Bitcoin in Cyberpunk 2077?

[1Max1]

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings ...
But there's no such thing as an anonymous electronic data transfer.

Definitely there is PGP encryption, SHA-256, TryeCrypt, Blockchain, Ethereum, end-to-end encryption... Pick any, study what are CRYPTOGRAPHIC KEYPAIRS, and youll understand. Some day It took 4 days for me to understand how to email with PGP encryption. I used to think What a shitty thing! - when I needed this t work on my PC because of an opportunity to receive a good, interesting job and lots money. Then, whend I learned how to use PGP, I thinked What a wonderful thing a PGP encryption is!

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Or will the game be available for buying for Bitcoins?

Please vote here: https://www.gog.com/wishlist/site/the_ability_to_purchase_games_via_bitcoin

Humble Store used to accept Bitcoins, and you can buy Witcher games there, but for some weird reason they stopped doing it.

 

[cyberpunkforever]

maybe, cp2077 will be available to buy with bitcoin, in two or three years from now

as a currency in the game itself seems to be a little old, for in 2077 there will be new kinds of currency or new types of virtual money,

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

There will ALWAYS be a "need" for some sort of hard currency the powers that be can't trace.

Like cash? Or you mean barter exchange?

 

[SystemShock7]

My second name is Paranoid and my surname is Truthful. It's like those hilarious ID cards, passports, driver licenses things that you see all around the Internet.

Now seriously, it's not a paranoid thing. I don't know much about economy, but I tend to mistrust anything that presents itself in such arcane, obfuscating terms that have been proven time and time again not to stand for anything tangible or real, with mantras such as "the free market self-regulates itself"... if economic crises like the one we're all suffering right now, state intervention, public contracts, wartime production and profiteering, financial rescue of banks, the fuckery of trade agreements... is self regulation, I don't want anything to do with it. Like I say, it all just serves to obfuscate much simpler things: you can sit on your pile of gold, money or bitcoin... none of those would be getting you anything or anywhere if not for the trust that is put in those. In fact, you couldn't have got them in the first place without human labour. You can't eat them (though you can try), they don't make food grow, they don't generate energy, they can't entertain you (for long), they can't treat your diseases, they can't teach you skills... they can't make a society work, they don't make an economy, working people do. It's a mighty fine idea to create a system in which people can claim compensation for the services provided, and a currency based economy sure is more regulated and with greater potential than one based on bartering... but it's not perfect, it's not even that much better. It just creates an illusion that you're not renouncing to something you already had in order to exchange it for something you didn't have... but how is it different to renounce to some of the tomatoes you grow in your garden in exchange for something you can't or won't do from adding surplus work and surplus value in producing more tomatoes than the ones you need for your own consumption and survival, to sell them for money or to have your bosses do that, in hope that this money can later be exchanged for a supposedly equivalent value? Only currency obfuscating this simple fact.

One of the more entertaining posts I have read on these forums.

I'll tell you, I have no idea how many times I'd have to cut Elon Musk's grass to get a p85d in your retro-bartering system...
I think I'll just walk instead.

Oh, and about the usefulness of gold... chances are you wouldn't be posting anything on the internet, or have a computer for that matter, or even be streaming porn on that smart phone, if not for gold.

---------- Updated at 12:35 AM ----------

Bitcoin has no owners
it needs NO banks at all
Its a decentralized system, where anyone can participate
its a way of 100% anonymously transfer any amount of money all over the world with very low commissions and fees

That is not totally accurate.
There may not be bitcoin "banks", but you still need a "wallet", and these aren't exactly secure.. And the transfer is not 100% anonymous. Nothing is 100% anonymous.

Current fiat dollar system is based on a unexistent, printed money and many people already aknowledge that fact.

Er.. not exactly. It is not based on gold anymore, but it is based on 3 factors actually.

Finally, we all know about cryptography and key pairs. They have been around for a long, long time.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

That is not totally accurate.
There may not be bitcoin "banks", but you still need a "wallet", and these aren't exactly secure.. And the transfer is not 100% anonymous. Nothing is 100% anonymous.

Bitcoin indeed has anonymity issues. Its design can be improved to provide better anonymity and there are several proposals how to do it. Security however can be good, as long as strong encryption is used on the wallet and you take care of redundancy in case of data loss. In the end, it's as secure as you make it.

 

[Suhiira]

Like cash? Or you mean barter exchange?

Both work.
Barter is just less convent because both parties have to have something the other wants.

 

[Decatonkeil]

One of the more entertaining posts I have read on these forums.

I'll tell you, I have no idea how many times I'd have to cut Elon Musk's grass to get a p85d in your retro-bartering system...
I think I'll just walk instead.

Oh, and about the usefulness of gold... chances are you wouldn't be posting anything on the internet, or have a computer for that matter, or even be streaming porn on that smart phone, if not for gold.

---------- Updated at 12:35 AM ----------



That is not totally accurate.
There may not be bitcoin "banks", but you still need a "wallet", and these aren't exactly secure.. And the transfer is not 100% anonymous. Nothing is 100% anonymous.


Er.. not exactly. It is not based on gold anymore, but it is based on 3 factors actually.

Finally, we all know about cryptography and key pairs. They have been around for a long, long time.

Yes, gold is used in the making of electronics, but that's not the same gold that countries have/had to determine the worth of their currency... it can't be used to back an economy at the same time that it's used for its actual practical applications, and even for conductivity it's not more conductive than silver but it apparently resists corrosion better... still not as widely used as copper, and electronics is a use. And we don't use for example lithium which is also in electronics and has other uses or energetic resources to back our economies, maybe because they're more useful being, well, applied for transformative industries or for producing energy.

And as I said, a currency based economy is much more regulated, advanced and with more potential than a barter based one: as Suhiira said, barter only works when both parts of the transaction have what the other part wants... still, while it's much easier to spot why one of the bartering people may end up with the shorter stick just because the other person is better at bartering or for other reasons, in neither case can you give a really fair equivalency for both. We can try to get as close as possible to comparatively fair prices if we take into account production costs... but let's be honest, that doesn't come even close to explaining the price of products and services. Rarity of a material can make its poduction cost increase, but then we have offer and demand. We also have these things called monopolies. And this rarity is not only applied to materials or products to calculate their worth, it's also used sometimes to calculate the worth of a person's work: people with higher studies are bound to be rarer than people with no studies that can only opt for low-qualification jobs... so the latter tend to get paid less because there's a lot of people like those, not taking into account the hardships of their work compared to a lot of high-qualification jobs... we don't take into account the usefulness of the jobs: everyone needs housing, food, healthcare, a basic education a public infrastructure of energy, communications, transport... but those aren't the highest paid positions. It's nice to check our privileges as a western society, and be happy that we have a lot of those needs covered to a point that we can indulge in other commodities, such as entertainment, but with things like the movie industry moving so much money, with obscene salaries for renouned actors... one could look at our societies and think that this was the most important for us. Although maybe the element of propaganda that sometimes comes woven into our entertainment may explain it.

 

[Suhiira]

Definitely there is PGP encryption, SHA-256, TryeCrypt, Blockchain, Ethereum, end-to-end encryption... Pick any, study what are CRYPTOGRAPHIC KEYPAIRS, and youll understand. Some day It took 4 days for me to understand how to email with PGP encryption. I used to think What a shitty thing! - when I needed this t work on my PC because of an opportunity to receive a good, interesting job and lots money. Then, whend I learned how to use PGP, I thinked What a wonderful thing a PGP encryption is!

Encryption may do a wonderful job of securing the data contained in an electronic transfer, it does jack to conceal the transfer itself.
There are ways to make data transfers less vulnerable (not immune, less vulnerable) to detection, but they're beyond the means and abilities of 90% of folks.

As much as it may sound like I'm trying to argue with you I'm not, I'm just trying to point out the realities behind a situation most folks have little to no knowledge of. I have a personal hard-on for misinformation.

 

[SystemShock7]

Yes, gold is used in the making of electronics, but that's not the same gold that countries have/had to determine the worth of their currency... it can't be used to back an economy at the same time that it's used for its actual practical applications,

Well, no kidding, Sherlock. In any case, there are many uses for gold, which makes it valuable in on itself, which was the point of my reply, since you dismissed its value.

and even for conductivity it's not more conductive than silver but it apparently resists corrosion better... still not as widely used as copper, and electronics is a use. And we don't use for example lithium which is also in electronics and has other uses or energetic resources to back our economies, maybe because they're more useful being, well, applied for transformative industries or for producing energy.

No, maybe because lithium is ~ $40.00 a pound, easier to mine, and less rare than gold, which is what, $1000.00 per ounce?

And as I said, a currency based economy is much more regulated, advanced and with more potential than a barter based one: as Suhiira said, barter only works when both parts of the transaction have what the other part wants... still, while it's much easier to spot why one of the bartering people may end up with the shorter stick just because the other person is better at bartering or for other reasons, in neither case can you give a really fair equivalency for both. We can try to get as close as possible to comparatively fair prices if we take into account production costs... but let's be honest, that doesn't come even close to explaining the price of products and services. Rarity of a material can make its poduction cost increase, but then we have offer and demand. We also have these things called monopolies. And this rarity is not only applied to materials or products to calculate their worth, it's also used sometimes to calculate the worth of a person's work: people with higher studies are bound to be rarer than people with no studies that can only opt for low-qualification jobs... so the latter tend to get paid less because there's a lot of people like those, not taking into account the hardships of their work compared to a lot of high-qualification jobs... we don't take into account the usefulness of the jobs: everyone needs housing, food, healthcare, a basic education a public infrastructure of energy, communications, transport... but those aren't the highest paid positions. It's nice to check our privileges as a western society, and be happy that we have a lot of those needs covered to a point that we can indulge in other commodities

I take it you are a Communist (or at least a Marxist), and/or maybe have a low-wage job that requires a lot of raw/unskilled manual labor.
In a free market society, we do take account of the usefulness of jobs, but that is just part of the equation. A janitor who cleans an office vis a vis a heart surgeon, they both do manual labor, and both are useful... and the janitor will most likely than not spend many more hours physically exerting him/herself cleaning, but I can give anyone off the street a vacuum cleaner and a feather duster, and that person will keep that office relatively clean; I cannot give just anyone off the street a scalpel and ask them to perform triple bypass surgery. If I don't want to pay someone to clean my house, I don't have to. I can clean it myself. If I need triple bypass surgery, I can't do it myself.

Also, you are wrong about your assertion that the fields you listed do not include high paying jobs, but just like janitors, the orderly is not going to make as much as the doctor.

such as entertainment, but with things like the movie industry moving so much money, with obscene salaries for renouned actors... one could look at our societies and think that this was the most important for us. Although maybe the element of propaganda that sometimes comes woven into our entertainment may explain it.

But that is exactly how supply and demand work in a free market, isn't it? Renown actors make millions per movie because very few people can do what the do and millions of people are willing to pay to see those actors do what they do in a single movie. Same with athletes, very few people can play like they can and millions of people pay money to see them play, week after week. It has nothing to do with propaganda... Unlike, say, teachers: if you go from pre-school through 4 years of college, you will have how many teachers? No single teacher will give you all the education you need. (That said, I do believe teachers need to be better paid).

 

[Decatonkeil]

Well, no kidding, Sherlock. In any case, there are many uses for gold, which makes it valuable in on itself, which was the point of my reply, since you dismissed its value.

Yes, but we were talking about how they make an economy as opposed to, well, things that actually create a value, like the work of people. And the only uses that I can find are electronics, where there isn't that much gold, and... jewellery, olympic medals... tacky gold teeth... eh...

I take it you are a Communist (or at least a Marxist), and/or maybe have a low-wage job that requires a lot of raw/unskilled manual labor.

That's a lot of assuming. I never talked about who the means of production should belong to, but it is as much of a religious belief that they should be public than that they should be private, believing that either of them is intrinsically better or... well, believing that there is such a thing as

In a free market society,

Well, that. And so is my belief that what I propose would make for a fairer society and world, and that that somehow ties into universal ethics, and that universal ethics while being a human construct and not a natural thing are good and the way to go. Also, while I do take the parts of Marxism that I like, I prefer this label called Alterworldism, which may sound like a cop out label, but... I kinda like it.

we do take account of the usefulness of jobs, but that is just part of the equation. A janitor who cleans an office vis a vis a heart surgeon, they both do manual labor, and both are useful... and the janitor will most likely than not spend many more hours physically exerting him/herself cleaning, but I can give anyone off the street a vacuum cleaner and a feather duster, and that person will keep that office relatively clean; I cannot give just anyone off the street a scalpel and ask them to perform triple bypass surgery. If I don't want to pay someone to clean my house, I don't have to. I can clean it myself. If I need triple bypass surgery, I can't do it myself.

Well of course, all of that is very sensible and very true... but the thing is you chose two jobs or taks that fit your narrative very well, but if we take them out of your narrative: 1) The surgeon can't give him/herself triple bypass surgery, and it's highly unlikely that they will also be able to build their own houses, make their own electrical installation, cook decently, homeschool their own children, harvest crops, operate heavy machinery... 2) Surgeons are deemed more useful by society because they might as well save the lives of those janitors you were talking about, 3) You can bet your ass surgeons were paid better than janitors in any communist country, people were not paid the same and they could buy things, 4) We would have to take into account a lot of other factors like how many highly-qualified workers could emerge from families like the ones that nowadays produce only non-qualified ones if we only had better access to education, how easy or difficult would it be for those privileged minds to achieve their full potential were it not because they can delegate other tasks on other people around them, we would have to take into account contributive pension plans and the role that these non-qualified masses play here, etc.

To summarize what I was trying to convey: gold an economy does not make, "trust" an economy does not make. The gold reserves of a country nowadays will more likely than not remain the same. The gold standard isn't even used anymore. Gold does not change, that doesn't reflect what an economy is. "Trust" does fluctuate, but not according to productivity or anything tangible.

 

[SystemShock7]

[Sard Edit: A little TOO edgy, here, Shock. Less denigrating comments like "using Excite as your search engine?" and more like , "Well, here's why I think that doesn't work."

Being snarky is fun and fine if both you and your discussion partner "know" each other, ( witness 227 and myself, for example), but given that Dec wasn't really replying in kind, I'm gonna chop this whole section. Sherlock.

Every civil argument is a two person team exercise, not a fight-to-victory ego-show.

I give you a Pony of Reminder:]

So, going back to the OP and bitcoin...

Personally, I don't think bitcoin is going to exist for long, probably not make it to 2077. And even if it does, I think it is probably going to stay the fringe bartering tool it is today, for a number of reasons.

First, it isn't any more convenient that current currencies. My paycheck is transferred electronically to my bank account. I can pay just about everywhere with a credit card, which I pay for electronically as well. More and more, I can use my phone instead of a credit card to pay for goods and services. I can even use PayPal in places like supermarkets, gas stations, hardware stores, etc... which is linked electronically to my credit card, which is linked electronically to my bank. So my dollars are already electronic. The last time I had a bill in my wallet was 3 months ago. And I know it was 3 months ago because I know exactly why I had to withdraw money from the ATM. Prior to that, I don't think I've had a dollar bill in my wallet the entirety of 2015.

Second, bitcoin is not secure/secured. You lose your bitcoins, they are gone. By using banks, credit cards, my currency has a much higher level of protection. At least in the US, anything that's deposited in a bank is protected by the Federal Reserve up to $100,000, which is $100,000 more than bitcoin affords me in protection. Someone uses my credit card fraudulently, I don't have to pay for the charges, or even gets shut down before they are able to charge anything.

Third, there isn't anything close to a number of bitcoins that could support global trading. Sure you can make some consumer purchases, but considering that bitcoin is hardwired at a cap of 21,000,000 with a current circulation of around 15,000,000 ( as far as I know), and since bitcoins are generated rather slowly, that makes bitcoin practically useless for any sort of significant non-consumer transaction. And while there have been discussions about unlocking that cap, even that will not allow bitcoin to catch up to everyday currencies and their electronic availability.

Which leaves bitcoin as a) a niche bartering tool and b) the choice of people who want to hide their transactions as much as possible. And b is slowly, but surely, becoming less and less possible.

 

[1Max1]

Wow guys so many lines..

Why dont just read a book called Digital Gold?

 

[Suhiira]

Wow guys so many lines..

Why dont just read a book called Digital Gold?

Because no one likes to have a pet concept doused in the cold water of reality?

 

[Sardukhar]

Because no one likes to have a pet concept doused in the cold water of reality?

Oh, you,

More like, because that's a LOT of effort. Read a book, psshhh. Google has been invented, you can stop all that 1800s style stuff now.

Digital knowledge, digital currencies, soon digital people! The Future Is Nearly Here!

 

[1Max1]

Dont be so harsh, Sardukhar. Its 80 lvl Fremen warrior tells you.

In fact, reading such a book helps to understand not the nature of Bitcoin, but THE CORE NATURE OF MONEY.

What is money? How do you know something is money? Its not that the government guarantees or they look awesome and everyone likes the portrait of some stupid king or writer on the bills...

The real money have some properties, like Gold, and only then they REAL.

1. Its a limited asset.
2. Hard to make fake ones
3. Hard to produсe (or mine)
4. Everyone loves it

Lets seee... Hmm! Looks like we have problem.

1. Dollar - No, Bitcoin - Yes (because we only can create 21 mln bitcoins, the last bitcoins will be created in 2140 year, and the value cant be changed by some shitty queen or stupid prime-minister Cameron, who wants to restrict cryptography in England because it wont let him spy on everyone)
2. Dollar - No. Bitcoin - Yes (Impossible to copy and paste bitcoins, unlike dollars)
3. Dollar - No. Bitcoin - Yes (because you cant mine bitcoins like a crazy maniac - the system is very strict and limited, you have to have proper equipment, etc)
4. Dollar - Yes. Bitcoin - Not exacly everyone... And THAT is the only problem now. Because software itself is open source, secured with cryptography and works as hell.

So, where is the Money, folks? Definitely not in your pockets! Because to be valuable, any thing must be rare, limited, and without possibility to falsify it. It can be money, information, gold, virtual assets (like swords in online games) and so on.

---------- Updated at 09:24 PM ----------

Pet concept - is when in a certain country people are agreed with killing a president who wanted to stop the dollar printing, and after some time - killing his brother, who also wanted the best for America (oops). And pet concept, I would say WET IDEA, is a dollar printed by FED (a bunch of PRIVATE banks) guaranteed by nothing and worldwide accepted. Only because every idiot on this planet dreams of living the shitty crap called The American Dream.

Hey! Wake up! China, Russia, EU, Britain, USA and some arabic countries are modern Empires. They will destroy each other somehow, if we wont be doing something to improve our lives.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Rarity is not what makes something valuable, it's desirability is what makes it valuable, which is influenced by its rarity.

Money is not really a thing, it is a concept, a set value attributed to a given amount of a precious metal. Paper money is even less, it is a promissory note to pay the bearer a given amount of coinage. Digital currency is just an intangible version of a promissory note.

The nature of Money and currency is so much more complicated than anything anyone, (including myself,) has posted on here.

The value of bitcoins is set in the same manner as stocks and shares, which is less stable than currency.

 

[Suhiira]

The primary thing that makes anything a currency is it's level of acceptance.

Over the course of history lots of interesting things have been used as currency by various groups. As long as the vast majority of that group accepts that the object can be used to trade for items of value it's currency.

As to "value" that's actually a situational concept.

During "normal" times you trade food for gold, during a famine you trade gold for food.
Value by it's very nature is, and always will be, a variable never a constant.

 

[1Max1]

If thousands of world famous and most well appreciated economists say that money can be money only if they have properties I described, and you guys keep talking of ACCEPTANCE ACCEPTANCE ACCEPTANCE... Whom should average person trust?

I repeat. ACCEPTANCE - is a result of the fact that everyone want to live the American Dream, and only after that - have dollars, spend dollars, earn dollars and so on. If I will be a new Goldman Sachs or Bank of America CEO, I would print out new dollars with my portrait on them, and also with a picture of my DICK, and guess what? All the planet will be using this crap. I can even add "In Satan we trust", "Tits or FTFO" or any other words on them, and everyone will still ACCEPT it. So acceptance mean nothing, because if Ill print my own money right now here in Ukraine, no one will be using them because Im not Ben Bernanke or Rockfeller or Obama or Putin etc. Acceptance is a result of AUTHORITY.

And.. well, ok. If all those shitty western banksters were "good guys", then OK, maybe it would be good to accept their money. If this AUTHORITY would be earned by many good deeds, OK. But how did American Banking System earnes such an authority? By telling everyone this:

"If you wont like dollar, we will certainly find a way to bomb you! So.. how about dollars?"

BAD AUTHORITY, based on the fear of death. Libya, Russia, China, all other formal "enemies of democracy" tried to get rid of dollars. Even Kennedy, their own President, tried to do so. What happened to Kennedy? What happened to Gaddafi? What is now happening with chinese oil tankers, when China government tries to do something USA dont like? You people should be seeing more in Vietnam, Grenada, Libya, Sirya, and even now, here in Ukraine, this awesome war... Why? I can tell you why - because our former president, whom I also hate as much as Putin, Obanna, Merkel and other shitty politics, refused to cooperate with global dollar system and now Russia and USA BOTH are destroying our country. Our gold were sold, our people are dying, our reputation suck, our economics is in deep ass and depends on shitty dollar more and more with unnecessary, robbery credits from IMF.

Just think of the world where governments dont have control over money, where Obama cant spend american taxpayers money on nuclear weapons, rifles with uranium bullets (Iraq) and so on. American soldiers who used uranium bullets in Iraq are now also dying of cancer in hospitals. Obama smiles, thats all. Is that a true democracy? Dont be a silly kids.

If all the world would use DECENTRALIZED SOFT, not only Torrents, but also Blockchain, on which Bitcoin is based, all that wars woould have been prevented. And oil wars too. Anywhere. Forever.

So I am fored to use dollars because if I wont they will bomb me. Bad, very bad kind of authority. In general, Bitcoin has much more realistic and trustful system, its AUTHORITY is not based on oil wars and armies. I choose Bitcoin (or at least my local currency, which is a fake currency too because they PRINT, JUST PRINT it.

Bitcoin cant be printed forever, making all its holders poor EVERY DAY. Its price is volatile, but NOONE controls it. Good kind of authority. Very good.

And still - how about the fact that, if acceptance is the main sign of money, why cant you buy something in England with polish zlotyi or ukrainian hryvnia?other fiat They are very well aceepted, but since you leave your prison area, oh uh, sorry, your native country, YOU CANT BUY ANYTHING WITH THOSE PAPERS. Acceptance is an illusion. Authority is a main reason. And dollar have very bad problems with being a good currency. And many oher fiat papers too.

Dont trust me - look Youtube Andreas Antonopoulos vids. Look Barry Silbert interviews. Look at the map of BITCOIN ACCEPTANCE IN POLAND. Did you knew that Poland is the most Cryptocurrency developing country in Europe? I guess not. Use google and REMEMBER I LOVE YOU. Even our shitty "best bank" in Ukraine Privat is now accepts bitcoins. I dont think shitty ukrainian bankers would bet on a thing that is as bad as you guys think.

 

[227]

"If you wont like dollar, we will certainly find a way to bomb you! So.. how about dollars?"

As someone from the US, I can confirm that this most definitely happened. I was there for that meeting. The real craziness started ten minutes later, though, when Putin and Obama started doing shots and got into a drunken arm wrestling match. Good times. A friendly warning, though: you're starting to drift into real-world politics, which is against the forum rules. You might want to be a little more careful in the future lest your posts start turning into pony gifs.

And just because I'm feeling a little trollish: who pays for infrastructure in a hypothetical future where bitcoin is universal? We're presumably not paying taxes in this scenario (I'm assuming based on the "government not spending taxpayer money on nuclear weapons" bit of your post), so who pays the cops? Who fixes the roads? I can't see how this would be remotely sustainable.