Ithlinne's Prophecy

[Flare_TM]

Ithlinne's Prophecy

Hello one and all,

I was wondering about some specifics of Ithlinne's Prophecy. This might be a little long-winded so please bear with me and correct me if I'm wrong.

To my understanding "Ithlinne Aegli aep Aevenien" who was an elven oracle who could foresee the future and predicted things such as the Northern wars ( 1239 – 1268 ) and the plagues in 1268, 1272 (and 1294 which is set ahead of the games).

The books also mention she predicts "the bloody War of the Two Unicorns ( 1309–1318 ) and the Haak Invasion (1350)" although I don't know any specific details about who the Unicorns are (Kaedwen's coat of arms) or why invaders from Haakland arrive (which is East of the Blue Mountains and North of Zerrikania) but her most famous prophecy was:

"Verily I say unto you, the era of the sword and axe is nigh, the era of the wolf's blizzard. The Time of the White Chill and the White Light is nigh, the Time of Madness and the Time of Contempt: Tedd Deireádh, the Time of End.

The world will die amidst frost and be reborn with the new sun. It will be reborn of Elder Blood, of Hen Ichaer, of the seed that has been sown. A seed which will not sprout but burst into flame.

Ess'tuath esse! Thus it shall be! Watch for the signs! What signs these shall be, I say unto you: first the earth will flow with the blood of Aen Seidhe, the Blood of Elves...

May Ye All Wail, for the Destroyer of Nations is upon us. Your lands shall they trample and divide with rope. Your cities razed shall be, their dwellers expelled. The bat, owl and raven your homes shall infest, and the serpent will therein make its nest..."

It is suggested that this "Destroyer" is Ciri, last in a line of Elder Blood (Hen Ichaer, the blood of elves), stemming from Shiadhal and then Lara Dorren. See the full bloodline here:

As I understand it, the reference to "the wolf's blizzard. The Time of the White Chill" refers to some sort of cataclysm that will wipe out all life on the planet; is this just a dramatic climate change with endless winters, blizzards and cold, rendering life unsuitable in the world and thus killing off everyone? If so, why is Ciri considered "The Destroyer"? Does she or her offspring trigger the cataclysm? and how?

It mentions the world will be reborn when the seed (Elder Blood aka Ciri or offspring) will burst into flame; does this flame end the frost which engulfs the world thus enabling life to begin anew and as such elves can then repopulate first as they did before minus the humans and other races?

Thanks for reading and any feedback!

 

[Klavi]

Well, that was an interesting read. However, such a massive post and not a single mention of the Wild Hunt...

As I understand it, the reference to "the wolf's blizzard. The Time of the White Chill" refers to some sort of cataclysm that will wipe out all life on the planet; is this just a dramatic climate change with endless winters, blizzards and cold, rendering life unsuitable in the world and thus killing off everyone? If so, why is Ciri considered "The Destroyer"? Does she or her offspring trigger the cataclysm? and how?

Ciri can be considered "the Destroyer" even if she doesn't intentionally destroy anything herself. Prophecies are vague like that. Just like how the White Frost is not necessarily a natural - even if dramatic - climate change.

Remember the Wild Hunt? They're associated with cold and freezing in general. They invade mainly during winters. The King of the Wild Hunt was in Alvin's vision of the snowy apocalypse. According to one of the older trailers, the Wild Hunt have frozen an entire village when they reached it. And Eredin seems to be keen on frost magic.
What does the Wild Hunt want? What did Eredin always want? Ciri, the child of the prophecies. Could Ithlinne's Prophecy be describing the Wild Hunt's full scale invasion? Spooky trans-dimensional knife-ears chasing Ciri through the entire continent, freezing and destroying everything in their way? This way, Ciri, technically, brings doom to everyone, indirectly causing untold amounts of destruction.

The books also mention she predicts "the bloody War of the Two Unicorns ( 1309–1318 )

I can't say much about this one, but one of the Unicorns could be Henselt of Kaedwen. The other... his bastard? The one Ves's possibly carrying? Considering that Henselt can be killed, I'm not really sure about this.

 

[Flare_TM]

Ciri can be considered "the Destroyer" even if she doesn't intentionally destroy anything herself. Prophecies are vague like that. Just like how the White Frost is not necessarily a natural - even if dramatic - climate change.

Remember the Wild Hunt? They're associated with cold and freezing in general. They invade mainly during winters. The King of the Wild Hunt was in Alvin's vision of the snowy apocalypse. According to one of the older trailers, the Wild Hunt have frozen an entire village when they reached it. And Eredin seems to be keen on frost magic.
What does the Wild Hunt want? What did Eredin always want? Ciri, the child of the prophecies. Could Ithlinne's Prophecy be describing the Wild Hunt's full scale invasion? Spooky trans-dimensional knife-ears chasing Ciri through the entire continent, freezing and destroying everything in their way? This way, Ciri, technically, brings doom to everyone, indirectly causing untold amounts of destruction.

Oh yeah, nice analysis, I forgot about the Elder Blood trailer ( https://youtu.be/e5sKolm4cfk?t=11) of Eredin and co. causing the village to freeze over.

Eredin (King of the Wild Hunt) is said to have once possessed (along with Avallac'h) The Gate of the Worlds, a great power allowing one to control space and time but he lost it, now trying to retrieve it. It is known that he and Avallac'h used that power to gain control of at least one world (that being the Aen Elle world where they killed all humans - something Ciri only realized during her escape when she found a huge pile of human bones.

After Ciri's escape from Aen Elle, Eredin and his cavalry chased her through space and time finally catching up with her in a forest on an unknown world. He also haunted Ciri as a wraith while she rested in a French tavern telling her that he would wait for her on The Spiral - a place she eventually entered after her long journey through space and time. That was the last mention of him in the novels.

I believe the Wild Hunt (Dearg Ruadhri / Red Riders in their physical form in their world) could only enter our world as Spectre's / Wraiths since they lost "The Gate of the Worlds", hence the "ghostly cavaclade" sightings and the spectre like image of Eredin in The Witcher 1.

So it begs the question how did the Wild Hunt gain access to our world in physical form? Through the spiral? (a mysterious place where all dimensions meet) and now needs Ciri in order to regain the power to traverse worlds?

 

[Sky999]

The books also mention she predicts "the bloody War of the Two Unicorns ( 1309–1318 )

I can't say much about this one, but one of the Unicorns could be Henselt of Kaedwen. The other... his bastard? The one Ves's possibly carrying? Considering that Henselt can be killed, I'm not really sure about this.

The game is in 1272, well before this event referenced in the book, plus, since it is from the books and not the games, it's safe to assume it is referencing some Kaedweni civil war that would happen decades later in the timeline in which nothing can/has happened to Henselt of Kaedwen, just one of the many things in the Witcher universe that isn't meant to be explained further, it's just to give some historical flavour to the world.

---------- Updated at 06:11 PM ----------

I believe the Wild Hunt (Dearg Ruadhri / Red Riders in their physical form in their world) could only enter our world as Spectre's / Wraiths since they lost "The Gate of the Worlds", hence the "ghostly cavaclade" sightings and the spectre like image of Eredin in The Witcher 1.

I wasn't quite sure of this, at least using the plot of the Witcher 2, as opposed to the books, because:

Spoiler

the place Geralt and Triss are transported to is, I believe, an island in Loc Eskalott, which is in Lyria, and therefore in the world of the Witcher universe, and when the Wild Hunt fight Geralt there, he described them in TW2 as bleeding under their armour when he fought them, suggesting they aren't actually manifesting as spectres, it's an illusion, they are actually physically there just "ghosted up", at least that's the impression I got.

 

[Klavi]

I believe the Wild Hunt (Dearg Ruadhri / Red Riders in their physical form in their world) could only enter our world as Spectre's / Wraiths since they lost "The Gate of the Worlds", hence the "ghostly cavaclade" sightings and the spectre like image of Eredin in The Witcher 1.

So it begs the question how did the Wild Hunt gain access to our world? Through the spiral? (a mysterious place where all dimensions meet) and now needs Ciri in order to regain the power to traverse worlds?

Well, I can't speak about HOW they are getting in, but they clearly can materialize in our world without The Gate. At the end of W2, Geralt mentions that he met the "real" riders at the Hanged Man's Tree, and that happened some time after the books and before the games. They usually send out their spectral emanations - the ghostly cavalcade -, and come in person only for special missions, since it can't be simple.
I assume we'll learn of their methods (if not use them ourselves) in W3.

 

[Lieste]

Spoiler

the place Geralt and Triss are transported to is, I believe, an island in Loc Eskalott, which is in Lyria, and therefore in the world of the Witcher universe, and when the Wild Hunt fight Geralt there, he described them in TW2 as bleeding under their armour when he fought them, suggesting they aren't actually manifesting as spectres, it's an illusion, they are actually physically there just "ghosted up", at least that's the impression I got.

Spoiler

They do indeed originate from the shores of Loc Eskalott (Rivia), but I don't think we can assume that their destination is in the witcher's world ~ they were transported by an interdimensional unicorn and Ciri... plus assisted by Milva, Angeloume, Chair and Regis... as well as the definitely real Dandelion and Triss... There are significant parallels with Arthurian legends ~ Avalon/Ava'llach and their method of travel and ultimate fates seem similar. ("Asleep until called in time of need" or some variation... Their destiny is not yet fulfilled ~ the issue of Cirilla remains unresolved and the Wild Hunt is attempting to use them to find and secure Cirilla for their own ends, or possibly because they know that unrestrained she may be a danger to all worlds?

 

[GuyNwah]

Prophecies don't depend so much on correspondence to fact as they depend on two things: belief in the prophecy, what we scientifically call confirmation bias; and the willingness of leaders to act on that belief. "Each event is preceded by prophecy. But without the hero, there is no event." [Morrowind]

Belief causes people to perceive events, which may be purely ordinary, as the harbingers or enactment of the prophecy.

That belief, carried into action by one capable of action, is what gives truth to the prophecy. This makes the ones who believe that Ciri is the bearer of the seed that will burst into flame, the ones who endanger the world.

 

[Klavi]

Prophecies don't depend so much on correspondence to fact as they depend on two things: belief in the prophecy, what we scientifically call confirmation bias; and the willingness of leaders to act on that belief. "Each event is preceded by prophecy. But without the hero, there is no event." [Morrowind]

While this is correct to some extent, is it applicable here? I always felt like Destiny and Prophecies are more "legit" than that in the Witcher universe.
Of course, that might be because Sapkowski likes to overuse destiny as a plot device...

 

[Guest]

While this is correct to some extent, is it applicable here? I always felt like Destiny and Prophecies are more "legit" than that in the Witcher universe.
Of course, that might be because Sapkowski likes to overuse destiny as a plot device...

This pretty much hits the nail on the head- while prophecies and talks of Destiny and Fate are ubiquitous and, daresay, a dime a dozen, it is also worth noting that quite a few prophecies are contingent on a few factors, one namely being the presence (or lack thereof) of magic or Elder DNA, and also that not everyone is as willing to just let these things happen. For one, Geralt has been shown quite a few times (probably moreso in the games than the books) to change his fate by doing battle with Eredin and co.- similarly, Ciri is also attempting to make her own path untethered to destiny by jumping through the space/time continuum to avoid Eredin and his goons. While the success of these endeavors remains haphazard at best, it does go to show while Destiny remains a driving force in the Witcherverse, it's not made to be as unstoppable as the prophets would paint it out to be.

 

[Flare_TM]

Interesting discussion guys, it makes you wonder whether the prophecy of the world freezing over will come to fruition or not, if Destiny can be altered or not, how Ciri and the Wild Hunt are really involved in this, I guess we will find out by the end of The Witcher 3.

 

[Guest]

Perhaps. Or maybe CDPR will pull a Sapkowski and leave us all hanging- :lol:

One thing's for certain; hype levels are nearing critical mass ( at least for me)

 

[DieSaxon]

Haak Invasion? that's new to me. There is a timeline in The Witcher WIki, is official? there are a lot of events.

Spoiler

they talk about the climate change and say that Northerners thought it would be the end of the world.

 

[Flare_TM]

Haak Invasion? that's new to me. There is a timeline in The Witcher WIki, is official? there are a lot of events.

No idea I don't know the source, but it is mentioned in the official prophecy apparently. But its like Sky999 said earlier; just one of the many things in the Witcher universe that isn't meant to be explained further, it's just to give some historical flavour to the world.

 

[Assalander]

The most powerful Aen Elle like Eredin and Avalla'ch can obviously physically travel like Ciri does (since they did it in the novel), possibly bringing a small retinue with them (the Wild Hunt, in the case of Eredin), maybe under some conditions (like memory loss?). The way I understood it, they wanted Ciri's child so that they could transport entire populations across worlds again, allegedly to save the Aen Seidhe from the climate change.

 

[Sephira]

Interesting discussion guys, it makes you wonder whether the prophecy of the world freezing over will come to fruition or not, if Destiny can be altered or not, how Ciri and the Wild Hunt are really involved in this, I guess we will find out by the end of The Witcher 3.

Ciri being the Destroyer doesn't refer to the White Frost, imho. She already pulled the trigger of destruction, but it's not ice. It's Catriona plague.

Actually Ithlinne, even if she foresaw some things that didn't turn out to be true, the White Frost is one of them. Besides, even if this prophecy may seem so mighty and ominous, generally people don't believe it. Geralt himself mocks Avallac'h for that.
Besides, it may be that the Frost could happen in Aen Elle world, who says that Ithlinne referred to human world for sure? Being an elf, there's a lot to speculate about this event. So a Wild Hunt with icy nuggets on their armour.
But reading this excerpt from Lady of the Lake book you can notice a little nod to when the White Frost foreseen by Ithlinne could happen, what could really be, and what people believe.
Remember that if instead we talk about Aen Elle world, there time flows faster than in Witcherworld, so it will happen less than three thousand years.

‘Quite often I dream,’ Condwiramurs said, ‘I’m in an icy wasteland, where there is nothing but piled of white snow and the sun sparkling on ice. And there is silence, silence calling in my ears. Unnatural silence. The silence of death.’
Nimue nodded, as if she knew what this meant. But she said nothing.
‘Suddenly, it seems that I can hear something,’ continued the adept. ‘I can feel the surface of the ice tremble under my feet. I kneel down in the snow. The ice is clear as glass, it is from a mountain lake, stones and fish can be seen through the thick pane. In my dream, I can also see that, the layer of ice is dozens or perhaps hundreds of inches thick. This does not prevent me from hearing… people screaming for help. Below the ice… there is a frozen world.’
Nimue remained silent.
‘Of course, I know,’ said the adept, ‘the dream is born from Ithlinne’s Prophecy, the famous White Winter, the Time of the White Frost, the time of the Wolf Blizzard. The world has perished under snow and ice that is the forecast of re-birth. Pure and better.’
‘I deeply believe that,’ Nimue said softly, ‘it will regenerate the world. But not that it would be better.’
‘What?’
‘You heard me.’
‘I did not mishear? Nimue, the Time of the White frost has been predicted many times, every cold winter; people believe that it is beginning. But today not even children believe that some long winter will destroy the world.’
‘So you can see, children do not believe, but I do.’
‘Do you have some rational reasons,’ Condwiramurs said with slight irony, ‘or is it a mystical belief in the infallibility of elven prophecies?’

(...)

‘Yes,’ reflected Nimue. ‘Shall I tell you more? Perhaps of the snow falls in Talgar in mid-November. And at the end of December and January, there is snow in the catchment area of Alba, where even a hundred years ago nobody had seen snow. Why at Birke do we celebrate the welcoming of spring, what do you think?’
‘It’s the spring equinox. But it is true that the little children wonder, because outside there is still snow on the ground. At the same time I have read that in ancient times that during Birke daffodils and crocuses had already bloomed.’
‘You mean the ancient times, not more than a hundred and twenty years ago. Historically it has been recently. Ithlinne was right, the prophecy is fulfilling. The world is perishing under the ice. Mankind will perish because of the Destroyer, who was to open the way to salvation. As we know from legend, he did not.’
‘For reasons that are not explained in the legend.’
‘That is true. However, the fact remains, the White Frost is coming. The civilizations of the northern hemisphere are doomed. They will disappear under the sprawling ice, under permafrost and snow. But there is no need to panic, because it will take some time before it happens.’
The Sun went down and the blinding brilliance from the surface of the lake disappeared. Now a softer beam of light fell on the water. The moon bathed the tower of Inis Vitre in a bright glow.
‘How long?’ said Condwiramurs. ‘How long do we have left, do you think? ‘
‘A lot.’
‘How much, Nimue?’
‘About three thousand years.’
Somewhere on the lake, the Fisher King struck himself with the oar and cursed loudly. Nimue shook her head. Condwiramurs sighed.
‘I’ve calmed down a bit. But only a little.’

On a side note, I can even recall a similarity to the real world since I remember the words from my Ecology professor "We live between an ice age and another."

 

[Assalander]

On a side note, I can even recall a similarity to the real world since I remember the words from my Ecology professor "We live between an ice age and another."

Well, I guess I'm biased since I've worked a lot on a related subject, but when I read that I saw a comment to our own inability to perceive human-induced climate change, despite the objective changes that you could perceive (snow falls in Talgar, in the real world one might tell you about the eternal snows of the Kilimandjaro - there's an old french song with that title - that are not eternal anymore, or the passage of the North-West in Canada that is becoming a real thing) Of course in our case it's gonna happen much faster than 3000 years, but still to slow for us to react in time (the famous frog syndrome). And I guess slightly less dramatic than everything covered in ice.

More to the topic, are you saying that the Nimue and Condwiramurs thing happens in the Aen Elle world? I understood that it was in the witcher world given the knowledge they had of the legend of Geralt & co.

If so this prophecy is a weird threat... "THIS WORLD IS ABOUT TO END... eventually." Hopefully there is something more compelling in TW3. Or actually not. I don't think I like the emphasis on this child of prophecy and living weapon thing in the trailers. I hope it's just a way to get more audience, but that in the end it will be just the story of a man trying to protect a loved one (his daughter, so to speak) from all this bullshit (pardon my french). As I particularly liked how TW2 was not about saving the world but just getting through a political mess (and saving Triss was my main motivation in most of the game).

 

[Sephira]

@Assalander no no I didn't want to say that, I should point that out since, rereading my previous post, it seemed I was referring to that part as Aen Elle world, have to fix it. I say, that if the White Frost has to happen and Nimue says they have three thousand years, I guess that if it will happen on Aen Elle world people there have less than three thousand years, since time flows differently.

I think that too, prophecy is a mighty threat at the end but as you can see in the books, some people believed, others said it was all bullshit. But who knows... really want to play W3 to find out what will happen.

Well, I guess I'm biased since I've worked a lot on a related subject, but when I read that I saw a comment to our own inability to perceive human-induced climate change, despite the objective changes that you could perceive (snow falls in Talgar, in the real world one might tell you about the eternal snows of the Kilimandjaro - there's an old french song with that title - that are not eternal anymore, or the passage of the North-West in Canada that is becoming a real thing) Of course in our case it's gonna happen much faster than 3000 years, but still to slow for us to react in time (the famous frog syndrome). And I guess slightly less dramatic than everything covered in ice.

That's really interesting indeed, and the frog syndrome means that we are so slow to react that we will only wear fur coat saying "Brr it's cold here" hahaha.

 

[Flare_TM]

Actually Ithlinne, even if she foresaw some things that didn't turn out to be true, the White Frost is one of them

I remember when Ciri was with the rats she had a dream of Geralt trudging through snow and ice searching for her, but I can't see how the climate change could come that quick.

Besides, it may be that the Frost could happen in Aen Elle world, who says that Ithlinne referred to human world for sure?

Perhaps of the snow falls in Talgar in mid-November

there is snow in the catchment area of Alba, where even a hundred years ago nobody had seen snow

The fact that these areas are starting to get snow and succumb to gradual climate change shows that the prophecy could well be referring to the Witcher world and not Aen Elle's.

 

[Sephira]

I remember when Ciri was with the rats she had a dream of Geralt trudging through snow and ice searching for her, but I can't see how the climate change could come that quick.

It was an illusion, yeah a dream, brought my Auberon's mirror, this part is included in Lady of the Lake, while Geralt was really searching for Castle Stygga, and he and his hansa were slowly walking through a snowstorm, it was full winter for them, but not for Ciri, who was in Tir na Lia.

The fact that these areas are starting to get snow and succumb to gradual climate change shows that the prophecy could well be referring to the Witcher world and not Aen Elle's.

Well, actually Talgar is famous for his winter, that begins on September and finish on May. So it was really an example. Alba's reference is instead the first clue about a climate change.