Cyberpunk 2077: The Perfect RPG

[kofeiiniturpa]

Stats-based-gameplay do not equal RPG.

Nor does "storybased" gameplay.

There are games with "stats" that are not RPG's, and there are games with branching stories that are not RPG's.

It's the interplay between stats based gameplay and interactive storytelling that makes the difference.

The "story" doesn't need to be big and spectacular, it only needs to happen according to the player and his character. But the stats are what make the G in the RPG. If their direction and design is lousy (like it usually is these days), you have a lousy RPG in your hands no matter how good the story is. The game may shine like burning phosphore with it's story, but it doesn't shine as an RPG.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

I don't know, I just can't buy "RPG =/= role playing game".

Horizon zero dawn is just an action game with levels and few stats .as far as I'm concerned
P.S. this conversation sounds like half full and half empty glass, if you use this metaphor in english.

 

[lelxrv]

Babymetal is real metal.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Babymetal is real metal.

As the name says, it's metal for babies.

 

[metalmaniac21]

Babymetal is real metal.

At least they're honest.
At least they didn't produce Grand Declaration of War.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

Some say that Justin bieber is an artist.

 

[metalmaniac21]

Some say that Justin bieber is an artist.

Well, if he does the songwritting then technically he is. That doesn't mean he's good.

 

[Rawls]

It's the interplay between stats based gameplay and interactive storytelling that makes the difference.

I can kind of get behind he idea that you have to have both. Most of the time it is true. I still think there are some games without stats based gameplay where I feel like I'm playing a game centered on role playing. So I'm not 100% sold on the idea that game = stats. But I can definitely see the logic behind it, and think it's a reasonable position to take.

The original reason for this particular point of discussion starting, is because Anthem dev essentially said "our game has stats and gear that you level up, therefore it's an RPG" My original point was that stats alone do not make an RPG. So no Anthem dev, you are incorrect.

If you at least have the branching story C&C part in there as an essential element, I won't quibble with you too much.

 

[metalmaniac21]

If you at least have the branching story C&C part in there as an essential element, I won't quibble with you too much.

99% of DOS-era RPGs and JRPGs are thrown out of the window because Blue Collared Rawls demands branches, amirite? Oh, wait, is it about Anthem? Then nope, still not enough for a competenr RPG. Anthem seems not to be very stat-based interactions-friendly game either, which makes it very lousy RPG. CP2077 too!

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I'm not 100% sold on the idea that game = stats.

A game within the context of being an RPG, I mean. Because the stats are there to make a "playable character" out of your story crust, and then you have a playable role who has a story and a "self".

"our game has stats and gear that you level up, therefore it's an RPG"

Didn't CDPR say that too about CP2077 at some point? I have a recollection of doing a facepalm about something like that, because it isn't about simply "having some stats", it's about what you do with them that counts.

 

[Rawls]

99% of DOS-era RPGs and JRPGs are thrown out of the window because Blue Collared Rawls demands branches, amirite?

Not thrown out the window. Just not accurately in the category of RPG.

Didn't CDPR say that too about CP2077 at some point? I have a recollection of doing a facepalm about something like that, because it isn't about simply "having some stats", it's about what you do with them that counts.

IIRC correctly it was in the context of discussing RPG vs FPS. It was something like "yes stats effect game play, it's still a RPG right?" or something like that. I can't find the quote but I remember it too. I'll keep looking ...

EDIT: There it is - https://www.vg247.com/2018/06/22/cyberpunk-2077-cd-projekt-talks-dismembering-katanas-deep-rpg-systems-romance-controversial-decision-go-first-person/

Part of that fear of turning Cyberpunk first-person is that it will lose its role-playing elements. People don’t want to lose what makes The Witcher 3 and the Cyberpunk pen and paper RPG so popular. But if first-person is usually associated with ‘shooter’, the development team are looking to blend is with RPG. Hit someone with a shotgun and they’ll take damage to multiple body parts. Blood spatters on the wall, but numbers rise off the body too.

“This is still an RPG, right? It has to be a stats driven gameplay system,” says Pietras. “You want to reflect those damage options and how they’re connected to your stats and your skills and attributes in general. You can then adjust your weapon type to the situation.”

So yeah. He agrees that stats are required. But I'm not sure I do.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Stats-based-gameplay do not equal RPG.

But stats are needed when you are asked to create a character (if you really are creating the character I mean).

Plus what I said before: even if stats aren't formally in the game, they are there by other means: gameplay, scenarised accomplishment/failures, etc...

For example in Super Mario 2, Luigi can jump higher than Mario and Toad is faster than Mario. Those are stats results, even if not formally written somewhere, they are "hidden".

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

Well, if he does the songwritting then technically he is. That doesn't mean he's good.

I make a difference between entertainers and artists, otherwise I can consider myself an artist every time I fart or call myself the new picasso when last weekend I painted my living room.

Anthem dev essentially said "our game has stats and gear that you level up, therefore it's an RPG" My original point was that stats alone do not make an RPG. So no Anthem dev, you are incorrect.

If you at least have the branching story C&C part in there as an essential element, I won't quibble with you too much.

anthem has a branching story. You can look here how shitty dialogues are, but still... It makes you regret fallout 4:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/342400724

I don't know why the site doesn't let me incorporate the video as a medium. Oh, well...

-------------------------------

anyway, my personal definition of RPG is:

1) you role-play a specific character or one you create
2) you can resolve a situation in different ways (even just via a strategical combat system, e.g. divinity OS) or take important decisions leading to different results
3) stats are important to some extent (character creation or just elemental DMG)

An RPG game needs to have all these feature. Then you can have action-RPG (TW series, if you take levels away are still RPGs but just get better), turn-based RPG, immersive sim-RPG and so on.

According to my criteria:

Fallout is an RPG series
Mass effect is an RPG series
FInal fantasy as well
Old isometric RPG, they all are of course
HZD is not an RPG (doesn't have point 2), but an action game with RPG elements (=stats), same for AC origins (I haven't played it tough)
Detroit,:nope, it's in david cage's own genre (but I agree is more RPG than HZD)
Destiny: NO WAY
CP2077: as far as I've seen, absolutely YES (hopefully an imersive sim-RPG, meaning very realistic in its RPG mechanics)

 

[fchopin]

There is no way a first person shooter will ever become the perfect RPG. Cyberpunk 2077 will be a great game but not a true RPG.

 

[Lucian06]

first person shooter?
Cyberpunk has ja full Melee Combat System.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Cyberpunk has ja full Melee Combat System.

So does Half Life and Doom.

 

[lelxrv]

I'm not even sure what perspective has to do with true-ness of RPG. We can't even come to agreement when it comes to defining RPG as a genre.

By this logic we can discard most of pnp RPGs, because majority of them are FPP.

 

[Lucian06]

The Witcher 3 is a third shooter

 

[Hoplite_22]

There is no way a first person shooter will ever become the perfect RPG. Cyberpunk 2077 will be a great game but not a true RPG.

This is false, System Shock 2 is already the perfect CRPG and that was first person.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I'm not even sure what perspective has to do with true-ness of RPG.

The perspective alone has nothing to do with it. Not one thing. What matters is how the game as a whole works.

By this logic we can discard most of pnp RPGs, because majority of them are FPP.

No they aren't. There is no "perspective" dictated in PnP. The GM might say "You step outside the bar and see a beached manatee. How did it get there when there's no water for 100 kilometers in any direction, is beyond comprehension", but how you interpret the situation in completely up to you. Are "you" looking at the manatee, or do you vision your character looking at it - it makes no difference.