Poison and Harmony

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Thanks and Respect for replying politely and on point!
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I should, but I appreciate the gesture.
I believe that you mean WaterOfBrokilon as the non-brickable Portal. If that is the case, you are massively overlooking one aspect. Portal is used for thinning the deck where as WoB is not. With portal you have effectively played 3 cards in total, but with WoB you have played only one card. Double WoB by Francesca is scary, I agree. Water is a 11 provision card which brings two engines and 8 points on board. Water on its own is good and just and fine (as most of the times, one of the engines is killed the next turn and the other, the next turn after that). It is the double water that is powerful. I don't know what could be the solution. CoF, if it is just play any ST unit (without the +2 boost), it should then be 9 or less provisions, otherwise, it is just a horrible Decree. Personally I feel that CoF is good as it is. It is Francesca who makes these good cards seem broken. Lets wait and see what CDPR does to her this month end.
Portal is mostly used as a power card to enable 2 engines at once, of course you are right that you can thin, however Portal forces you to give up on mulligan value, 4 provision filler cards and in case you want to re-use it you have to live with unreliable results on it.
If Portal would be on par, why do Fran players not run Portal with Fledgelings ?
(If not instead, why not as well ?)
They do not because they get the power without the disadvantages and giving up on that many mulligans, while not being able to use 4 provision cards (like Agitator), as well as it being less reliable is just not desirable.
Edit: I am quite positive the advantage in deckbuilding and of being able to fully use one's mulligans more than outweight the thinning of Portal.
(Not to mention those power plays being far more consistent)

Now for the second card that I called a better Portal (Novigradian Justice).
Justice does not pull randomly, so it does not restrict one's lineup, can hit incredibly strong engines in Mercenary and Defender, as well as a non-synergy 10 point play in Marauder or Cleaver's Muscle (which also adds 2 Dwarf bodies for Zoltan synergy etc).
Justice is also almost unbrickable, given the fact that in the worst case it can fetch any bronze, which is a waste I admit, however better than just pulling a single 4 provision card in case you mulliganed into one of its targets.
Justice also only pulls one of the copies (so copying it can pull the second copy) and triggers deploy abilities (unlike Portal).

I also stated that being able to get a third card of that caliber with the leader is just too much.
Those 2 cards themselves are already incredibly strong, however being able to get even more than that (as well as 2 Justices in 1 turn to pull 4 Mercenaries/Defenders (to turn on with Cranmer) at the start of a round or 2 Fledgelings before playing a trigger on the harmony to make them resistant against 4 damage cards) is clearly too much.

Call of the Forest could go down to giving a 1 point boost, I feel that the Nature tag alone is almost enough to make it better than Decree though, given that Fauve is a must have anyways, given that Fauve has amazing targets and being targetable by that is quite good.
Even if there were no boost, as long as Fran can hit it it is pretty ludicrous, although the reason that Fran is ludicrous was mentioned above.

The game got a lot of targets (2) for Fran that are on the edge of too good (they are by themselves fine, but very very good) and being able to use those again and even chain them to themselves (or in the case of Water before a harmony trigger) is just absurd.
I do not want Justice or Waters getting nerfed, but if Fran continues to be able to pull them they have to get nerfed.

I hope that this made my position clear, if you disagree feel free to tell me where you assume/think I am wrong.
 
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Waters could go back to require a dryad on board in order to spawn two fledglings
That makes it less consistent, but not less good.
And with the amount of Dryads not a whole lot.
Beyond that the Fran interaction would not be any less toxic.
The change to not require that was all things considered a good change.
Edit: If Fran gets nerfed enough to no longer be a toxic leader (i.e. not being able to access Justice or Waters) there is no reason to try and tear Waters apart.
 
i yearn for the game to have one month where there isn't one over-riding, mind-numbingly boring deck.

[ . . . ] I feel sorry for CDPR who get blamed when in reality it's the user base spoling the game.

Moderator's Note: please, do not insult players
 
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Main problem with francesca is that you can play the same very strong card twice ( 2 engines in one turn, creates a lot of pressure and wins games if unanswered). Look at leaders with similiar abilities like cleaver, calanthe or calveit. They all allow you to play 2 cards in one turn, but with a difference, they dont create a duplicate of cards. They just pull and play cards from your deck.

I do think that francesca should work the same way, she should be pulling special cards (preferably nature) from the deck and NOT creating copies. She should be just fine even with 15 provisions that way.


One might say: ,,Oh, but emhyr can replay a card too,,
Yes he can, but he doesnt create a copy of it, he effectively removes a card from the board ( you loose some value) and allows you to play it again. He is being used for deploy abilities not for engines. So its not the same.
 
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ST is overtuned, Willow, Ranger and some other cards are overtuned, I am not saying by much, however a 1 provision/point nerf would sound only fair, given their power level.
Also I did see a lot of Brouver as well, not as many as Fran and that one is not even remotely as toxic as Fran, however it should still be pretty clear that a few cards in ST are overtuned.
Willow, the Decree on Crack and Dryad Ranger are the most obvious ones, however if those 3 would be hit, alongside Fran, the faction should be perfectly fine.

Edit: Also the fact that ST is the only faction that does not need Portal, because it has non-brickable versions of that (and 2 at that), should already be a sign that something is wrong.

ST doesn't use portal because it doesn't have (aside from swordmaster) a variety of 4p bronze engines to choose from, nor it needs to thin to zero cards. Most of its 4p cards are deploy effects (boost and damage) which lose value when summoned by it. You see portal in NG, NR and SY because they have all the good 4p engine cards. Monsters and Skellige don't use portal often too. So, ST can't utilise a neutral card as effectively as some other factions. Does that mean anything? No. IMO, portal is a problematic card, so your conclusion doesn't make sense for me either way.

Aside from Fran harmony, there isn't another tier 1 ST deck this season and it was uncompetitive for many (so I guess it was Scoia's turn?). Dana is a worse version of Fran harmony decks right now (which shows bad design) and all the other ST leaders are mediocre (Eithne, Brouver) or just trash (Fila, Eldain). Replaying waters of Brokilon and spawning 4 engines in one turn is the broken thing with Fran and not call of the forest (which is a slightly better royal decree). Before this patch you had to have a dryad on board to spawn two fledglings with waters. Buffing Fran from 13p to 15p was the other obvious mistake.

I can point out many overtuned cards each faction has, but nerfing to oblivion every good card of them isn't the only remedy against netdecking and strong meta decks. IMO, CDPR should first rework the leaders, by creating an even bigger gap between their provisions cap (most of them are between the 15-16p range) and maybe rework the abilities to some of them.
 
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Aside from Fran harmony, there isn't another tier 1 ST deck this season and it was uncompetitive for many (so I guess it was Scoia's turn?). Dana is a worse version of Fran harmony decks right now (which shows bad design) and all the other ST leaders are mediocre (Eithne, Brouver) or just trash (Fila, Eldain). Replaying waters of Brokilon and spawning 4 engines in one turn is the broken thing with Fran and not call of the forest (which is a slightly better royal decree). Before this patch you had to have a dryad on board to spawn two fledglings with waters. Buffing Fran from 13p to 15p was the other obvious mistake.
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You think not requiring a Dryad on Waters and a 2 provision buff on Fran were the problem ?
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I can point out many overtuned cards each faction has,
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Distributing poison, while having the engine keyword harmony is problematic nevertheless.
I still think Willow should definitely be nerfed (a 6 point engine body also distributing poison, with an almost unique category, for 7 provisions is just absurd).
Dryad Ranger should propably also be nerfed (if nothing else by 1 point or 1 provision).

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IMO, CDPR should first rework the leaders, by creating an even bigger gap between their provisions cap (most of them are between the 15-16p range) and maybe rework the abilities to some of them.
I agree, the small provision gaps are hardly enough to balance the power gaps between these leaders.
Fran should be completely reworked in either case though.
Edit: And possibly Filavandrel too, it would be nice if that leader was at least on par with the other (non-broken) leaders.
 
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You think not requiring a Dryad on Waters and a 2 provision buff on Fran were the problem ?

Yes, because having 4 harmony engines (fledglings) in a single turn with Fran's ability, makes a huge difference. A good example for it are the Dana decks which are way more balanced in harmony ticks and they use the exact same cards. That's why portal which you've mentioned above make the difference in other factions with all this removal around (2 cheap engines in a single turn, plus thinning). Without this change (waters requirement) and the Fran buff, all 2 (or max 3) fledglings would be removed in 1 or 2 turns by Calanthe, Ardal and some other decks. Now harmony decks overwhelm you, like some Calanthe heavy engine decks overwhelm you. Im not gonna write here my own fantastical patch notes for every overtuned card of each faction though (waste of time). I'm just pointing out a huge difference IMO in Fran's dominance from this patch. Now, if you wish that they should nerf every other good card ST has, that's another story.
 
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Aside from Fran harmony, there isn't another tier 1 ST deck this season and it was uncompetitive for many (so I guess it was Scoia's turn?). Dana is a worse version of Fran harmony decks right now (which shows bad design) and all the other ST leaders are mediocre (Eithne, Brouver) or just trash (Fila, Eldain).
Oh come on, we all know that if Fran is nerfed badly everyone will switch to Dana, which is just a notch worse than the current Fran. It will still be among the best decks out there.
I don't understand why people complain about Fran that much, the issue is the too many synergies that hardly brick in ST. Heck, I've even seen Eithne decks running almost the same lineups as Fran with added scorch for flavour.
 
Oh come on, we all know that if Fran is nerfed badly everyone will switch to Dana, which is just a notch worse than the current Fran. It will still be among the best decks out there.
I don't understand why people complain about Fran that much, the issue is the too many synergies that hardly brick in ST. Heck, I've even seen Eithne decks running almost the same lineups as Fran with added scorch for flavour.

ST players might switch to Dana or Eithne. Netdeckers will switch to the next broken deck of the upcoming armor / defender update.
 
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Oh come on, we all know that if Fran is nerfed badly everyone will switch to Dana, which is just a notch worse than the current Fran. It will still be among the best decks out there.
I don't understand why people complain about Fran that much, the issue is the too many synergies that hardly brick in ST. Heck, I've even seen Eithne decks running almost the same lineups as Fran with added scorch for flavour.
Dana only has 2 instances of Waters/Justice, not a third, unlike Fran.

Yes, because having 4 harmony engines (fledglings) in a single turn with Fran's ability, makes a huge difference. A good example for it are the Dana decks which are way more balanced in harmony ticks and they use the exact same cards. That's why portal which you've mentioned above make the difference in other factions with all this removal around (2 cheap engines in a single turn, plus thinning). Without this change (waters requirement) and the Fran buff, all 2 (or max 3) fledglings would be removed in 1 or 2 turns by Calanthe, Ardal and some other decks. Now harmony decks overwhelm you, like some Calanthe heavy engine decks overwhelm you. Im not gonna write here my own fantastical patch notes for every overtuned card of each faction though (waste of time). I'm just pointing out a huge difference IMO in Fran's dominance from this patch. Now, if you wish that they should nerf every other good card ST has, that's another story.
I disagree, Fauve allows to do just the same, all you would do would be to force Fauve to lead into that, which cuts the connsistency a bit, however does not change anything about Fran being busted.

I am saying the changes to Weeping Willow left it overtuned, the same goes for Call.
Dryad Ranger is heavily up to debate I will admit.
Fran's dominance comes from the buff on Willow, Call and the fact that Franchesca into Waters/Justice is broken.
Waters and Justice are by themselves fine, however being able to get even more instances and overlay them is just broken.
 
Dana only has 2 instances of Waters/Justice, not a third, unlike Fran.

Fran's dominance comes from the buff on Willow, Call and the fact that Franchesca into Waters/Justice is broken.
Waters and Justice are by themselves fine, however being able to get even more instances and overlay them is just broken.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but let's assume Fran uses her ability for waters in R3. That will net you average of 16 points (assuming the opponent does not react to the fledglings and they grow to 8 points) and 2 bodies, so let's say 2 more points for the oak. 18 points for leader ability is not busted, yes it's a lot but not busted. The ST cards and units are busted, not the leader ability.
 
Fran's leader ability is strong no matter what, like Eithne's (she had the same ability as Fran now) in beta was strong regardless of how good or bad ST cards were. Replaying scorch, muzzle, old mandrake or old artifact compression could shutdown many decks back then. That's why they restricted her to ST only specials now. Buffing her provisions is a big no, no though. Lower her provisions and you're going to see as much Fran as you saw before 2 seasons ago (which was rarely). That's the difference in homecoming gwent. You can weaken leaders by changing their provisions cap without nerfing half the faction.
 
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Fran's leader ability is strong no matter what, like Eithne's (she had the same ability as Fran now) in beta was strong regardless of how good or bad ST cards were. Replaying scorch, muzzle, old mandrake or old artifact compression could shutdown many decks back then. That's why they restricted her to ST only specials now. Buffing her provisions is a big no, no though. Lower her provisions and you're going to see as much Fran as you saw before 2 seasons ago (which was rarely). That's the difference in homecoming gwent. You can weaken leaders by changing their provisions cap without nerfing half the faction.
Taking 2 provisions away will lead into replacing a 6 provision card with a 4 provision card and just continuing as before.
Of course one can balance leaders with provisions, however a mere 2 provision nerf does not turn a busted leader into a balanced one.
One Half-Elf Hunter/Hawker Smuggler will be downgraded to a Dryad's Caress or something like that and nothing else will change.
 
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rrc

Forum veteran
Taking 2 provisions away will lead into replacing a 6 provision card with a 4 provision card and just continuing as before.
Of course one can balance leaders with provisions, however a mere 2 provision nerf does not turn a busted leader into a balanced one.
So, you basically want to have her ability changed or get some 10 provisions or so, so that she becomes unplayable? If that happens you would be OK with the three strong cards ST have (Water, Justice, Call)?

I don't agree with you on WeepingWillow or DryadRanger is OP or strong and it is OK; we can have disagreement. They are just good cards (and I think DryadRanger is a bad card) which were made playable just a month back and I don't want to send them back to dustbin by nerfing them.
 
Dijkstra was a strong leader in itself with a singular broken combo. Fran is the complete opposite. The +2 provisions doesn't make her OP and she doesn't have a singular broken combo (though, double Waters is strong). No, with Fran, it's about the total package and flexibility it brings (with regards to the tweaks made to Poison and Harmony). The whole package needs to be tuned down, instead of nerfing one or two cards. For starters, Fran needs -1 provision and CotF needs -1 buff.

On a side note, if replaying a card in the same round is a problem (not just with Fran, but also Eist, for example), you could introduce a fatigue mechanic and either give the tag to problematic cards (e.g. Waters) or to the caster (e.g. Fran). The tag would prevent replaying the same card in the same round. Having fatigue on Fran encourages deck diversity and prevents (potential) broken combos in the future.
 
Dijkstra was a strong leader in itself with a singular broken combo. Fran is the complete opposite. The +2 provisions doesn't make her OP and she doesn't have a singular broken combo (though, double Waters is strong). No, with Fran, it's about the total package and flexibility it brings (with regards to the tweaks made to Poison and Harmony). The whole package needs to be tuned down, instead of nerfing one or two cards. For starters, Fran needs -1 provision and CotF needs -1 buff.

On a side note, if replaying a card in the same round is a problem (not just with Fran, but also Eist, for example), you could introduce a fatigue mechanic and either give the tag to problematic cards (e.g. Waters) or to the caster (e.g. Fran). The tag would prevent replaying the same card in the same round. Having fatigue on Fran encourages deck diversity and prevents (potential) broken combos in the future.
Fran is OP right now. We all agree. IMO she's not as broken as DJ and Foltest was last patch, but nevermind that. The main problem about her for me is that except from the +2p buff, she's also got buffed ST special cards. Call of the forest was ok and was a unique and niche card design-wise as it was previously and waters of Brokilon required a tutor (Fauve) or at least a dryad on the board to spawn 2 fledglings. Now, if they're gonna nerf the whole package (as you say), which is the only viable "archetype" of ST (harmony), you surely understand that this affects another leader who isn't broken? (Dana) So are we all ok to butcher 2 leaders of a faction and half of its good cards just to punish one deck?
 
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Fran is OP right now. We all agree. IMO she's not as broken as DJ and Foltest was last patch, but nevermind that. The main problem about her for me is that except from the +2p buff she's also got buffed special ST cards. Call of the forest was ok and was a unique and niche card design-wise as it was previously and waters of Brokilon required a tutor (Fauve) or at least a dryad on the board to spawn 2 fledglings. Now if they're gonna nerf the whole viable "archetype" of ST which is harmony, you understand that this affects another leader, Dana. So are we all ok to butcher 2 leaders of a faction and half its good cards just to punish one deck?
Willow is definitely too strong, having poison and harmony and still 6 strenght for 7 provisions is just too much.
I am not saying the card should get butchered, I am saying the card should at the very least get a 1 point or 1 provision nerf and we see afterwards if it is fine.
Waters is a completely fine card outside of Fran, which leads to the obvious solution, this has nothing to do with nerfing Dana.
On the contrary, I suggest leaving Justice and Waters alone.
Dryad Ranger, Weeping Willow and Call of the Forest are overtuned (although not by very much).
Francesca on the other hand is a general problem and nerfing all Scoiatael Special Cards, which are fine with other leaders, is in no way advisable.
Fran is by construction limiting the options of acceptable Scoiatael Special cards, which is limiting cards, which, in the hands of the other leaders, would be fine.
 
@InkognitoXI One question for you. Can you answer me plz, why Fran is better than Dana when they are basically playing the same cards and supporting the same archetype (harmony)?
 
@InkognitoXI One question for you. Can you answer me plz, why Fran is better than Dana when they are basically playing the same cards and supporting the same archetype (harmony)?
Because Dana accesses a card you have access to anyways, it makes a power card more consistent.
Fran is able to create a copy of a power card and give you a second use on a card that is designed to be once per game.
Dana has access to 1 Justice and 1 Waters.
Fran has access to 1 Justice, 1 Waters and an additional copy of the one you want.
Those cards have high provision cost, however aim somewhat above what that provision cost is worth, which is fine for a central staple, which by construction is already a once per game thing.
 
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