How to save the Golds

[GenLiu]

How to save the Golds

A little topic to talk about the Golds that has been left behind since the last patch.
What would you do to make them playable/strong again.

I hope this kind of thread doesn't exist already, I checked the forum until quiet some time before and didn't find any so it should be find unless I'm blind.

Below, my though about each of them and what I would personally do to balance things out.

But before I start, a couple things I wanted to mention :

1/ Golds should not be targetable by locking effects unless the card says otherwise (like D-shakles for example). Gold units that gain power over time will NEVER be viable as long as it's the case and D-shakles is a dead card for as long as other locking units can hit Gold just fine (not that it was strong before but at least you could make a case for including this card in a control deck....not anymore this is now THE most useless card in the entire game imo).

2/ Epidemic should NOT hit Golds. It might sound like a nerf but this is actually a buff and the card dropped significantly in power and popularity since it hits Golds (especially considering that Keira Metz can cast it. It makes no sense that she can die from her own spell).

Alright, let's go :

TIBOR : Instead of boosting him by 15, he spawns two 7 str token on its row. The tokens could be tagged "Soldier" so it would give him more options on the deck that can house him.

CIRI DASH : If she's the target of a damaging or destroying effect controlled by your opponent, dodges this effect and weaken her by 3 (Dodge mean that she disappear, avoiding the damage and then reappear at the same spot).

UNSEEN ELDER : If unseen elder is destroyed by your opponent, spawn a higher vampire token that has base strenght equal to half the Unseen elder's power (rounded down). Get the tag "indestructible, meaning he can't be destroyed for as long as he's gold and his str is set to 1 if it would be reduced below this value.

HJALMAR : If lord of Undvik is killed boost up to 6 friendly units by 2 (you choose the units but the same cannot be targetted twice).

BLOODY BARON : Streghten self instead of boosting and regresses. Also add "whenever Bloody Baron is destroyed by your opponent spawn Dea the merciful"

Dea the merciful - 2 str, silver, agile, loyal (Lubberkin)
Boosts self by half the base str the BB had before dying (rounded down).

TRISS BUTTERFLY SPELL : Deathwish : Boost all friendly units by 2. If destroyed by an enemy, spawn a Butterfly spell "aura".
An aura is a token with no strength on it (similar to emblems in MTG) which reproduce the effect of the unit that spawns it (so here for example, the Butterfly spell aura would keep boosting the weakest units at the beginning of your turn). Auras are Silver and can be locked just like units.

YENNIFER, THE CONJURER : Deathwish : Damage all enemies by 2. If destroyed by an enemy, spawn a Conjurer spell "aura".
Check out Triss butterfly spell just above for more explanation about aura.

CIRI : Her armor is replaced by 3 counters. Whenever a damaging or destroying effect should hit her she dodges it and the counter tick down a point. When she has no more counter, she loses the ability to dodge (but not to come back in your hand if you lose the round).

VELLENTRET...TER.....MER...........BORCH! : 8 str, no armor. Add "Deathwish : Destroy the strongest units on the board".

SUCCUBUS : Loses her armor but instead has "Whenever Succubus is destroyed by your opponent, move the weakest unit on the opposing row to your side. If its power is lower than 1O, set it to 1O

OLD SPEARTIP : Also wake up if his last point of armor is removed.

PRISCILLA : Remove her armor and replace it with "Deathwish : Boost all units you control by 2".

BIRNA BRAN : Increases base strength to 6.

WILD BOAR OF THE SEA : At the beginning of your turn, you choose which unit is damage and which one is strengthen among any unit on your side of the board (you don't have to put it next to a unit and then get wrecked by movement).

And for the end, a little nerf about Eskel because I feel like a Neutral card shouldn't be an auto include in every deck (since it narrows deck creation).

ESKEL : Destroy a non Gold, Non boosted, non damaged enemy unit.

WILD LAND SPIRIT : 7 str, spawn 3 rabid wolves OR a fog effect.

EDIT : FG15-ISH7EG pointed out how strong Triss butt, Yen con and Priscilla would be if their ability was a Deathwish, I changed it to what seems more reasonable to me (since your opponent always have the choice to let them live).

EDIT 2 : I've made a few changes based on your feedback. I had some new ideas poping out.
I also added Wild land spirit on the nerf part because he seems quiet ridiculous to me at the very least.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

1) Kind of agree. I'm not sure if they should be completly immun to locks other than D-Shackles, or if other locks should only have a timer so that they can only lock for 2 rounds.
2) I agree with you.

TIBOR: I would make it boosting the two adjacent units by 6, such that he needs a bit of set up.
CIRI-DASH: Is this supposed to be additional or a replacement? I'd like it as an additional effect.
UNSEEN ELDER: Don't really like that idea as it feels too forced.
HJALMAR: I would make it boost 2 units on each side by 3, such that he also needs more set up.
BLOODY BARON: I like the idea of spawning a Lubberkin/Botchling, that could give some new great synergies

Triss and Yen: I only used them in NR where I was able to get them to 8 strength before playing them, such that they were out of the range of Alzurs and they are still usefull enough. The only 2 things I would change is their deathwish triggering always if killed during the round, due to the fact that they currently not trigger against weather or Cow Carcass and similar effects and make the deathwish aplly their effect twice instead of just by 2.
Boosting /damaging by 2 would be far too strong. Then it would be better to let them get killed instead of stay alife.

CIRI: That sounds a bit toocomplicated in my opinion, but I like it.
BORCH: Back to 5 strength, but give him that deathwish. The only problem I see is, if he is consumed. But then at least the consumer will have an above average strength.
SUCCUBUS: I like the idea of moving the lowest unit. It doesn't have to be even buffed in my opinion.
OLD SPEARTIP: I like that.
PRISCILLA: I use her and I quite like her the way she is. I never had any problems of her being removed. Also that deathwish would be far too strong.
BIRNA BRAN: Comparing her to Keira it might be fair. Nonetheless I don't really think she needs that buff.
WILD BOAR: I feel that movement as a counter is quite fair, because the WILD BOAR can be really strong. Also movement or inserting a spy next to the WILD BOAR was possible before the gold patch, too. I would rather give it an ability, when moved such that it is more attractive for the enemy to move the adjacent unit.

ESKEL: Is he really that prominent? I furthermore would rather weaken his base strength, else his usefullness will be far too low.

 

[Skryba86]

I'd say I agree with all of your suggestions, were it not for succubus xD that would make her an almost guaranteed 15-20 strength swing with a very high ceiling to be much stronger.

Due to how strong she actually can be if unanswered, I feel she shouldn't have that big of a safeguard. If she only moves the weakest unit, without changing its power, then yeah, I'd be on board. She'd still remain susceptible to locks and it would also still be viable to kill her most of the time.

 

[GenLiu]

1) Kind of agree. I'm not sure if they should be completly immun to locks other than D-Shackles, or if other locks should only have a timer so that they can only lock for 2 rounds.
2) I agree with you. [...] ESKEL: Is he really that prominent? I furthermore would rather weaken his base strength, else his usefullness will be far too low.

Tris Butt, Yen Con and Priscilla, I meant to say "if your opponent destroys it" I'm gonna make the correction on the main post.
This way I think it's fine since your opponent always has the option to let them live and letting them tick up for many turn will probably produce more value than killing them when they appear on the board.

Tibor, it's not a bad idea but he wouldn't be a finisher anymore. And two adjacent unit? Wow that would be crazy strong. Tibor is a 13 and then he buffs the two units on his right and two units on his left, that would be 37 power swing split among multiple units. I think you meant adjacent units instead of "two" adjacent units.
That's a good idea though, why not. But I suggest that he buffs 2 units of your choice (a bit like a Gold version of Standard bearer) as only boosting adjacent units might be just too much set up.

Ciri dash, yes it would be an additional effect.

Hjalmar, you mean boost the two units on his left and right by 3...yes why not but that would make him a lot weaker than I though. Not sure it would make the cut against other Gold, especially with movement being so prevalent.

Ciri, yes it would be complicated but I think it's fine for a Gold to be. I mean, they are the most powerful card in the game, if it takes a few seconds to read and understand the way they work it's okay imo.
Plus, it's very fitting to Ciri (like she teleports and avoid the spells that targets her).

Birna Bran, well I think it wouldn't be bad to give a push to Skellige considering how low they are right now and I feel like it's fair when you indeed compare her to Keira.

Wild Boar of the Sea, honestly movement destroys the card and it's possible to deny its value entirely with this mechanic. I play multiple archetypes including Skellige self wounding and believe me, Scoia'tael movement is nearly impossible to beat for this deck.

Eskel, yes, he's everywhere right now, he's ability is crazy strong because he can eat a lot of key cards from your opponent in pretty much any deck/archetype. The only match up where he's bad is against Foltest (obviously).

Thanks a lot for your feed back.

I'd say I agree with all of your suggestions, were it not for succubus xD that would make her an almost guaranteed 15-20 strength swing with a very high ceiling to be much stronger.

Due to how strong she actually can be if unanswered, I feel she shouldn't have that big of a safeguard. If she only moves the weakest unit, without changing its power, then yeah, I'd be on board. She'd still remain susceptible to locks and it would also still be viable to kill her most of the time.

It wouldn't be a 15-20 power swing if she's dead. The stealing of the lowest power unit only trigger if your opponent kills her.
Only stealing the weakest unit would be crazy weak as it would represent no value against Scoiat'ael control and Skellige, the point of balancing the Golds is to guarantee them what I consider being "Gold value" and getting a 1O str unit is definitely in the right range imo.
Also remeber you have 2 turns to answer her, you can play a small body first and destroy her next.

Another idea if it's too strong would be to set the power of the weakest unit she steals upon death to 1O (even if the unit has more) but only stealing the weakest unit would be way too weak and will end up making her a useless card. Again, she's a Gold, you don't play a Gold to steal a 1 str unit from your opponent (not even a 3 or 4 to be honest) she has to be better then that.

That being said, this is my own opinion, I respect yours obviously. Thank you for your feed back.

 

[Skryba86]

GenLiu Thing is, you force your opponent to deal with her. The fact that she dies doesn't erase her value, because the opponent had to sink some value into her. So, her own power is still considered in the swing she makes, as the opponent will have wasted damage to get rid of her.

​​​​​​​Taking that into account, if she steals a 3 power body for example, she'll be automatically an 18 power swing card even when dealt with by your opponent. I honestly believe that's too much. But it's obviously only my opinion, so we don't need to agree on it =P

 

[Iuliandrei]

I don't know how to feel about locking golds and i agree golds need some improvement right now i don't really agree with your solutions.

Also regarding the likes for Yen:Con or Triss:Butt i don't really like this deathwish idea to begin with, there is another suggestion to give them a shield which works better both from a flavor perspective and it would be a stronger effect.

My philosophy would be to make golds have unique and impactful effects, but golds that have a high potential should also have the possibility to be disrupted somehow, while those golds that are played just for points should have an unique effect, like Regis.

 

[devivre]

I wouldn't change golds that much tbh (although I like some of your suggestions, like for example the one for Tibor).

One of the things I personally don't like is that bronze cards can so easily interact with golds. I'd like to see a lot more limitations here. I believe that alone could help a lot.

But I'm glad that silver locks finally work on gold cards. I never liked the special status of d-shackles a while ago.

 

[GenLiu]

GenLiu Thing is, you force your opponent to deal with her. The fact that she dies doesn't erase her value, because the opponent had to sink some value into her. So, her own power is still considered in the swing she makes, as the opponent will have wasted damage to get rid of her.

Taking that into account, if she steals a 3 power body for example, she'll be automatically an 18 power swing card even when dealt with by your opponent. I honestly believe that's too much. But it's obviously only my opinion, so we don't need to agree on it =P

Oh, hold on, I understand your though and to be fair, you're right. I just didn't take the removal used by your opponent into account but this is indeed a ressource used by him and something he "loses" while taking down the Succubus.
Maybe setting the power of the unit to 5 would do the trick then. It feels a lot more reasonable and still provide a decent amount of value for the Succubus' controller.

I don't know how to feel about locking golds and i agree golds need some improvement right now i don't really agree with your solutions.

Also regarding the likes for Yen:Con or Triss:Butt i don't really like this deathwish idea to begin with, there is another suggestion to give them a shield which works better both from a flavor perspective and it would be a stronger effect.

My philosophy would be to make golds have unique and impactful effects, but golds that have a high potential should also have the possibility to be disrupted somehow, while those golds that are played just for points should have an unique effect, like Regis.

To be fair I don't see any future for any Gold like Wild boar of the sea or Yen con if you can lock them. Nobody is going to play those card at highest level of play if they can just be reduced to a body with no ability by playing some of the most commonly played silvers in the game.
The thing is, when you play Eskel, Coral, Zoltan or any Gold with a deploy ability they already got their value when you take them down. If you play Coral on a 2O str Dol Blatanna protector she's already 18 points of value even if you kill her. This is not the case with cards like Succubus or Triss butt because they generate value upon time, so why would I play those cards if they can be locked (and lose their entire value) when I can make a lot more points with no setup whatsoever by playing a Gold with deploy ability?

Your suggestion is perfectly fine, I like the idea of giving them a better armor (except that if it consists of giving them more actual armor it's not going to work out well because Dun banner can just eat it and then they're exposed to any sort of removal) but if there is one thing I'm 1OO% certain about, it's that Gold units MUST be immune to lock effects besides D-shakles if we want the large majority of them to be playable.

 

[partci]

I was thinking about Tyborg, that maybe the card that he pulls for his opponent should be played immediately and receive the Spy Tag, if they keep that for him. If it is a Special card I guess a random Bronze Unit might receive it. He was having a small, tiny value with Reveal before, but it is no more.

I am coming from the NR Gold Cards that have insane synergy with their Bronzes. Why should other factions be different? Like, Kayran was reworked in one of the best cards for Monsters right now and guess what? It has synergy with some Bronze cards from it's side.

 

[GenLiu]

I was thinking about Tyborg, that maybe the card that he pulls for his opponent should be played immediately and receive the Spy Tag, if they keep that for him. If it is a Special card I guess a random Bronze Unit might receive it. He was having a small, tiny value with Reveal before, but it is no more.

I am coming from the NR Gold Cards that have insane synergy with their Bronzes. Why should other factions be different? Like, Kayran was reworked in one of the best cards for Monsters right now and guess what? It has synergy with some Bronze cards from it's side.

Not a bad idea but you really need to have Menno in hand, otherwise it's pretty bad.
I guess Nauzicaa brigade or Treason might do the trick too but you really hope that you don't give a Dun Banner with some armor available in that case.
Definitely an interesting idea though, I like it.

 

[partci]

... you really hope that you don't give a Dun Banner with some armor available...

Ahem... same case with today...

BDW, with the insane values that Bronzes generate today, Tyborg is REALLY BAD, like, atrocious to play, except if you are not playing mill. And I am up to see him in even one mill deck. So, food for thought.

 

[GenLiu]

Ahem... same case with today...

That's a good point....I didn't even though about that XD

 

[CosmicSmasher]

Triss Buterfly and Yen Conjurer need something done to increase their viability. Unless you are going against a deck that contains zero board interaction cards these get destroyed or locked instantly. Give them X amount of armor. That way they have surviability without getting a strength increase. Of course that doesn't address the silver lock issue which will wreck gold passives for the forseeable future. Other golds cards are almost unplayable as well thanks to the silver lock abilities. Something like Succubus should be weak to removal/movement since it offers a huge board swing, but stuff like Hjalmar, Kambi, Ciri/Ciri Dash, Villen, Wild Boar, and anything with passive or timed effects are mostly worthless. These cards need some sort of design change cause everyone is using golds that have on play effects. I get that the devs wanted to alter the game by changing the power level of gold cards, but making a large quantity of these gold cards mostly unplayable is a disappointing direction to the see the game take. Between removal, lock, and movement, there are too many cards being left behind as the game system continues to evolve.

 

[a237426]

Gold Immunity - Balance (Unlockable)

With gold cards now being targetable, a lot of cards have had their utility reduced significantly. This isn't the result of removal, but of locks. Old Speartip is practically unplayable; Triss Butterfly has seen absolutely zero play. Why?

Because you don't need to remove the card in order to stop its effect, you only need to lock it.

CDProjekt Red did their best to counter this -- they gave Triss armor to make her removal harder, and a deathwish to punish the removal. All of which, is useless in the face of being locked.

If gold cards werent immune to removal, but were immune to being locked, a lot of cards would be relevant and viable again; without taking away from the currently viable cards. Even Dimeritium Shackles would be useful for more than just Mill decks again.

The meta has shifted to only using immediate effect golds.

Lets bring the slow play golds back !

 

[Draconifors]

a237426 Thread merged.

The subject of gold cards being lockable is also discussed in this thread, hence the merge.