Fixing Mystic Echo and Pincer Manuever

[rrc]

Mythic Echo is really bad for ST. Just because of this one leader, archetypes are killed. Dwarfs were killed only because ME can play NovigradianJustice twice. Now, it has been nerfed to a point that even ME can't win with that which simply means that other leader of ST can't even build a deck around it. Also, even if CDPR has a great idea for a strong Gold card for ST, its price need to be significantly more just to handle ME; making such cards unusable for other leaders. The fix for Mystic Echo along with its repercussions can be something like:
Mythic Echo(14 Provisions Points): Play a ST Special card from your Graveyard with 10 provisions are less (Viable cards: CoF, Counsil or Zoltan's Company)
Novigradian Justice -> 11P
Zoltan Warrior -> 11P
Munro -> 10P

Pincer is a different beast. This reminds me of Strategic Withdrawal (Emhyr). He was able to use any card and then he was changed to be NG specific and CDPR told that "He is restricting our design space". Even though playing any card twice is not the same as drawing any card, they are close. Leaders should be specific only to their faction so that neutral cards can remain neutral. Drawing any card (of any type) is simply broken and can (and have) give way to so many abusing. There should be a limit to the card PM can draw. The fix would be something like:
Pincer Manuever (14 Provision Points): Play an NR card and draw any NR card with 10 provisions are less.
PM can still play a Defender and then any strong engine. Just being able to draw any card (including Caretaker or Seige) is just simply too OP. If the ability should remain the same, PM should get 12 Provision Points. It is mind boggling to think according to CDPR, PM and Guarilla Tactics are of same power level!

 

[Barracuda88]

ME's problem is that while the idea of limiting leader abilities to specific faction cards is nice, there aren't really enough ST special cards. While I like the fix idea, it leaves literally just 3 cards you can use the ability on, unless you want to waste it on tempering or caress. Combine that with the fact that the 3 usable cards have their own limitations in terms of deck-building, and this begins to feel terribly restricting and not worth the 3 dwarf supply points you get back. I would say if you're going to put a 10 provision limit on this, you'd have to open it up to neutrals.

PM should probably be something like play NR card then draw NR UNIT with 10 provisions or less.

 

[Gen_Liu]

In both case, I trully believe they need to be reworked (exactly the same concept as Enslave imo).
It's sad for ME because that's a leader effect that I love but we need to be honest here, this effect is broken as hell.

ME becomes broken as soon as you design a gold to be powerful and if you don't then the ability become useless.
But the biggest problem being, with this kind of leader ability, CDPR can't design ST specials freely. They always have to think "Is this gonna break the game in conjonction with ME".
As a result, you're not making special for being played with the faction but with one single leader ability which isn't the best thing to do imo.

There may be a world where ME would work properly and be balanced but I don't know what it would look like, personally, as far as I can think, it's either broken or unplayable.

PM is a different case, the first time I saw this ability I kinda scratched my head because I really don't know how CDPR stumbled into that kind of effect and not think it would cause some problems.
There's two things that always prove to be OP in CCG which are Hard tutors and (more specific to Gwent) massive tempo play in a single turn.
PM combines both, so...

 

[Luckless_Jack]

ME becomes broken as soon as you design a gold to be powerful and if you don't then the ability become useless.

...

There may be a world where ME would work properly and be balanced but I don't know what it would look like, personally, as far as I can think, it's either broken or unplayable.

How about "Play a bronze or silver special card from your graveyard"?

Oh, wait....

Yeah, I still think getting rid of silver cards was a big mistake.

I suppose they could try "Play a bronze special card from either graveyard" or something, but it is kind of underwhelming given the currently rather feeble strength of most bronze specials.

Another option might be to expand the ability to "Play a bronze special card from your graveyard or deck". A bit more flexible and could enable many different strategies, unlike the current implementation. There should be no need to restrict it to only Scoia'tael cards if it is being limited to just bronze specials.

Or, as suggested above by rrc, they could try using the mechanism of restriction by provisions, e.g. "Play a special card from your graveyard with a cost of x provisions or less", where x could be either a fixed number or a variable based on deck composition similar to the Call Of Harmony ability. You have to watch out whenever you balance any special cards via their provision cost in the future though, so you don't accidentally let an OP one into the permitted subset.

Even after all this time, it still impresses me how they are able to keep creating new problems to have to try to fix...

 

[Payus]

What if all the leaders with play 2 cards in the same turn, when activated they create a special stratagem with an order that can be activated next turn and after that turn it destroys itself.
That would give the oponent some info + maybe a turn to prepare, play weather if you know that skill will be used on a specific row, play black blood, tainted ale, Villentretemerth etc....

 

[DRK3]

These 2 leader abilities are definitely the most powerful, and completely unbalanced in terms of provisions, comparing with the other leaders of the same faction.

With Pincer Maneuver you can basically do anything, the only restriction is one of the 2 cards you play needs to be NR, which is barely a restriction considering how OP NR cards are.

And Mystic Echo is almost as bad. People complaining about having few options for special cards are deluded - yes Waters of Brokilon and Novigrad Justice are always the same (and incredibly powerful), but Call of the Forest lets you play ANY SC unit from your deck, so you can basically do the same thing as Pincer Maneuver, and even better than Call of Harmony, since you have no deck-building restrictions.

 

[dragoonzen]

Why does lockdown only grants you 10 extra provision but ME and PM gives so much more provision?

Both ME and PM provision should be reduced to like 8-9, that would force a bit more creative in deck building.

 

[DRK3]

Why does lockdown only grants you 10 extra provision but ME and PM gives so much more provision?

Both ME and PM provision should be reduced to like 8-9, that would force a bit more creative in deck building.

Because the devs havent bothered to do a proper balance of leader provisions... since the launch of Homecoming, basically. And lets not forget in 2019 they released 16 new leaders (leader abilities now)

All they did is a small provision revision when a new leader comes and is broken, the next month, and that's it.

 

[dragoonzen]

Doesn't matter if you are down a card going into the final round, it all depends on your hand and what cards you got left. You can still win, it's the same thing 2-0 your opponent, sometimes you have to win the second round being one card down.

 

[Gen_Liu]

What if all the leaders with play 2 cards in the same turn, when activated they create a special stratagem with an order that can be activated next turn and after that turn it destroys itself.
That would give the oponent some info + maybe a turn to prepare, play weather if you know that skill will be used on a specific row, play black blood, tainted ale, Villentretemerth etc....

Well, I don't know honestly. This is a recurrent problem when a leader has one single powerful ability as opposed to multiple charges that can be used throughout the different rounds.
I personally think this concept alone was a mistake. Just think about it, Enslave, Mystic Echo, Pincer Maneuver...
They all follow the same pattern and all cause problems in the game.

Your idea isn't a bad one, far from it but it pushes players into the usual issue of "having an answer to one single situation or lose the game". It's better than nothing but I think they should straight up rework those leaders because this type of abilities are just impossible to balance (they're either way too weak or way too strong, depending on how much support the game provides).

 

[Barracuda88]

And Mystic Echo is almost as bad. People complaining about having few options for special cards are deluded - yes Waters of Brokilon and Novigrad Justice are always the same (and incredibly powerful), but Call of the Forest lets you play ANY SC unit from your deck, so you can basically do the same thing as Pincer Maneuver, and even better than Call of Harmony, since you have no deck-building restrictions.

Yeah, not quite. You can't use it to pull a scenario, you can't use to it pull a Caretaker, nor Heatwave, etc. CoF is an excellent, and a very useful card, but there are reasons ME is used to cheese Waters 90 percent of the time. Not the least of which (though no the only one) is, you'll rarely find yourself with two of your crucial "ST units" still in the deck when you need them.
CoH, though with restrictions, will pull not just units, but any ST cards, so I would definitely not say CoF is "better." Also, CoH gives you 3 more provisions to work with, so why would you ever use ME+CoF instead?

 

[Luckless_Jack]

I was just trying to think back to what leaders were like in the Beta. For the most part, I remember them seeming more balanced with more of them being viable. Not perfect by any means, but better.

Of course back then, playing your leader took up a full turn itself. Since the change in Homecoming to make leaders supplementary to your normal turns, we have had a lot more issues with balance and lack of leader diversity.

The new approach allows more combo play, but personally I think I preferred it as it was before. If you wanted to combo a leader play with another card back then, it occurred over two turns, which gave your opponent a chance to try to do something about it. Now they can't disrupt such plays. Personally I don't think that is healthy for the game.

I'm not sure where CDPR go from here to be honest. I think they have dug themselves quite a big hole. Do they make all leader abilities of the multiple small actions type, with none being able to play a second card in any way? That would probably result in a lack of sufficient variety. Or do they return to leader abilities which play as a turn in their own right? That would make many of the current abilities very tricky to implement.

With the way the game plays right now, neither option seems to quite fit. I suspect things will be left largely as they are, with a few minor provision allowance tweaks and perhaps a few small changes. I hope I am wrong though.

 

[Gen_Liu]

I was just trying to think back to what leaders were like in the Beta. For the most part, I remember them seeming more balanced with more of them being viable. Not perfect by any means, but better.

Of course back then, playing your leader took up a full turn itself. Since the change in Homecoming to make leaders supplementary to your normal turns, we have had a lot more issues with balance and lack of leader diversity.

The new approach allows more combo play, but personally I think I preferred it as it was before. If you wanted to combo a leader play with another card back then, it occurred over two turns, which gave your opponent a chance to try to do something about it. Now they can't disrupt such plays. Personally I don't think that is healthy for the game.

I'm not sure where CDPR go from here to be honest. I think they have dug themselves quite a big hole. Do they make all leader abilities of the multiple small actions type, with none being able to play a second card in any way? That would probably result in a lack of sufficient variety. Or do they return to leader abilities which play as a turn in their own right? That would make many of the current abilities very tricky to implement.

With the way the game plays right now, neither option seems to quite fit. I suspect things will be left largely as they are, with a few minor provision allowance tweaks and perhaps a few small changes. I hope I am wrong though.

Honestly, I think things are not as grim as you describe.
You pointed out something very interesting: they changed the way leaders affect the board by being able to use their ability during the same turn they play their card, which is probably the core problem.

How many leader ability changed completely since Homecoming? Not a lot right? It's probably the issue. Leaders were designed following a certain logic that's not compatible with the way they work now, then they made PM based on this very same model.

They just have to rework the problematic abilities and make them suitable for being used the same turn the player play a card and the problem will be solved.

 

[Barracuda88]

Making sure they aren't "renewable" would be a pretty good start.

 

[Barracuda88]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't NG have the only unit that is able to refresh leader abilities? These two Leader abilities cannot, as far as I am aware, be refreshed (PM and ME).

Yeah, I was talking more about fixing leader abilities in general, in response to the previous post about how they went from being played as a card to this new "power" played on top of a turn. I think renewing things like artifacts and leader abilities is way OP right now, and the fact that only NG can renew leader abilities makes, if anything, the situation even worse.