Does Cyberpunk actually use AI for normal citizens?

[Mk3rd]

Alternate Crowd Behavior and other tweaks

Alters crowd movement and spawning, traffic behavior and spawning, enemy search mechanics and streaming systems in Cyberpunk 2077

www.nexusmods.com

Mod here already altered it a bit. Who knows what else they can add-in.


I'm curious if it's possible to add in routines that are somewhat close to RDR2's individual scheduled routines on Cyberpunk's massive crowd. Like at least actual destinations.

 

[Draedark]

Not every "extra" needs to have something to offer the player. I view the majority of the "extras" in this game as I do the rocks, trees, stumps, ambient critters, etc. in other similar games. They are meant to be scenery.

Instead of passing the same tree or rock scaled and rotated multiple times, you pass these generic extras. They are there to offer nothing but atmosphere and scenery.

Maybe ambient fauna is a better description for them than NPC or AI. I think that is the purpose of them, anything else they can do is gravy.

AF - in before it was cool.

 

[IskrasFemme]

But that's the thing the Gregski and I are saying.

This is not AI. This is reactive scripting and algorithms. That's it. That's all there is to it. X happens - Y, Z can happen as a reaction to it.

There is no actual AI in the entire world. Some companies are working on them and making strides but none actually have a working AI.

AI is a buzzword used by games developers, nothing more. The actual computing power that would be necessary to run an actual AI is not available for home computers.

A real AI would react how it damn well pleases. If you block it's path and it decides it will not move until you do, that's what it'll do but IT will decide what to do. Not some pre-written decision branch.

As Gregski said, Real AI is probably the next big milestone in games. Heck, it's probably the next big milestone for humanity. Until it takes over that is.

It's just that, it seems to me that you see AI in a more organic and more generic sense. Something more advanced. A reactive algorithm is a type of artificial primitive intelligence. I also think that more elaborate things will only exist in distant futures. But something simpler, it is possible today in games using some principles that already exist and / or means, tools, that we already have.

I apply the same principle for 'enemy AIs', but for alleged NPCs who don't react like enemies. It is possible to make a database reactive to events linked to the player, to what the player files and, from there, start a dialog. it is something elaborate, it would require time, animations, sound (voices, in this case, I think of another type of AI, tool). Elite Dangerous has it already and works relatively well. In this case, I mean a database related to events in the universe, including a narrative voice (sound) and artificially produced sound.

 

[gregski]

Not every "extra" needs to have something to offer the player. I view the majority of the "extras" in this game as I do the rocks, trees, stumps, ambient critters, etc. in other similar games. They are meant to be scenery.

Instead of passing the same tree or rock scaled and rotated multiple times, you pass these generic extras. They are there to offer nothing but atmosphere and scenery.

Maybe ambient fauna is a better description for them than NPC or AI. I think that is the purpose of them, anything else they can do is gravy.

AF - in before it was cool.

I agree with this as well. While of course it can be irritating to many players, it was designed rather as a background for what CDPR is know for: story & narrative, dialogues, quests, characters.

They just had to prioritize. And I expect a logical outcome of their analysis was that they will gain more with putting their resources in story, dialogue, quest and art departments than they would gain by burning those resources on creating complex scripts and systems for 1000s of NPCs that will surround the player in a city-based game. With those systems layered on top of other already very complex and possibly unstable ones.

 

[Mk3rd]

Not every "extra" needs to have something to offer the player. I view the majority of the "extras" in this game as I do the rocks, trees, stumps, ambient critters, etc. in other similar games. They are meant to be scenery.

Instead of passing the same tree or rock scaled and rotated multiple times, you pass these generic extras. They are there to offer nothing but atmosphere and scenery.

Maybe ambient fauna is a better description for them than NPC or AI. I think that is the purpose of them, anything else they can do is gravy.

AF - in before it was cool.

And considering TW3's npc behaviours aren't even impressive, I reckon it'll take a few more titles in order for them to actually give priority to pedestrians. Right now they're just bare-bone atmosphere for the narratives.

But damn they look pretty. Shiny clothes and all. Especially in huge numbers

 

[faverodefavero]

I agree with this as well. While of course it can be irritating to many players, it was designed rather as a background for what CDPR is know for: story & narrative, dialogues, quests, characters.

They just had to prioritize. And I expect a logical outcome of their analysis was that they will gain more with putting their resources in story, dialogue, quest and art departments than they would gain by burning those resources on creating complex scripts and systems for 1000s of NPCs that will surround the player in a city-based game. With those systems layered on top of other already very complex and possibly unstable ones.

I agree to some degree.

But the game resources, time and man power.

And many, including myself, feel like the game just didn't got expected trade off.

Other than graphics, base engine and Keanu Reeves, voice acting in general, I and many others here can't see a whole lot of time, talent and budget spent on any gameplay element or branching, complex, interlacing, and deep stories.

Again: feels like everything went into graphics, voice acting, building the bew engine and Keanu Reeves.

Not a fair trade.

 

[OldWorldRadio]

They're brainless zombies, and everytime I come across this fella, I whack him in the head with my cattle-prod nightstick. He deserves it.

 

[IskrasFemme]

I agree with this as well. While of course it can be irritating to many players, it was designed rather as a background for what CDPR is know for: story & narrative, dialogues, quests, characters.

They just had to prioritize. And I expect a logical outcome of their analysis was that they will gain more with putting their resources in story, dialogue, quest and art departments than they would gain by burning those resources on creating complex scripts and systems for 1000s of NPCs that will surround the player in a city-based game. With those systems layered on top of other already very complex and possibly unstable ones.

Needless to create 1000 new scripts, for each one, a script - I think of something different. It is possible to do what I mentioned earlier, a base, an AI, including associating it with 'local perception' (events that occur in a district, a street, etc., associated with this to the NPC that approaches or establishes a reaction with the player lines of dialogue) and if we apply the same 'LOD' principle (which exists, although it is primitive and defined by a general code - i link, including a mod that speaks in that general code). An NPC exists as a reactive entity, when it is at a certain distance, before that, no, it's just an object with a path, I don't mean a line with frames, just. If objects perceive the approach and change, they are replaced by objects with more polygons, I use the same principle for NPCs and not only referring to polygons, but also their reactions. An object can carry several functions in itself. This general code can be replicated to all or part of the NPCs. So we would have a single engine, a single intelligent code for many NPCs. there’s new to that. GTA has that. Star C itizen has this, path + reactive AI, an algorithm that reacts to objects eventually placed in the path of this NPC and object that, by itself, triggers a series of new events (including animations). CR made a video about, inclusive.

Let's think about how enemy NPCs act, same principle. It takes work, of course, but it works.

 

[Draedark]

They're brainless zombies, and everytime I come across this fella, I whack him in the head with my cattle-prod nightstick. He deserves it.View attachment 11114627

I always thought that guy was someone who wanted to be Johnny Silverhand when he grew up, but he never made it but cannot let it go.

 

[faverodefavero]

And considering TW3's npc behaviours aren't even impressive, I reckon it'll take a few more titles in order for them to actually give priority to pedestrians. Right now they're just bare-bone atmosphere for the narratives.

But damn they look pretty. Shiny clothes and all. Especially in huge numbers

They do indeed look pretty, but I would prefer less NPCs, smaller crowds and more depth.

Also the new engine is clearly still way too new and vastly in need of optimization. Game looks good, but as good as to justify it's power requirements to run it barelly well at all, not to talk about FPS dips, stuttering, etc..

 

[madmidder]

Mod here already altered it a bit. Who knows what else they can add-in.


I'm curious if it's possible to add in routines that are somewhat close to RDR2's individual scheduled routines on Cyberpunk's massive crowd. Like at least actual destinations.

This is cool, we saw something like this also in Kingdom Come, unfortunately you can do it in "small games" like this. I mean if you have village where is around 20 people, you can do it, but in Night City where is 6,5mil it's just not possible. It's too much work for something you don't need.

 

[GrimReaper801]

It's just that, it seems to me that you see AI in a more organic and more generic sense. Something more advanced. A reactive algorithm is a type of artificial primitive intelligence. I also think that more elaborate things will only exist in distant futures. But something simpler, it is possible today in games using some principles that already exist and / or means, tools, that we already have.

I apply the same principle for 'enemy AIs', but for alleged NPCs who don't react like enemies. It is possible to make a database reactive to events linked to the player, to what the player files and, from there, start a dialog. it is something elaborate, it would require time, animations, sound (voices, in this case, I think of another type of AI, tool). Elite Dangerous has it already and works relatively well. In this case, I mean a database related to events in the universe, including a narrative voice (sound) and artificially produced sound.

That's not AI in any sense of the word.

Primitive AI is what some companies have achieved so far. Strangely enough, Facebook achieved something incredible when they created two bots that eventually designed their own language we didn't understand and were speaking to each other. They pulled the plug because they didn't have control over the experiment, thank god.

Reactive scripting and algorithms will never be AIs. They create the illusion of AI and if done well it can be almost indistinguishable but it can always be broken if you think of something the coders didn't think of. Once the code faces something that wasn't coded into it, it'll stop.

Here is an example. Say you're playing CP2077 and you decide to park your car in front of an NPC on the street. Right now that NPC simply does a 180 and goes somewhere else. With reactive coding, that NPCs can choose to walk around or jump over because it's the branches that were offered to it.

With an AI, that AI knows it can walk and it knows it can jump, it also knows it can draw it's gun and fire on the guy blocking it's way. This would happen the same way it would for a human. It would quickly think of what it can do and then decide what it wants to do. If it wants to go psycho on your ass for blocking it's way, it'll draw it's gun and shoot you. It wasn't offered any branches, it just knows it can do XYZ because it learned it could and it decided it wanted to Y. It doesn't need a code telling it can go 3 different ways, it creates it's own way.

That is real AI. That is what the term AI stands for and always stood for. No game has achieved anything remotely close to real AI. If the action and it's possible reaction aren't coded in, it's not happening. We're far from achieving this and even farther away from home computers that can handle this.

Creating a database of action and reactions is just more reactive coding. X happens - here are branches leading to different reactions. If Y happens while X happens then there is more chances for JKL reactions and so on. It's not AI and it never will be. If well done, it can create a really convincing illusion but it will never be AI.

With that said, there is no doubt that CP2077's NPC are severely lacking even reactive coding.

 

[Gythral]

Fun how a few see them let rocks and trees etc.
As like rocks & trees most of the civies seen to just get in the away, blocking paths and doorways etc.

 

[IskrasFemme]

That's not AI in any sense of the word.

Primitive AI is what some companies have achieved so far. Strangely enough, Facebook achieved something incredible when they created two bots that eventually designed their own language we didn't understand and were speaking to each other. They pulled the plug because they didn't have control over the experiment, thank god.

Reactive scripting and algorithms will never be AIs. They create the illusion of AI and if done well it can be almost indistinguishable but it can always be broken if you think of something the coders didn't think of. Once the code faces something that wasn't coded into it, it'll stop.

Here is an example. Say you're playing CP2077 and you decide to park your car in front of an NPC on the street. Right now that NPC simply does a 180 and goes somewhere else. With reactive coding, that NPCs can choose to walk around or jump over because it's the branches that were offered to it.

With an AI, that AI knows it can walk and it knows it can jump, it also knows it can draw it's gun and fire on the guy blocking it's way. This would happen the same way it would for a human. It would quickly think of what it can do and then decide what it wants to do. If it wants to go psycho on your ass for blocking it's way, it'll draw it's gun and shoot you. It wasn't offered any branches, it just knows it can do XYZ because it learned it could and it decided it wanted to Y. It doesn't need a code telling it can go 3 different ways, it creates it's own way.

That is real AI. That is what the term AI stands for and always stood for. No game has achieved anything remotely close to real AI. If the action and it's possible reaction aren't coded in, it's not happening. We're far from achieving this and even farther away from home computers that can handle this.

Creating a database of action and reactions is just more reactive coding. X happens - here are branches leading to different reactions. If Y happens while X happens then there is more chances for JKL reactions and so on. It's not AI and it never will be. If well done, it can create a really convincing illusion but it will never be AI.

With that said, there is no doubt that CP2077's NPC are severely lacking even reactive coding.

Ah yes, now I understand, truth and I agree. About facebook, I didn't know that, interesting.

 

[Mk3rd]

feels like everything went into graphics, voice acting, building the bew engine and Keanu Reeves.

Well, the game has a lot more going on under the hood. Complex behaviours for massive crowds surely take up computing resources. And the base consoles right now could barely even compute the current build properly. Adding in more behavioural scripts for massive crowds would probably be too much for the optimization, hence the huge compromise.

I mean, there is a reason why there's a crowd density slider on PC even on TW3 and GTAv and it's not just so that you could hit them less with your vehicle. Those peds take up a lot more resource than you think.

They do indeed look pretty, but I would prefer less NPCs, smaller crowds and more depth.

In a setting like RDR2 it's fitting. I agree 100%. But I can't say the same with the Cyberpunk setting. This setting and genre have congregated streets along with neon lights and aerodynes as part of the aesthetic. I think CDPR were trying to nail that and compromised the behaviour for optimization. And decided they'll be nothing but backdrop for now until the next powerful hardware can compute the density AND the behaviour.

Like I said, there's a reason for density sliders.

 

[IskrasFemme]

About this AI, as you describe it, capable of awareness, I am here wondering how many billions of lines it could create (and destroy at the same time) while deciding on something. An algorithm that, due to its architecture, just like (I don't know which, obviously) capable of generating more algorithms and so on. Just thinking about it, I stay stunned.

 

[faverodefavero]

Well, the game has a lot more going on under the hood. Complex behaviours for massive crowds surely take up computing resources. And the base consoles right now could barely even compute the current build properly. Adding in more behavioural scripts for massive crowds would probably be too much for the optimization, hence the huge compromise.

I mean, there's a reason why there's a crowd density slider on PC even on TW3 and GTAv and it's not just so that you could hit them less with your vehicle. Those peds take up a lot more resource than you think.

GTA V is but an example of a world felt way more realistic in every aspct except photographic still image quality and effects (lights, etc.) and run pretty well. Would gladly take slightly worst visuals for a more believable imersive world in the same setting.

Texture and model wise both games are not so incredibly different though...

Again, feels like CP2077 is just giving way too much up for pretty lights and effects and graphical image quality, that and the engine truly still needs a lot of improvements and optimization (like: it should tun ~30%+ better on current and next generation videocards and ao on)

 

[gregski]

Other than graphics, base engine and Keanu Reeves, voice acting in general, I and many others here can't see a whole lot of time, talent and budget spent on any gameplay element or branching, complex, interlacing, and deep stories.

Here's where I will have to disagree

I don't know why - maybe because it's so well integrated into the game that people just don't notice this - but I feel like the game's most astounding technical achievement is overlooked by almost everyone.

There has been a ton of time, talent and budget spent on the most important gameplay element of branching, complex and deep stories based game - CP2077's "dialogue and scene system", as I call it. CDPR accomplished here exactly what they wanted - a "no cutscene" dialogue system, that let's you move around freely while at the same time you pick dialogue options and have a whole dialogue scene fully animated in real time. No more weird "talking heads" scenes, with NPC just standing there and making weird faces when you choose dialogue options. In CP2077 you have dialogue scenes with NPC talking, moving around, smoking, making faces, hell even blinking at the right time; with lip sync animations engine flawlessly integrated into the whole system. For a game that relies on story, narrative, multiple choice dialogues and quests - this is a kind of technical achievement I haven't seen in any other game.

So, not to go too off-topic with this one - there are a lot of game systems under the hood that took resources to build and take resources to run within the game. NPC scripting must have been one of the areas where CDPR felt like they need to just agree to it being rudimentary, at least for the time being.

 

[Augurianius]

Honestly I ended up seeing this as just a rather poor but likely big IF decision tree, tad lackluster at that even, even the text based Hugo's house of horrors had better branching and interesting decision trees, but I digress, this conglomeration of IFs is a rather decent algorithm, otherwise how would a npc six or seven blocks away be crouching because I sneak killed a tyger claw with my revolver?

 

[sommojames]

That's what I noticed too. AI is a term being used rather loosely nowadays, while I think it would be good people realized the differences.

What we're experiencing right now in most games are scripts + algorithms. We're not even on the level of machine learning and actual Artificial Intelligence is light years ahead.

Games learning from player's actions, adapting to them...Introducing actual AI could be a next big milestone in the development of gaming. But we're still far away from reaching that goal.

The only AI I've ever heard applied to videogame is that thing Google did with deep reinforcement learning to kick asses of pro players at Starcraft 2

What people want is not AI, it is more believable scripted interactions with NPC like in GTA, which is something not too complex to make, it just require to some investment on CRPR part.

I could not give a flying fart if they go this route or not, but given the massive request from the community I believe we can expect more NPC interactivity in an Enhanced Edition (I remember in Witcher 1 they created new NPC models, because too many were clones, so they pay attion to this aspect of the game).