CDPR claims 100% accuracy in identifying pirates, demands money from thousands

[xx55xx]

human race is so selfish that i dont see the point here. none of us will get the letter and none of us suffer with drm. why try so hard to defend pirates and blame cdpr? yeah innocent people can get a letter and innocent people die in africa and none of us give a shit. at least in this case inocense can be prove. sorry for my english

Yes, there are worse things happening in the world (Syria comes to mind), but it is all a matter of principle. CDP shouldn't have to do this. They should be focusing on their core business - making video games, not extortion. Piracy is bad. Pirates should be punished, if that is even possible without targeting innocent people in the process and asking for "damages" that is many times the value of "lost" revenue.

And if the growth of Steam in Russia (a country infamous for software piracy) is any indication, most pirates are willing to pay if getting a game legally is more convenient than going through the torrents. You can turn most pirates into paying customers, if you can build a model of commerce that appeals to a customer's craving for convenience.

 

[Dona.794]

And yeah, I was assuming they were going to branch out to other countries, but if this is exclusive to Germany then that adds a whole new dimension to this.

The first sentence in the article:

"CD Projekt RED have sent legal notices demanding money from thousands of alleged pirates in Germany, with a threat of court action for anyone refusing to pay."

Also, there should be some kind of a rule against using alpha trailer screenshots in TW2 articles. Creepy Geralt D:

 

[gregski]

I don't know if that's a 100% correct info, but it sheds some new light: http://beefjack.com/news/the-witcher-2-pirates-allegedly-targeted-by-cd-projekt/

Quote:

As well as The Witcher 2, the law firm tasked with contacting the alleged pirates, Rachterberg Recht, appears to be working on similar procedure for titles such as Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Batman: Arkham Asylum and Just Cause 2.

Yeah, CDP are surely the bad-boyz of the industry.

 

[chlong7]

And you can expect the people getting a 900 euro fine never to buy a CDPR game again. Not good marketing.

Technically, they didn't buy anything in the first place, so I doubt that CDPR is worried about losing them as customers.

 

[227]

"CD Projekt RED have sent legal notices demanding money from thousands of alleged pirates in Germany, with a threat of court action for anyone refusing to pay."

I knew that we had confirmation that this was happening in Germany, but I didn't take that to mean that it was limited to Germany. Is there anything to confirm that they have no intentions of branching out to other countries? It'd look pretty bad either way, honestly... either they're taking on the world, or just picking on Germany because it's apparently easier for them. Both sound pretty bad.

 

[xx55xx]

I don't know if that's a 100% correct info, but it sheds some new light: http://beefjack.com/news/the-witcher-2-pirates-allegedly-targeted-by-cd-projekt/

Quote:

As well as The Witcher 2, the law firm tasked with contacting the alleged pirates, Rachterberg Recht, appears to be working on similar procedure for titles such as Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Batman: Arkham Asylum and Just Cause 2.

Yeah, CDP are surely the bad-boyz of the industry.

Well, it appears to be standard procedure in Germany, because the framework of the law allows for this sort of stuff. I cannot fault CDP for looking at the possibility of making some extra money through extortion, but it is still immoral.

 

[gregski]

Well, it appears to be standard procedure in Germany, because the framework of the law allows for this sort of stuff. I cannot fault CDP for looking at the possibility of making some extra money through extortion, but it is still immoral.

Call it whatever you want: extortion, blackmail, easy cash, whatever.

And I will call it (again) sending out a message: please respect our work as much as we respect you as our customer.

 

[Randomdrowner2015]

I think this is a worrying development.

Would it not be nicer if they sent letters to the folks they suspect having downloaded their game and ask them nicely to, if they actually have done the act and is playing their game, do right for themselves and send them the correct sum of money. No extortion or whatever. Just pointing out the fact that they need money from sales to continue, that they dont think its fair and that they and there is a chance to amend that.

I support CDPR with my money because I want to support a skilled team of developers making good games. I want them to continue deliver high quality stuff. ..Not because I support the concept of IP (which I don't)

 

[Dona.794]

I knew that we had confirmation that this was happening in Germany, but I didn't take that to mean that it was limited to Germany. Is there anything to confirm that they have no intentions of branching out to other countries? It'd look pretty bad either way, honestly... either they're taking on the world, or just picking on Germany because it's apparently easier for them. Both sound pretty bad.

Well, no articles mentioned other countries and if the other article is true, a German company is doing the job. AFAIK Germany is pretty notorious for tracking down pirates. I don't live there, so I'd like to hear what those who do have to say about it.

 

[mrowakus]

I don't know if that's a 100% correct info, but it sheds some new light: http://beefjack.com/news/the-witcher-2-pirates-allegedly-targeted-by-cd-projekt/

Quote:

As well as The Witcher 2, the law firm tasked with contacting the alleged pirates, Rachterberg Recht, appears to be working on similar procedure for titles such as Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Batman: Arkham Asylum and Just Cause 2.

Yeah, CDP are surely the bad-boyz of the industry.

Yeah, I told earlier - this practice was in the industry for some time. It's curious how it only now comes to people's attention.

You seem to believe that you can turn pirates to legal customers.

Yes, I did that with a few of my friends. Now that they are affluent enough they can pay for their entertainment.

But, as The Witcher 2 example shows, it's not going to be the case. Pirates whine about DRM - CDP removes DRM - the game gets pirated anyway. And now it's "I'm just pirating the game because there is no demo" talk. The Witcher 3 releases a demo and is DRM free - it's gonna be something else. These people are notorious and nothing will change them.

Actually it's not pirates that were whining about DRM. It was me and other legitimate customers. If I but the game I count that I will be able to play it anytime I want, with no one blatantly spying on me.

Pirates don't care much about DRM - they have cracks and stuff. As my experience with Assassin's Creed 2 DRM (original I bought) shows in comparison with that of my friend's (thief pirate), they have it easier than paying customers. And that was the point of not implementing DRM - removing the hassle for actual customers, not appealing to pirates. If TW2 had DRM (GoG version didn't), I wouldn't have bothered with TW2.

What could change though is those people that are not-so-hardcore pirates, but also not-so-emotional about this whole issue. It could make them think before they act and save themselves some stress by just buying the damn game next time. Or skipping it, yeah, but at least that will be fair.

And for people not buying the game because of this...I don't know if I am more sorry for CDP losing some money or for those people to act in such way, which to me is just childish. I mean, CDP is not killing whales or leaking oil to the Mexican Bay, FFS. Just looking for an agreement instead of suing people day one.

It's an old argument... The company is losing money because of pirates. But how exactly does it happen - the losing money bit, I mean? Let's assume the following:

0 - unwillingness to buy game
1 - willingness to buy game

1 x 1.2 million people x $50 = $60 million (profit)
(0 x XXX [all the people in the world] x $50) + (0 x 4.5 million people x $50) = $0 (loss?)

The question is: How do we know if any of those 4.5 (that figure was pulled out of... something dark I reckon) million people who pirated the game would buy the product? If there was no option to pirate the game, I mean? Surely it's not 4.5 million x $50 loses we are talking about here, then.

You see, in reality it's not binary choice. In fact what you have is this:

0a - just don't buy the game
0b - pirate the game
1 - buy the game

If we assumed that out of the sudden piracy (option 0b) no longer existed, could you say that all of that 4.5 million the vast majority would go with option 1? Hardly - it would turn to default value - option 0a - just because it's cheaper. You don't get the money or... you don't get the money. Where's loss here?

Now what CDP should be doing (and did with free DLC, no-DRM policy, good technical support) is shifting those from option 0b to option 1. I know a few hardened pirates who actually were touched enough by their policy that they forked the money and purchased the game.

What happens in this campaign is the reverse of what should be done - with negative atmosphere and rather questionable methods you can count that people start shifting back - what's worse, this time not from option 0b to 0a (no loss here). We have actually legitimate customers (option 1) declaring they won't purchase next release (shift to scenario 0a). That's what I call a loss.

Again I don't support piracy in any way, shape or form, but I find the tactic CDPRed, and other companies employed to be unbelieveably short-sighted.

 

[username_3236168]

Yeah, I told earlier - this practice was in the industry for some time. It's curious how it only now comes to people's attention.



Yes, I did that with a few of my friends. Now that they are affluent enough they can pay for their entertainment.



Actually it's not pirates that were whining about DRM. It was me and other legitimate customers. If I but the game I count that I will be able to play it anytime I want, with no one blatantly spying on me.

Pirates don't care much about DRM - they have cracks and stuff. As my experience with Assassin's Creed 2 DRM (original I bought) shows in comparison with that of my friend's (thief pirate), they have it easier than paying customers. And that was the point of not implementing DRM - removing the hassle for actual customers, not appealing to pirates. If TW2 had DRM (GoG version didn't), I wouldn't have bothered with TW2.



It's an old argument... The company is losing money because of pirates. But how exactly does it happen - the losing money bit, I mean? Let's assume the following:

0 - unwillingness to buy game
1 - willingness to buy game

1 x 1.2 million people x $50 = $60 million (profit)
(0 x XXX [all the people in the world] x $50) + (0 x 4.5 million people x $50) = $0 (loss?)

The question is: How do we know if any of those 4.5 (that figure was pulled out of... something dark I reckon) million people who pirated the game would buy the product? If there was no option to pirate the game, I mean? Surely it's not 4.5 million x $50 loses we are talking about here, then.

You see, in reality it's not binary choice. In fact what you have is this:

0a - just don't buy the game
0b - pirate the game
1 - buy the game

If we assumed that out of the sudden piracy (option 0b) no longer existed, could you say that all of that 4.5 million the vast majority would go with option 1? Hardly - it would turn to default value - option 0a - just because it's cheaper. You don't get the money or... you don't get the money. Where's loss here?

Now what CDP should be doing (and did with free DLC, no-DRM policy, good technical support) is shifting those from option 0b to option 1. I know a few hardened pirates who actually were touched enough by their policy that they forked the money and purchased the game.

What happens in this campaign is the reverse of what should be done - with negative atmosphere and rather questionable methods you can count that people start shifting back - what's worse, this time not from option 0b to 0a (no loss here). We have actually legitimate customers (option 1) declaring they won't purchase next release (shift to scenario 0a). That's what I call a loss.

Again I don't support piracy in any way, shape or form, but I find the tactic CDPRed, and other companies employed to be unbelieveably short-sighted.

This is still a grey area, how can you lose money from someone who was never gonna buy the game to begin with. But you have people and I know A LOT of them who pirate a game finish it and LOVE it but don't buy it because "what's the point? I already finished the game!"

If there were no means of piracy we all know Witcher 2 would have sold much more!!!

 

[mrowakus]

If there were no means of piracy we all know Witcher 2 would have sold much more!!!

I am not so sure. TW2 is a very good game, indeed - but that's not enough for some people to warrant spending $50, without knowing first how it plays.

Yes CDP - a major Demo before release would have solved at least a fraction of your problem with pirates.

 

[gregski]

Actually it's not pirates that were whining about DRM. It was me and other legitimate customers. If I but the game I count that I will be able to play it anytime I want, with no one blatantly spying on me.

Pirates don't care much about DRM - they have cracks and stuff. As my experience with Assassin's Creed 2 DRM (original I bought) shows in comparison with that of my friend's (thief pirate), they have it easier than paying customers. And that was the point of not implementing DRM - removing the hassle for actual customers, not appealing to pirates. If TW2 had DRM (GoG version didn't), I wouldn't have bothered with TW2.

What I meant was that pirates used to claim that they pirate games because of their anti-DRM and anti-corporate attitude. And then those things are out of the way - they don't stop.

You see, in reality it's not binary choice. In fact what you have is this:

0a - just don't buy the game
0b - pirate the game
1 - buy the game

If we assumed that out of the sudden piracy (option 0b) no longer existed, could you say that all of that 4.5 million the vast majority would go with option 1? Hardly - it would turn to default value - option 0a - just because it's cheaper. You don't get the money or... you don't get the money. Where's loss here?

That's some twisted and manipulative logic. No, if there was only option 1 and 0a more people would actually buy the game - because they would still want it. And they would just suck it up and spend the damn money, as lots of people pirating games can easily afford expensive rigs, even more than 1. Assuming that people pirate just because it's cheaper is naive and short-sighted - but yeah, you just wanted to prove your point, I get it.

Now what CDP should be doing (and did with free DLC, no-DRM policy, good technical support) is shifting those from option 0b to option 1. I know a few hardened pirates who actually were touched enough by their policy that they forked the money and purchased the game.

See, so if they weren't able to pirate the game, what would they do? They seem to actually have some money to spend...

What happens in this campaign is the reverse of what should be done - with negative atmosphere and rather questionable methods you can count that people start shifting back - what's worse, this time not from option 0b to 0a (no loss here). We have actually legitimate customers (option 1) declaring they won't purchase next release (shift to scenario 0a). That's what I call a loss.

It can have negative atmosphere mostly to those with guilty conscience. This practice is the common practice in any business - if I happen to miss my cell phone bill due date, I am getting a collection notice from my operator with additional fee for every day I was late. If I was still late they would send me another one where they would warn me that if I don't pay they will report me as a bad debtor. They wouldn't do that right away, cause they seek agreement and count that I will be willing to pay what I owe them without going to court or reporting to other authorities (see the similarity?). And you know what? I am legitimate and economicaly aware customer, so I don't feel offended or blackmailed. I feel stupid for being late, pay the damn bill with added amount and next time watch the due dates.

 

[Kaldurenik]

The game would not sell more if there was no piracy. Why? Because studies show that pirates spend more money then the average person on entertainment. Also they tend to download everything they would not suddenly run out and spend 60000$ / Year. I mean you have to be crazy to think that. Kinda like the Crysis devs "lol lol pirates evil doods if it was not for pirates the game would sell for 10million+ EVIL PIRATES... You just watch us sell COD numbers when we go on consoles..."
yeah that worked out for them...

Make a good game, give good support. Dont worry about the pirates as you have no way to be 100% sure. Also the numbers 4.5million are made with math that is WRONG and even then there is alot of "maybe" in it.

 

[songlian]

This leaves a bad taste, and comes across as vindictive.

That's all.

 

[Garrison72]

Even if the estimate of pirated copies is only half right, I wonder what CDPR would do with all the extra cash? Probably plan financial world domination, the very undermining of global financial institutions. And when it was all done and the rest of us start cannibalizing each other through poverty and starvation, somewhere atop a 100 story tower in Warsaw, greedy execs cackle maniacally as they bathe in tubs of sweet, sweet money.

Or maybe they'd just give us even more great content

 

[eskiMoe]

An update:

http://kotaku.com/5868672/witcher-devs-playing-judge-jury--executioner-with-alleged-pirates

"Website TorrentFreak reported that through law firms the Polish developer sent "thousands" of letters to BitTorrent users, each asking for €911.80 in compensation for the accused having obtained a copy of the game without paying.

Okay CDPR, if this is true it's too much. It's not cool.

It's one helluva inflation if you demand $1100 from a $50 game. I don't like pirates but this is just absurd.

 

[Garrison72]

...That is too much. I wouldn't ask for more than say triple the price of the game. Dammit CDPR, just when I was coming to your defense. The punishment must match the crime.

 

[Dona.794]

Okay CDPR, if this is true it's too much. It's not cool.

It's one helluva inflation if you demand $1100 from a $50 game. I don't like pirates but this is just absurd.

Movie companies are asking for a lot more if they catch you pirating their movies. (that's 3-10 euros per ticket and two hours of entertainment) I have mixed feelings about this whole thing, but I don't think 900 euros is an unreasonable fine. :/

 

[mrowakus]

...That is too much. I wouldn't ask for more than say triple the price of the game. Dammit CDPR, just when I was coming to your defense. The punishment must match the crime.

Consider this... It's not CDP Red directly who are sending those letter. It's a law leech company who is used to charging attrocious amount of moneyz. I bet at least half of the fine is their payment.

I hate those people. What they do is cornering you, and abusing law:

* You cannot do much once you are fined, even if unjustified. Often innocent people pay the fine just to avoid the court hassle, and bad reputation. That's why this practice is called law trolling.
* The price point is mostly whatever THE LAWYER thinks is reasonable, there's no court that decided how much you have to pay.
* If you insist on going to court, they will try to get you in front of one that is known to rule in their favor (i.e. usually one with bad understanding about technical formalities like how good a proof ip addresses actually are, or what you have downloaded and re-uploaded, etc.)

Frankly, initially I was in favour of the idea - $150, $250 fine would be a good and reasonable deterrent. $1000 is just being an ar**.