Missed Ending - Merger

[koalahugs]

A quote from a woman who don't know or don't care about the Relic nor V... A quote about Hellman, who "invented" and "tested" the Relic himself and been involved in the whole process of the Relic creation/developpement from the very beginning.
In theory, if a man of science come to a deterministic conclusion based on his experience and observations, good chance he's right. And probably not the "woman" who say what you want to hear to get your help

To resume :

• On one side, a scientific who created the technology, follow the whole developpement of it and also examined V himself. A guy who have no real reason/interest to lie (even less reason to lie while a gun is pointed on him^^).
• On the other side, a woman who know nothing about this technology, know nothing about V's state and more importantly, desesperatly need V's help to retrieve Arasaka's control from Yorinobu's hands.

I guess you're free to believe whoever you want, but in my case, I chosen my side

I'm not gonna comment on the "merger" idea as I don't have an opinion on that either way, but I just wanted to respond to this @LeKill3rFou because - to be fair - just because a scientist makes a claim, doesn't necessarily mean it's an immutable fact. Hellman's just giving his opinion (regarding something that's essentially uncharted territory, btw). He's still a flawed human being affected by his own ego, hubris, biases, circumstances, etc.

And it's worth noting that scientists/doctors/academics often disagree with each other - it's not unusual. In some cases, you get ones who become so wedded to their ideas, especially when it's the thing that's made their career, that they just won't budge. That's why it's important to have "checks and balances" e.g. "peer review", regulatory oversight, etc. Again, because they're only human at the end of the day.

To put it into perspective, Einstein won the Nobel prize for physics for his work on the "photoelectric effect", something that was crucial in the development of quantum mechanics. Yet Einstein hated quantum mechanics. He was like, nah, the world doesn't work that way, "God does not play dice". Yet here we are using computers chatting over the Internet (thank QM for that).

So there ya go, one of the grand daddies of QM rejected QM, yet he was wrong.

Anyway, that's a bit of a tangent from me, but just felt the need to point it out because using the argument, "they're a scientist, therefore they must be correct" isn't a particularly compelling one. Also, pretty sure Hanako already knew about the Relic already.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Anyway, that's a bit of a tangent from me, but just felt the need to point it out because using the argument, "they're a scientist, therefore they must be correct" isn't a particularly compelling one. Also, pretty sure Hanako already knew about the Relic already.

That's why I said "great chances he's right", meaning that there is also a little chance he's wrong

In any case, I (which is just my opinion) would tend to put more credit to wors of the project supervisor himself rather than anyone else. Above all, like I said, more than a woman who desperately need V's help (V point out in the Sunset Motel, that she's alone and not in position to ask/impose conditions^^) and ready to say whatever V want to hear, to get V's help.

And at the end, Hellman wasn't really wrong... If V stay in the body, V will die no matter what. So his proposal to send V to a clinic to ease his terminally ill sentence was not out of place.

 

[Nahoward]

That's why V will die under 6 months if shes stay in her body, why Johnny will live if he take the body, why Arasaka is unable to provide a suitable body to V soon enough and why Saburo can take Yorinobu's body (his son).

I understood the Saburo taking over Yorinobu as the relic doing exactly what it was designed to do, and what would happen to V if the process wasn't interrupted... since she'd eventually wake up as Johnny. V got screwed over in the Arasaka ending because allegedly her DNA is really messed up so the body will never work out... but I'm not sure how much of the Arasaka ending is people being truthful... instead of Arasaka putting a lid on a failed experiment and moving on.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

V got screwed over in the Arasaka ending because allegedly her DNA is really messed up so the body will never work out... but I'm not sure how much of the Arasaka ending is people being truthful...

Not "only" Arasaka ending. Alt have the same words or almost in other endings.
Something like that, from memories > "Due to the alteration of the DNA by the Relic, the body is no longer V's. It's now Johnny's body"
So if two "persons" (if we consider Alt as a person) which have nothing to do with each other, end to pretty much the same conclusion/ascertainment. It seem to me that both are most probably right

 

[Nahoward]

Also plays into how much of the relic is ROM vs firmware. Firmware can be rewritten... ROM cannot, and it's unclear if possible to alter the DNA target of the relic to match the V engram now on it. The thinking with a merger, however, is that enough aspects of Johnny's DNA would allow for body stability, while the memories would be from both lives merged as a single entity with the personality being comprised of aspects of both.

Y'know... there might be a future plot point around the Mikoshi captives wanting to be human again, and Alt using the information gleaned from V's relic to give them back their humanity. I don't know if the Alt AI would be willing to let them go, but figuring out V's situation and getting the body to be stable would be a first step on that path so only those people willing to stay with Alt would do so.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Also plays into how much of the relic is ROM vs firmware. Firmware can be rewritten... ROM cannot, and it's unclear if possible to alter the DNA target of the relic to match the V engram now on it. The thinking with a merger, however, is that enough aspects of Johnny's DNA would allow for body stability, while the memories would be from both lives merged as a single entity with the personality being comprised of aspects of both.

Quite vague in the game.
I could be wrong, but I think it's the nanites. Could nanites be reprogrammed or not... no idea (the answer is probably among the 80% of the Relic documentation which are unreadable, convenient^^). At least, Arasaka can't nor Alt (one of the best netrunner ever, who wrote the original version of Soulkiller).

I don't know if the Alt AI would be willing to let them go, but figuring out V's situation and getting the body to be stable would be a first step on that path so only those people willing to stay with Alt would do so.

Not sure she would
If I remember, engrams that she "take" by destroying Mikoshi "will become something greater". No idea what it mean or if it's even possible to an human to understand what's about.
At least according to Johnny, it's not like if these engrams could expect better anyway

 

[MartineDee]

A quote from a woman who don't know or don't care about the Relic nor V... A quote about Hellman, who "invented" and "tested" the Relic himself and been involved in the whole process of the Relic creation/developpement from the very beginning.

See, Hellman would have also said something that keeps V close to Arasaka/feeling dependent even if he saw any other possibility, especially since at the moment he didn't know who will be his next master. Knowledge is power, why share it for free. Don't trust everything you're told, double-check.

 

[Netrunner2go]

See, Hellman would have also said something that keeps V close to Arasaka/feeling dependent even if he saw any other possibility, especially since at the moment he didn't know who will be his next master. Knowledge is power, why share it for free. Don't trust everything you're told, double-check.

just stop trying - we are all wrong, only he is right. always was, always will be. - V will die no matter what, until PL proofs otherwise

 

[LeKill3rFou]

See, Hellman would have also said something that keeps V close to Arasaka/feeling dependent even if he saw any other possibility, especially since at the moment he didn't know who will be his next master. Knowledge is power, why share it for free. Don't trust everything you're told, double-check.

What do you mean ?
That Hellman could "lie" or say something that V want to hear ?
It's just my opinion, but :
- At the beginning of the discussion, hellman say that if Arasaka find them, they're both dead. And if V is not sent by Arasaka they can "talk". So at first, he have no intention to return to Arasaka.
- If Hellman want to "keep V close", there are better things to say than "Sorry, you'll die no matter what" or "Sorry, I can't help".
- And even when Hellman asks V to come with him to Kang Tao to "try" to help her, he immediately admits that it's to save the invaluable" data (even Johnny can't believe he's so stupid^^).
But that's just me

 

[koalahugs]

What do you mean ?
That Hellman could "lie" or say something that V want to hear ?
It's just my opinion, but :
- At the beginning of the discussion, hellman say that if Arasaka find them, they're both dead. And if V is not sent by Arasaka they can "talk". So at first, he have no intention to return to Arasaka.
- If Hellman want to "keep V close", there are better things to say than "Sorry, you'll die no matter what" or "Sorry, I can't help".
- And even when Hellman asks V to come with him to Kang Tao to "try" to help her, he immediately admits that it's to save the invaluable" data (even Johnny can't believe he's so stupid^^).
But that's just me

I don't agree that Hellman was lieing either - I'm with you on that - in fact I think he BELIEVED in the prognosis he was giving. However I think you're being overly simplistic in describing Hanako as just a "desperate woman" and Hellman as just a scientist. For one thing, Hellman is easily the more desperate of the two. EASILY. Hanako is a major player pulling strings on the board. Don't misunderstand me: I'm not disputing Hanako's capacity for manipulation - I agree with that - I just mean that "desperate woman" is really reductive. Hanako indeed plays V, but she's canny and does that from a position of power, not of desperation.

Anyway, back to Hellman. While I appreciate the man's expertise, I think you're still ignoring the fact that he's still human. And actually it's an aspect of his characterisation that I think the writers pulled off REALLY well. Why do I think that? Well, first consider the circumstances: Yorinobu stole the prototype (that's stressful for Hellman); he's running away from Arasaka (stressful); he's been shot out of the sky (stressful); now he's been kidnapped (STRESSFUL).

Given those circumstances, what do you think that's going to do to Hellman's mental state? He's going to be stressed. Obviously. He's going to be TURTLED UP. He's going to be mentally guarded, more resistant, less open, and absolutely no where near the right mindset to be able to come up with creative solutions to difficult problems (OTHER than the problem he's currently dealing with: trying to escape). To put it simply: he's in a bit of a shit mood and has his own self-interests.

Which is why Hellman is so cynical at the motel and so quick to shoot down any possibility of removing the Relic (I mean, have you never met a dismissive doctor in real life, in contrast to all the other doctors with a can-do attitude who are far more receptive and actually make progress with you?). Instinctively, the guy wanted to get out of that motel as fast as possible. So he cooperated, had a quick look, gave a prognosis, and when that failed, he offered the blueprints. The guy was not going to come up with a solution unless he was either: a) in an agreeable, can-do, enthusiastic mood; or b) if the only solution to HIS problem, was fixing V's problem.

And let's be clear about what his prognosis actually was, because it wasn't the 6 month thing - he had absolutely zero idea about that; that was a completely unforseen complication that he hadn't even considered yet. No, his prognosis was on whether or not the chip could even be removed without immediately killing V. His belief was basically, "nope, can't be done." And I think he absolutely believed what he was saying - at the time. But that doesn't mean he was right - and in the end he wasn't... Again, don't confuse the 6 month thing with what he was actually referring to at the motel. Hellman was basically just confirming what Vik already told you: that if you remove the chip you'll die immediately. I think it's pretty obvious that that's what he meant. And it was his opinion that there was zero solution to this - THAT's what Hellman was wrong about. Again, he did not predict the 6 month thing (nor did Vik, nor Alt, for that matter). And btw, he probably updated his view if you went with the Devil ending (presumably because the solution to his problem became fixing V's problem - ergo V's surgery in space)...

So, there's a bit of nuance there, IMO. Which is why I think the way they handled Hellman was pretty good writing from CDPR - it's such a good reflection of how people like that can behave under different pressures and circumstances. Although I still think they created a plot hole with the blueprints V did nothing with.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

For one thing, Hellman is easily the more desperate of the two. EASILY. Hanako is a major player pulling strings on the board. Don't misunderstand me: I'm not disputing Hanako's capacity for manipulation - I agree with that - I just mean that "desperate woman" is really reductive. Hanako indeed plays V, but she's canny and does that from a position of power, not of desperation.

In fact, "desesperate" maybe wasn't the right word. Indeed Hanako is a 70 years old woman, who is used to swim in a sea of sharks
But what I meant it's she really (I mean, really^^) need V's help... Several things point it out (for me).
First, she contact V right by herself... Hanako Arasaka who contact a simple merc, herself, it's quite surprising and probably not usual. Then, during the dialogue in the Sunset Motel, when she say that V "must" help her first, there is two options (+ one corpo, not sure)

• The first option : V agree "nicely".
• The second one is like that : Making demands ? You're not in position. You're here because you're alone. You only have me to count on!

And Hanako didn't even negociate and answer : Ok, I admit... So what's your conditions ?
I mean, come one... the emperor daughter who "receive" order from a "simple" merc, it doesn't have to happen often and she must not be used to being spoken to like this.
So she's really, really need V's help (almost "desesperately^^), more than she shows and make believe

The guy was not going to come up with a solution unless he was either: a) in an agreeable, can-do, enthusiastic mood; or b) if the only solution to HIS problem, was fixing V's problem.

But in the Devil ending, he's no longer "stressed" (I think) when he takes V to the elevator to "try" to help him. But it doesn't find any better solution later...

And let's be clear about what his prognosis actually was, because it wasn't the 6 month thing - he had absolutely zero idea about that; that was a completely unforseen complication that he hadn't even considered yet. No, his prognosis was on whether or not the chip could even be removed without immediately killing V. His belief was basically, "nope, can't be done." And I think he absolutely believed what he was saying - at the time. But that doesn't mean he was right - and in the end he wasn't... Again, don't confuse the 6 month thing with what he was actually referring to at the motel. Hellman was basically just confirming what Vik already told you: that if you remove the chip you'll die immediately. I think it's pretty obvious that that's what he meant. And it was his opinion that there was zero solution to this - THAT's what Hellman was wrong about. Again, he did not predict the 6 month thing (nor did Vik, nor Alt, for that matter). And btw, he probably updated his view if you went with the Devil ending (presumably because the solution to his problem became fixing V's problem - ergo V's surgery in space)...

Yeah, I agree it was about the progression of the "Relic job" and a way to stop it. And neither Hellman or Alt (I'll avoid speaking about Viktor, because as he said, it's way above his knowledge/skills^^) predicted that the "body" will be irretrievably changed and accept only the consciousness which is on the Relic (according to Alt, due to the DNA alteration).

 

[MartineDee]

What do you mean ?

See, sometimes people say only part of the truth in order to manipulate the other person's actions.

Hellman must have been aware that Arasaka might reacquire him, so any information he shared with V might have had less of a value once Arasaka came to collect their due, which is an additional motivation for Hellman to hold back on anything that might help him prove himself still valuable to be kept alive and else to remain in good standing at Arasaka corp.

Altogether, Hellman has all kinds of reasons not to be honest with V in that and any other conversation, and to funnel them (V) toward Arasaka as a material 'proof of concept' for whatever they wanted to create for Saburo.

The longer I think of it, the Rebel Path's raid of the Arasaka tower and the takedown of the Arasaka corp feel more and more satisfying, the more I grasp the whole story. V was cornered, and that unleashed the beast. V can be so much more than the game shows. Adam Smasher can look like a plushie compared to V's prospect. It must be more than coincidence that V seems to have a plushie that matches Adam's description. I love the Rebel Path secret ending.

But ending the game there is a downer. V has come to their apex, ready for another exponential jump upwards and what ... curtains down? That's bitter.