Level scaling ruins the game

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It's a knee jerk reaction to the change. People are resistant to change in general and it gets worse when it's change concerning something they like.

People simply hear level scaling and immediately go off because it's been done wrong many times before. I admit I was reluctant about it at first too because I've played games like TES: Oblivion in which level scaling completely ruins your sense of progression. Yet, here, when you take the time to analyse the change and adapt to them, it becomes clear that level scaling is not ruining the sense of progression at all. You will still be essentially a god amongst men in due time.
Tried it. Hated it. Uninstalled it for good.
It was shockingly bad and I don't hate myself enough to make attempts to get adapted to level scaling and whatever the hell was done to stealth netrunning.
It's got absolutely nothing to do with the game released 20 years ago.
 
exact opposite for me. played on hardest difficulty before and now I find it too easy, because everything is coming down to my level. from watson to center city to pacifica - it's all the same
and it's unrewarding, because all loot is my level.

no more big challenges for big rewards
there was never any challenge for big rewards. When the game first released many ppl made a bee line for the legendary smart rifle and cruised on easy mode. You could find these weapons easily at the lowest level. I decided at that point to stop using guns and just went straight stealth netrunning so I could have a challenge and this was on the hardest setting. There were ppl on youtube punching cyberpsychos to death. The game was definitely easier before, I think most ppl will agree on that. I can't recall fighting any battle for a specific high level reward
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It's a single player game published 2 years ago. Who gave the CDP rights to mess in game core, that was sold in a state like it was presented to me in a shop. This isn't mmo game that is constantly changing and players sign up for this, accepting specific terms of service. I feel that CDP wanted to break, and in fact they broke, some non-written rule, that a single-player game once sold must not be changed in it's core. Here a game core is for example the player scalling, that ruined fun for many, including myself. To this day I was thinking that such changes can be done only by the modders which aren't supported by creators. But nobody force to use mods. CDP also claim we aren't forced to use 2.0, we can stay without. Yeah but then we loose access to many really fine functionalities in 2.0, thus we cut off ourself of a lot of fun. Here CDP plays a modder god who can do anything. Why didn't they make 2.0 without scaling and messing in the core, they could leave it for another stand-alone patch. We'd have better way of choice. Their attitute doesn't seem right to me. I consider returning to previous version, but I'm undecided since some new functions are really good. This way or another I trusted CDP and even bought Liberty before installing 2.0, but then I lost much of this trust, CP2077 is no longer the same good game to me like it was for last months.
That's just a ridiculously bizarre statement. You make it sound like this is the hundredths change to the skill tree. It's one change mate. Even though I have my own issues with some changes they made, this is just disingenuous. You're right it's not an MMO. I played Diablo 4 this year and within the first month stats were being changed and every month that followed had a similar change or rework or rollback. This game has been out for years so you're making a huge reach
 
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Honestly, I think NPC scaling is the worst thing that ever happend to gaming. At all. Worse that microtransactions and loot boxes together.

NPC scaling is just lazy and it ruins games.

Pretty much all RPGs have player progression, and player progression means that the player character gets stronger over time. Gets better gear, learns better skills, new perks. And thats good, its a major driving element in RPGs. It gives you a purpose.

But player progression poses a problem for game design: If the player gets stronger then he will need stronger enemies, right? Lets call this the power level problem

The traditional solution to this problem is simply populating the game world with different groups of enemies, with a different power level, dwelling in different areas. Start the player in an easy area and let him make his way. That works really well. Its the way it was in CP until a week ago, and it did work pretty well.

Sure in open world games you have the problem that some players might take more optional content then others, thus getting stronger then other players at the same stage/ in the same area. In case of CP there was a certain lack of strong enemies and a surplus of weak enemies in late game, if you did everything. A minor issue, I just dialed up the difficulty mid game.

The lazy solution is just coupling the strength of NPCs to the strength of the player. On first glance it solves all problems. But on closer inspection it solves none, and creates a multitude of new problems.

1. It negates progression. If the player gets stronger and the NPCs get stronger as well, the player isn't really getting stronger. He might deal a higher damage, numerically, but the effect is still the same. The game cheats the player out of his progression. And that makes a large part of the game mechanics completly pointless.

Example 1: The last time I played Skyrim (2nd playthrough) I didn't got far. Maybe level 10? I had just leveled up, got a new fancy sword AND I had unlocked a perk for that sword. Awesome, right? So I went into the next dungeon. Same general style as the one before, same 'set' of enemies. Draughr. But literally every enemy had just been replaced with the next stronger iteration of them. A bit bigger, 50% more HP. Before I needed 10 hits to kill one, and now I again neeeded 10 hits to kill one. I never finished that dungeon. I stopped halfway through, and uninstalled a week later. Never touched it again.

2. It forces you to do silly meta games. Typically the NPC level is just bound to the player main level. Lazyness. But player main level isn't necessarrily bound to effective combat strength. That means, that in order for the player to actually get stronger, he needs to get stronger FOR THAT LEVEL. But if on the other hand the player makes progression choices that are not super rational, thought through, maybe out of role playing considerations... then the player will get weak FOR THAT LEVEL. And thats why NPC scaling doesnt actually solve the power level problem. A player thats not meta-gaming will soon find himself in a world were he is outleveled by anyone. A painstaking min-maxer will find himself getting stronger then anyone.

Example 2: Skyrim again, first playthrough. Somwhere around level 20 I started messing around with alchemy. Was nice, fun. Collecting ingredients, mixing them together, trying to create something usefull. Did this for a few hours, just for fun. But I leveled up while I did this. When I got back to work, into the next dungeon, I didn't stand a chance. All enemies were suddenly far stronger, because I was a higher level. I was outclassed. So I was forced to strike back. I took some time to study the skill tree, and finaly I closed the unholy trinity of crafting, alchemy and enchantment. Combining all three I crafted an echanted sword with 50 times more dps then any regular weapon. That big bad dragon in the end? One strike, dead. Made the whole game super boring, thats why I started a second playthrough.

In CP I started a new playthrough on thurstday, my V is now level 15.
I'm easily one-shooting NPCs with a silenced pistol. And I wont tell you how.

3. It ruins the ingame power plausibility. In the game there are NPCs that are supposed to be strong, and NPCS that are supposed to be weak. In a realistic setting you might at least argue that they are all humans, and a bullet to the head will kill every single one of them. But not so in a Cyberpunk setting. Here we have beings, merged from flesh and chrome, that can easily shrug of 10 headshots. Take Adam Smasher. This thing isn't human anymore, its a cybernetic one man army. Or at least it should be. But thanks to NPC scaling he is bound to your power level, so if you meet him early he'll be just weak. Laughable weak.
On the other hand if you meet a random small gangster towards the end of the game he'll be automatically super strong. Simply because you are.
It totaly breaks the immersion.

Example 3: Oblivion. Very early in game I came out of that capital, and on a crossing I was abushed by three bandits. Three pretty lame bandits, bad skills, bad eqippment, but it was 3 of them and I was level 2. Was a hard fight but i won.
A few weeks later I came to the exact same crossing, and I was ambushed by... three bandits. This time I was level 80 wearing full deadric armor. And so were the three bandits. Each of this bandits was stronger than an average deadric demi-god, wearing armor that was worth more than a small kingdom. Was a hard fight but i won. :shrug:


And that's why I hate NPC scaling.
Every word is true.
Plus, the level scaling also kill the joy of exploration, because won't find better loot, as your level.
 
+1 vote against level scaling. i want a story rpg and not darksouls. i want to grow from streetkid to legend and not feel like i'm useless at level 50.

V can jump out of Konpeki Plaza and handle Arasaka Military, but doesn't stand a chance against 3 Tiger Claw boys. Logic

If you're ok dealing with Arasaka Military I'm sure you'll be fine with 3 Tiger Claws too unless you rush in somewhere and get caught by several enemies at once without being able to find cover/heal properly, get caught by surprise as you're concentrating on something else or you've changed how you play and still adjusting. I've never played Dark Souls but I did play Nioh 2 for a short while and eventually beat a few bosses, left the game shortly after though because even though there's a great feeling at times getting past a bigger fight (so I can understand to an extent why people like those games) I didn't really see it as fun going through what I did to be able to eventually do that.

I haven't had that experience playing this at all on hard mode but maybe there's still some areas/bosses that I'll get stuck on seeing as previous play throughs that I completed the story with were on normal. Even though I haven't finished the story on hard mode though I have done a fair amount of things at this stage across multiple save files on hard because on normal mode it just felt like there wasn't enough of a challenge after a while. Of course sometimes I'll have more random deaths like from 3 Tiger Claws or something because I wasn't paying attention enough but it isn't what normally happens.
 
Plus, the level scaling also kill the joy of exploration, because won't find better loot, as your level.
Ok, I guess you didn't pay attention, but loot/items was already scalled to your level since release ;)
For example, except in some specific containers in main/side quests or on some enemies like bosses, you were able to find legendary stuff only after reaching level 35+ (epic > 25+, rare > 15+,...)
 
I've barely noticed the difference from level scaling. I have absolutely felt my character becoming stronger over time even with level scaling.

Hacking is fine for me on this third netrunner character and I'm 30+ hours in my new play through. I have 45+ netrunning, 17 Int, running tier 3 gear and 'ware. I haven't even done The Heist yet and I've got 37 street cred and I'm around level 18 or 19. If there were anything left in Watson to do I'd keep doing it until I could get my deck and programs to tier 4 for The Heist but all that's left are random spawn gang members. The maelstrom hideout was effortless. Jackie was crawling from cover to cover while I liquidated everyone with hacking except Royce.

Plenty of RPGs have horizontal growth instead of vertical growth. They're differently fun, but they're still fun.
 
It's a knee jerk reaction to the change. People are resistant to change in general and it gets worse when it's change concerning something they like.

People simply hear level scaling and immediately go off because it's been done wrong many times before. I admit I was reluctant about it at first too because I've played games like TES: Oblivion in which level scaling completely ruins your sense of progression. Yet, here, when you take the time to analyse the change and adapt to them, it becomes clear that level scaling is not ruining the sense of progression at all. You will still be essentially a god amongst men in due time.
Highlighted the important bit were most complainers fly off the handle. I find it curiously close to how this mimic real society these days.
 
I'd argue it's not just these days, this has always been an issue for people. It's always been easier to complain about change than to adapt to it.
That is definately true. I was more so making that statement with the specific "you have to work for it mentality"
I've read several threads about either the level-scaling or netrunning 'problem' and outside of verging on a mental meltdown, most of the complaints are centered around "I cant walk easystreet no more, Im required to use my brain now"
It is ofcourse also possible its so overt now.
 
Except you are stronger, you have skills no one else in the game has. You are taking on Max tac on your own, Arasaka on your own and now Dog Town. You quite literally are the strongest merc in Night City.

I'm sure there may be some valid criticism in there somewhere if you guys took the time to explain instead of just being contrarian with the most extreme takes. "Level Scaling RUINS the game"? Really...does it really ruin the entire game? Come on mates, lets do better.
Yeah exactly
 
There were a lot of complaints made before anyone really had time to try the new system. Reading them brought the irritable old man out in me and I made a snarky post I kind of regret now because it was unnecessary and I'm trying to put a sock in the irritable old man routine.
People vote with their feet. Both the base game and the expansion have been riding high in the steam top sellers list. In the most played section CP2077 and Baldur's Gate are battling it out with each other, one on top then the other(between the two of them).

I am very conscious of the fact that, no matter what you think of the changes, someone has worked hard to implement them. Every aspect of this game has seen some work. Many of my niggles and some of my 'I wants' have been addressed. As I am embarrassed by my snarky comments I hope others are equally embarrassed about some of their posts. We are all driven(I hope) by how much we love this game and we all want more out of it than we are going to get. The devs only have so much time left on this game before they move on to other titles. I get that this might make people panic a bit about changes they would like to see. I've said this before but it is obvious that the forums/social media are read by developers. They also watch us play. Honest constructive criticism is going to get the priority.

I also wonder about Witcher fans who are worried about the direction it's new iteration might take. I can understand this but the place for talking about that is in The Witcher forums but there, perhaps the snarky old man is creeping in. Giving that up is an ongoing process ;)

All in all I am very impressed with the new system. I have had some problems with it but mostly they have been caused by me not getting out of old habits. It does have its problems and not all the criticism I've read is unwarranted. The lighting system still has it's problems. I can see how some people would find the new system more restricting. I think it's more RPG but I can see the other point of view. Some things like armour and penetration I'm still thinking on.

Now ask me what I think of Phantom Liberty?
Dunno, I haven't got there yet been busy learning this new system. I can't be a jack of all trades anymore I have to think much more about how equipment, perks and cyberware compliment one another and how I am going to use them like I would in an RPG. But a lot of people have been saying its all more shooter/slasher orientated? Maybe we get what we look for?
I suspect a lot of people are busy experimenting with the new system.

Lastly I want to give a big fat thankyou to the developers because I can see a lot of work has gone into 2.0 on all fronts. I will let you know what I think of Phantom Liberty when I get there. I've been busy having my ass handed to me in Watson but I am getting there now. Turns out you can still be a bad ass. You just have to work a bit harder for it.
 
One can now hardly feel like a badass, wielding a gun like Comrade Hammer:
dmg on lvl 31, pre 2.0: 3268-3995 +2288-2797 +200% headshot +35% chance to ignite +more from tech perks.
Bullet could go through walls.

dmg on lvl 50, 2.0: 500,36 +40% chance to ignite +some more from tech perks.
Bullet no longer goes through walls (weird for a "badass" tech gun).

A huge difference.

Comrade Hammer Pre2.0.png

Comrade Hammer 2.0.png


PS. Screenshots from PL language version, but you know where the dmg stats.
 
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If you want to be OP again then just mod your toon... And give it times, soo enough we'll have a mod that allows 5+ weapon slots, they'll reintroduce all of the unique weapon mods and you can stack it to hell and back.
 
I never modded Cyberpunk before and do not intend to change that. I like to play vanilla games.

But there is one more weird thing about Comrade's Hammer.
A new note at the bottom, "when making Fast Attacks the gun automatically reloads."

I don't understand, magazine always had a single bullet, when I shot it always reloads automatically.
What are Fast Attacks and in what way it can benefit reloading?
 
Level scaling does ruin it for me. It makes the game all bland and there's no real feel of progression on the level plane. To quote Paul Hogan's depiction in 'Chuck Norris in Oblivion': stupid fu**ing level scaling!

It really is. The Oblivion community was bitching about it so much that some folks are still bitching about it. It is a 17 years old game! This in 2.0 isn't different.

A mod that undoes that abomination is worth to me as much as the whole game + phantom liberty. Period.
 
Level scaling does ruin it for me. It makes the game all bland and there's no real feel of progression on the level plane. To quote Paul Hogan's depiction in 'Chuck Norris in Oblivion': stupid fu**ing level scaling!

It really is. The Oblivion community was bitching about it so much that some folks are still bitching about it. It is a 17 years old game! This in 2.0 isn't different.

A mod that undoes that abomination is worth to me as much as the whole game + phantom liberty. Period.
Except that when you level up, you aquire more great abilities, more and better cyberwares... In short you become more and more powerful and not just with damages, also in the way you can kill enemies. So no matter if the enemies scale to your level, you really feel the progression, I would say, even more than before ;)
 
Except that when you level up, you aquire more great abilities, more and better cyberwares... In short you become more and more powerful and not just with damages, also in the way you can kill enemies. So no matter if the enemies scale to your level, you really feel the progression, I would say, even more than before ;)
I'm gonna agree here. Now I've been playing a little longer (I think I am level 17 or 18 now) with this Netrunner build I'm really feeling like Billy Badass compared to level 10.

I saved up crafting components and upgraded my OS to Tier 3 before T3 was available (it still isn't at ripperdocs). I've also upgraded all of my other hacking-related cyberware to T2+ or T3. This is my current skill layout (from memory, I might have one more point in the Queue Acceleration perk, I'm not sure, I know I don't have all 3 yet). I barely ever feel like I need to use Overclock, although I might do that more now I picked up the cyberware that allows me to use crits, at the cost of lowering my max RAM. Even so, I'm rocking 16 RAM so I've got plenty of options. T3 Contagion is ripping packs of enemies to shreds and I hold T3 Short Circuit back in case any of them do end up rushing in my direction.

I haven't used Lizzie or any other conventional weapon in ages; I've been 100% quickhack based for at least the last 5 hours of playtime. I also have no idea what people are on about who say netrunning was nerfed. Perhaps they made a mistake and played a different game?

Sure I can't 100% faceroll the game. I have to scout areas out, ping a few times and make sure all of the enemies are tagged. Then, I plan which ones I'm gonna' hack, in what order, and I always check for explosive objects which will let me thin the numbers out before I go overt. Hint for other netrunners. Blowing gas cylinders up in enemies' faces doesn't cause them to trace you, despite the loud explosion.
 
I explain what I mean, by "more than before" if I may :)

I'm currently level 30, it's been a little while since I upgraded my cyberwares and my stuff so indeed, enemies become stronger. Yes, because of level scalling, I begin to struggle a bit. But knowing that I'm able to install quite a few new cyberwares, upgrading cyberwares which I already have and upgrading my weapons, I will really feel the difference after doing so.

Before, at level 30, whatever perks you picked up, whatever cyberwares you installed or whatever weapons you used, you were able to destroy enemies as easily as before (and no need to talk about level 35 or above...).
 
Level scaling does ruin it for me. It makes the game all bland and there's no real feel of progression on the level plane. To quote Paul Hogan's depiction in 'Chuck Norris in Oblivion': stupid fu**ing level scaling!

It really is. The Oblivion community was bitching about it so much that some folks are still bitching about it. It is a 17 years old game! This in 2.0 isn't different.

A mod that undoes that abomination is worth to me as much as the whole game + phantom liberty. Period.

I started a new playthrough, trying giving 2.0 an honest chance.
And yes, the new skill tree and all that - I can get along with that.

But just waltzing into any part of town, never being outgunned? That feels tepid, takes the tension and danger out, and converts the game from an RPG with lore, motivation into a shooting gallery with interchangeable backgrounds.

That mod you mentioned? I'd even pay for it. No point in continuing or getting to PL until "level scaling" is fixed.
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That is definately true. I was more so making that statement with the specific "you have to work for it mentality"
I've read several threads about either the level-scaling or netrunning 'problem' and outside of verging on a mental meltdown, most of the complaints are centered around "I cant walk easystreet no more, Im required to use my brain now"
The complaint is about the opposite: It's all too *easy* now, no need to use different tactics, or come back later.
With level scaling, all the fights are about same difficulty.
 
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