuction with weather then berserkers or brokvar archers?) Frost giant into frost gives you a wopping 12 power. Since you not gonna stack frost upon frost, thats his average value. Raging berserker gets 11 in round 1, and hes ressurectable, and hes bronze, and hes synergy isnt limited to weather, any wounding will do. Please, do tell me, in wich order do i have to play monsters bronze card to get a weather synergy superior to that out of it? Wich kind of magical skill do i need to apply, wich brainstorm to perform? Monsters would have a really OP awesome control deck, but game doesnt allow 10 cards deck.