Proper fix for coin flip balance.

[magecutter]

personally I think it's fine just the way it is.

playing first "can" be a disadvantage but in no way game breaking or a guaranteed loss.

both players 'share' the first play disadvantage depending on who wins the round.

if I play woodland spirit R1 / T1 that's a 16 point one card play. then riders for more deck thinning and 25 points total and only 2 hand cards played (an extreme example and obviously many counters to it) then I pass and my opponent has the option to keep playing to win the round or pass with a card advantage. if I win I start the next round and am "down" a card for the remainder of that round. seems fair to me.
(if my opponent keeps playing to win the round they will likely have enough points to push the second or pass the second to gain a card and try to win the third).

less extreme and more common is simple deck thinning and/or strategy building for rounds 2 and 3. but at some point someone will pass to keep a card advantage no matter who went first.

most good players will keep an 'ace in the hole/will prolly win the match with this'... last play card in their hand anyway. just smart game play.

worrying about a Toot / D'bomb situation or something similar is just part of the game and and not in need of some fix. many times either my opponent or I will be down 1 or 2 cards but have enough points on the board to win the match and card parity isn't even an issue.

TLDR: it ain't broke, nothing to fix

 

[alexandrecarlos]

Sugestion for balancing the first round

Well everyone know that who play first is at disadvantage, a good way to try balancing it would be to make a special rule that if the player that play first on the first round win the round the oponent starts the second round.

 

[4RM3D]

Well everyone know that who play first is at disadvantage

Usually, but not always.

a good way to try balancing it would be to make a special rule that if the player that play first on the first round win the round the oponent starts the second round.

That will kill the Scoia'tael passive ability.


EDIT: another thread about the Coin Flip discussion: http://forums.cdprojektred.com/foru...s-aa/7812550-proper-fix-for-coin-flip-balance

 

[RickMelethron]

the only real way to balance this is by giving some strength buff to who goes first... losing when you go first can be devastating to card advantage, but if you just give them extra cards, the whole thing becomes even more broken.

maybe an extra mulligan might help.

 

[SzymonAtan]

Well everyone know that who play first is at disadvantage

Everybody knew the Earth is the center of Universe, but then evidence came. Do you have any clue pointing towards significant win-ratio discrepancy depending on going 1st vs going 2nd?

 

[RickMelethron]

Do you have any clue pointing towards significant win-ratio discrepancy depending on going 1st vs going 2nd?

going first is objectively a disadvantage in gwent... there's no possible argument anyone can make against it.
if you go first, your opponent will always have the opportunity to responde to your plays, as well as having the benefit of playing the last card (which can be amazing when that last card is a weather effect, for instance)

the whole concept of the ST passive is based on making your opponent go first to have an advantage... and it's considered by most people as the most powerful passive of all factions. even above the extra mulligans of NG, the strength increase of SK, and the free adrenaline rush of MO.

 

[4RM3D]

going first is objectively a disadvantage in gwent... there's no possible argument anyone can make against it.

Going first with an ambush deck to prevent Nekkers.
Going first in an SK discard mirror match and get the first strike with Longships.
Going first with Crones and pass with CA.

I am not saying there aren't better tactics. But going first can bring a small advantage in some cases.

 

[RickMelethron]

Going first with an ambush deck to prevent Nekkers.

it will kill the first one, but another will immediately take its place.

Going first in an SK discard mirror match and get the first strike with Longships.

and then you get thundered

Going first with Crones and pass with CA.

why do you have to go first for that? in fact, if you go second it's even better since the opponent has already played the first card; if you do it going first, the opponent can just choose to pass before playing any cards and keeping the advantage.

 

[4RM3D]

it will kill the first one, but another will immediately take its place.

Nekkers never hit the board and don't trigger their death effect. This may have been changed, though. I haven't checked it recently.

and then you get thundered

...and ressed. Not that many discard decks run with Thunder.

why do you have to go first for that? in fact, if you go second it's even better since the opponent has already played the first card; if you do it going first, the opponent can just choose to pass before playing any cards and keeping the advantage.

If you are first and you play Crones first, you'll have a big board advantage. If the player passes you'll lose CA in favor of winning the round. Which is still okay because you went first.
If you are 2nd and you play Crones first after the opponent played a unit, the opponent only needs to overcome 2 cards instead of 3. This makes it more likely that the opponent will continue playing cards to counter Crones.

 

[KingVridank]

First player has the tempo advantage. This provides to the player:

• Points: With playing the first card, you’ll be ahead in points. In basic terms, you’ll win the round (and game) with having more points the opponent (this is how this game works basically – accumulate more points than the opponent). This may sound stupid, but player can use this as advantage, pushing/forcing opponent to overcome your points (e.g. you won first round. Now opponent has to win second round to play the decider round. That means you may manipulate opponent to play some powerful cards, or pressure them to use some tactics that they would rather save for round three, or maybe force them to play several cards and give up the card advantage).
• Move: We can divide moves into two categories: moves, and counter – moves. As first player, we will want to force opponent to his/her use counter – moves on dummy targets (e.g. you have Yennefer:Conjurer in your hand, and opponent leader is Radovid. You do not want Radovid to kill Yennefer, so you can/may trick (try) opponent to use Radovid on a dummy target).

That is, if you fail to trick opponent into using his/her strong moves, you will probably lose the game.

Second player has the card advantage (and counter – play advantage, naturally)

• Counter – play: plain simple, you get to play the counter – moves. This is mostly a favorable advantage. However, in Gwent, counter – moves are like “ammunition”. And second player is the first one to his/her “ammunition”. You need to be careful choosing which counter – move to be used.
• Last card: to get the final word in gwent is an obvious advantage. Last card in the game is the only card that will not be followed by a counter - move (e.g. if you play weather card as last card, there will not be a clear sky coming after that). It is probably the most secured move, and naturally favored as a precious advantage.

That is, if last move is an important that can change the fate of the game. (Sometimes it does, sometimes it does not)


Overall, in my opinion, neither player has a significant advantage (or disadvantage) over another. There is no need for modification on starting conditions. The point is to adapt the gameplay accordingly. One may favor an advantage (e.g. playing the last card) over other things. If so, player should play accordingly to obtain this advantage (e.g. using spies or forcing opponent to use several cards).

 

[RickMelethron]

First player has the tempo advantage.

there's no tempo in gwent... for the obvious reason of players not being able to attack enemy units.
the only way to disrupt opponent plays is to use removal abilities, such as alzur's and lacerate; and those are very few due to the nature of the game.

(e.g. you have Yennefer:Conjurer in your hand, and opponent leader is Radovid. You do not want Radovid to kill Yennefer, so you can/may trick (try) opponent to use Radovid on a dummy target)

and your opponent knows that a key target for his radovid is conjurer, so he'll deal with your other units by other means unless they are potentially more dangerous than her.

That is, if you fail to trick opponent into using his/her strong moves, you will probably lose the game.

so... "if you go first, hope your opponent misplays or lose"
sounds balanced...

That is, if last move is an important that can change the fate of the game.

you just described every weather card... and the very reason why dagon is such a popular leader nowadays.

 

[RickMelethron]

Going first with Crones and pass with CA.

If you are 2nd and you play Crones first after the opponent played a unit, the opponent only needs to overcome 2 cards instead of 3. This makes it more likely that the opponent will continue playing cards to counter Crones.

how does going second with crones after your opponent played a unit and having him play one or two more to win the round fails to give you card advantage..? you only get the added bonus of him maybe choosing to pass the round while matching the number of cards, which is even better than going first and having him pass before playing anything.

if you go first:
A) the opponent passes without playing anything and keeps a +1.
B) the opponent plays 2-3 cards to take the round.

if you go second:
A) the opponent passes after having played his first card and keeps no advantage.
B) the opponent plays ~2 more cards to take the round (depending on the first card played)

on one scenario, going second is irrelevant; on the other, it's much better. and that's the whole reason why the game is skewed towards the player who goes second... sometimes you get an advantage, but it's never a disadvantage.
(well... i guess you can do the whole milva+roach to get a +1, but i don't think that's going to win many games...)

Nekkers never hit the board and don't trigger their death effect. This may have been changed, though. I haven't checked it recently.

never seen that happen, but if that's the case, your opponent can always trigger the trap by playing something else.

 

[Tir_na_Lia]

I totally agree going first is very bad, I tried one day to keep count of the win-lose ratio and I found 67% of my wins are when I start 2nd.

(it might be just my deck, but if the number of posters claiming the same thing is of any indication, which deck is largely uninfluential)

 

[4RM3D]

there's no tempo in gwent... for the obvious reason of players not being able to attack enemy units.

Which is why I've mentioned the War Longships; the closest thing to tempo and attacking enemy units.

on one scenario, going second is irrelevant; on the other, it's much better. and that's the whole reason why the game is skewed towards the player who goes second... sometimes you get an advantage, but it's never a disadvantage.

The assumption is that the opponent can counter Crones with two cards. This isn't always the case.

When you go first and using Crones, the opponent almost always needs two cards (or more) to counter. When you go 2nd and using Crones, the opponent can neutralize them with 1 card.

All this basically turns into a different discussion: do you want to pass the round in favor of 1 CA? That's an interesting discussion for a different thread.

(well... i guess you can do the whole milva+roach to get a +1, but i don't think that's going to win many games...)

I forgot about Milva. She is also a good example and you don't need Roach for it. I can think of situations where you start and the opponent plays a gold unit first. That's a free CA + replay.

 

[KingVridank]

there's no tempo in gwent... for the obvious reason of players not being able to attack enemy units. the only way to disrupt opponent plays is to use removal abilities, such as alzur's and lacerate; and those are very few due to the nature of the game.

I may have used the term "tempo" wrong, but I tried to explain what I meant by saying "tempo" in two sub-points. I meant by saying "tempo", first player gains move and point advantage (that I tried to explain my opinions in my first comment), which the player may use to his/her own wishes.

and your opponent knows that a key target for his radovid is conjurer, so he'll deal with your other units by other means unless they are potentially more dangerous than her.

For the example I wrote in my first comment, you're saying that Radovid will try to target conjurer unless there is potentially a more dangerous target. And this is exactly what I meant, if player can trick/convince opponent that there is a more vaulable target (other than conjurer) for Radovid, he/she will gain an advantage. But let's not continue on a specific example.

Lets generalize this situation. For instance: First player has threat A and threat B (threat A > Threat B). Second player has Counter X and Counter Y (Counter X > Counter Y). Now, we do not play gwent with open cards. Also, we do not play with all cards at once (even with deck thinning etc. some cards may stay in deck). So the players only suspect what their opponent has in their hands. In this situation:

• If first player can trick/convince second player into thinking that Threat B is Threat A, and in some manner trick/force second player to use Counter X on Threat B (which is disguised as Threat A), he/she will gain an advantage.
• Now, you can say that first player also does not know which counter moves second player has. True, but first player knows what he/she is targeting (e.g. first player thinks that second player has Counter X, and tries to get rid of it. First player will know if he/she failed or succeeded. Condition: whether Counter X used or not). Second player, on the other hand, (in some situations) cannot be sure that he/she used Counter X properly.

so... "if you go first, hope your opponent misplays or lose" sounds balanced...

for what I think, misplay is something like this: Player accidently uses clear sky instead of rally. Player does miscalculation regarding points (e.g. player forgets ancient foglet gaining 1 str). Player forgets about the timer and loses a random card. For me, these are all misplays and these have nothing to do with the interaction between opponents (e.g. first player has no way of making second player to misclick clear sky rather than rally, right?).

What I said was:

That is, if you fail to trick opponent into using his/her strong moves, you will probably lose the game.

this is about whether first player is successful with his/her tactics or not.

you just described every weather card... and the very reason why dagon is such a popular leader nowadays.

I was trying to generalize situations (don't mind the examples, they were just examples). But if I just described all weather cards, I guess the problem is with weather cards rather than the starting order, right?


now, I too feel more comfortable when I have the card advantage and get to play the last card. But I dont think that this system (regarding starting situations) needs to be changed/modified.

 

[roundert]

Which is why I've mentioned the War Longships; the closest thing to tempo and attacking enemy units.



The assumption is that the opponent can counter Crones with two cards. This isn't always the case.

When you go first and using Crones, the opponent almost always needs two cards (or more) to counter. When you go 2nd and using Crones, the opponent can neutralize them with 1 card.

All this basically turns into a different discussion: do you want to pass the round in favor of 1 CA? That's an interesting discussion for a different thread.



I forgot about Milva. She is also a good example and you don't need Roach for it. I can think of situations where you start and the opponent plays a gold unit first. That's a free CA + replay.

I play skellige almost exclusively and I don't like going first, I consider it a disadvantage and was thinking of making a thread on how I almost always seem to go first with a coin toss, it is far from random.

 

[ignalol]

Coin Flip Solution

coin flip solution: the player who plays first gets a card that says (it cant be mulligan, play a card from your hand and boost it by 3-4) the number should be changed until the winrate get ecual. i know this would be better to some factions like the drawfs, and worst to wather decks, but this is a major issue (maybe the only one i would say its important to the core gameplay).

 

[Riven-Twain]

Post moved to Suggestions.

 

[Rawsomeo]

That is actually a decent idea

 

[pngpl]

Why not having a rock-paper-scissors round before start?