Seriously - Poison?? Binary, boring, annoying, all too common these days

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Is poison a good/well impemented mechanic in Gwent?


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So, what prompted me to write this thread is how poison actually takes me back in time and reminds me about the no-unit decks. You put stuff on the board, just to have it removed by some special card, the opponent never playing a unit.
It's not exactly the same, but poison is just spammy removal, and against NG or SY and sometimes ST, you can expect anything you put on the board in the beginning to just be poisoned, which is utter rubbish. 4p/5p units removing whatever you put on the board, while also outputting points on their own or putting coins in the bank or putting harmony on the board. It's nonsense.

Sure, Enslave decks with alot of special cards can also be annoying, and does the same thing, but in a different way. It doesn't output it's own points on the board, and the special cards have limits to their efficiency (let's say, they cannot take out a 6body+ unit). Poison does not have this limit, and it also outputs points at the same time.
What's even the point of trying anything in round 1 against these kind of decks? Poison restricts alot of decks from being viable, you simply have to output rubbish in the start of the round, and preferably rubbish that can do something before it dies, like damaging the opponent. This again leaves you having to build decks with such rubbish cards instead of being able to have an actual gameplan (that will just be poisoned).

So, now you end up in a situation where things become increasingly binary. Did you have bomb heaver when the opponent played scenario? yes, you win, no, you lost. Did you have purify when the opponent played defender? yes, you win, no you lost. And then in addition you have to deal with utter nonsense like poison? For all intents and purposes, purify is NOT EFFICIENT against poison. It cannot stop poison. Poison is pretty damn silly with it 1-2 destroy mechanic.
Decks with alot of special cards is annoying to play against sure, they just reduce or take out alot of the things you play, but at least they are acceptable in a way. Poison does the same exact things, but it's like a special card with a body, and a very powerful special card that can take out ANY body. Few special cards can take out bodies higher than 5, and they rarely if ever put a body on the table at the same time (exception like elf damage 3 deathblow spawn elven deadeye).

Then you even have the worst kind of units like dryad ranger which poison AND have harmony at the same time. Bwah, really?? ST is not so bad actually, if poison was removed from Dryad Ranger it would even be an acceptable solution (as things are). But it doesn't fix poison as a binary mechanic. Removing poison entirely from SY would make SY less toxic, pun intended.. SY is considered perhaps THE strongest faction, and poison actually underpins this.

That leaves us with NG, which alot of people think is a toxic faction alltogether, pun intended.. I don't really agree with that, but poison doesn't really help me in defending NG from these accusations.

Poison has not been in the game for that long. At first it was only a very few poisons, then more were added. But is it not time for the developers to review this mechanic already? What it does and does not do for this game, positive and negative..

I don't think poison is a bad idea, just badly implemented and in its current state a bad mechanic, and very binary in nature. There are many ways to solve this, one is to introduce even more poison, but change the mechanic:

Poison 1: (Half cup) - drains enemy health by 1 per turn
Poison 2: (full cup) - drains enemy health by 2 per turn
Poison 3: (deathblow) - destroys the enemy

If it worked in such a way, it would become more about draining the enemy and killing them slowly, rather than just destroying them in a binary way. It would also make purify a viable solution to poison.
There could also be other counters to poison in such a scenario, including units that are more or less susceptible to poison or even cards (like potions etc), that can turn poison into an advantage before the deathblow.
If poison is a richer and less binary mechanic, it's possible to introduce new and interesting poison units like spies, multi-poison, turn-by-turn poison units etc etc. More powerful poison cards could give poison 2 immediately.

The way poison is now, it's just a 1-2kill, binary, boring and annoying. It has no nuance and in my opinion is a badly implemented mechanic that hasn't been properly reviewed since introduction. It's toxic, yes.. Toxic..

I've played a fair bit of poison myself, and while it is in a way overpowered, it's not really overpowered. It's just dumb. My poison decks is mostly just "poison everything", and I can imagine how boring and annoying this is for my opponents. Making it even worse when I Assire my Masquerade Ball back into my deck and play it again in round 3. It's just toxic, especially by allowing a second play of the scenario for NG. It does nothing for NG reputation in general, which is already quite bad.

I don't necessarily think the above is the solution, it's just one possibility. I think poison currently is very poorly implemented and generally a toxic mechanic, yes yes, again... I did it.. From what I've seen and experienced, this kind of deck is also viable on pro-rank, so don't try to justify poison as "not bad" by saying it's not tier1.
 
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rrc

Forum veteran
I didn't read the post fully as it is huge. But I get the point. I think the issue is poison is too cheap and abundance and there is no downside in using it. If all poison cards are made 5P, it will reduce the problem significantly. ST is already balanced in its poison cards. Only 2 bronze cards have poison and they don't break even and are 5P. If SY and NG get their poison units to 5P and make them not break even, it will be fine.

 
I didn't read the post fully as it is huge. But I get the point. I think the issue is poison is too cheap and abundance and there is no downside in using it. If all poison cards are made 5P, it will reduce the problem significantly. ST is already balanced in its poison cards. Only 2 bronze cards have poison and they don't break even and are 5P. If SY and NG get their poison units to 5P and make them not break even, it will be fine.


While I agree with some of that, I disagree about Dryad Ranger. Obviously it should either lose poison or harmony. The card is just too much value for 5p. It would be like giving Fangs 0f the Empire Assimilate.

Anyways, I disagree about 4p being the main issue, I think the binary and boring nature of the poison mechanic itself is the main issue.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
Yes, if Fangs are 5P and with 3 point body and do 1 damage and poison an enemy and have assimilate, I would be OK with that. Because effectively it is a 3 for 5 with harmony/assimilate tag which is fair.

Anyway, I think poison is the necessary evil. But being available too cheap and too abundant is the problem in my view.
 
Poison 1: (Half cup) - drains enemy health by 1 per turn
Poison 2: (full cup) - drains enemy health by 2 per turn
Poison 3: (deathblow) - destroys the enemy

I second that.

Masquerade Ball :sad:
 
When it comes to boring and binary mechanics, poison isn't even in the top 10 worst offenders. It got too much support and some poison cards are little bit too good, but IMO the mechanic itself isn't that bad.

ST - can kill 1 or 2 units, +harmony. I don't see any big problems here.

SY - can kill 1 to 3 units, +versatile bronzes. SY poison bronzes are too cheap, dogs should cost 5prov.

NG - sooo much poison, but it isn't broken or anything, it is just annoying. Fangs should have only 3p.

Neutrals - Maraal is the only "too strong" neutral poisin card. His order should change to something like: Order: Iniciative: Destroy a poisoned unit.
 
Poison is not truly binary. At least not to the extent artefact removal is. You have not only purify, but defenders, consume, and then mitigating strategies such as destroying/self-wounding the targeted unit to lessen the blow.

The problem is there are far too many Poison cards, just like there are far too many lock cards. Why NG requires two different bronze lock units, for example...
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I don't honestly know why I bother anymore. Poison is way more devastating to any gameplan than locks are, which I guess is the reason alot of people now try to make anti-poison decks.. Go figure..

Basically against poison, you can't place any unit with 5+ body on the board without serious risk of poison. Depending on the poison deck, with double scenario, you probably have at least 10 poisons in total, probably more. Maybe 7 destroys.

Players get 10 cards at the start of the game, plus draw 6 between rounds. That's almost half killed by poison in a bad scenario.
 
In other words you're saying there are too many Poison cards. Which is what I and others have just said.

Chill...
 
Dude you hate Nilfgaard so much, I know it's your thread just by its title... :D
You should probably tech hard against them (us :D ) to teach them a lesson. :D Toss in a bunch of purifies, seriously there's a lot of those...
Other than poison, Damien, Stefan and Bribery, a couple of removals, Nilfgaard lacks the proper punch other factions have.
You should play with it a bit and see why it's not really anywhere close to tier 1.
 

Guest 4368268

Guest
I thought it was a strange mechanic from the beginning. But because there were so few poison cards then it wasn't like you'd run into it all the time. I don't like the fact it exists and can just wipe out anything it chooses to. There's already such an abundance of (multi-functional) tall removal that the fact these 4/5 provision cards can do it is really just too much. Of course, purify cards are a great way to counter it. But who wants to stuff a deck full of those..?

If all engines became OP, you could counter it by running a dozen locks, but where's the fun in that? Just speaking for myself, producing points in creative ways is the way I have a good time. I don't have a good time when I have to run a load of tech cards. When cheap cards (that'll never brick as they can choose any target) can destroy my wincon(s) that feels a bit anticlimactic. If they intent to keep the mechanic I would hope that bronze poison cards can only target other bronzes.
 
In other words you're saying there are too many Poison cards. Which is what I and others have just said.

Chill...

Not really, I'm saying the mechanic is bad. I have a couple of poison decks and I run scenario x2 (4x poison), Maraal (2x poison), cupbearer (1x), Puffball (1x), Rot Tosser x2 (4x), Cobra x2 (x2) and Fangs x2 (x2). Sometimes i run 2 Puffballs, but usually 1. So that's already 16 poisons, which could theoretically kill 8 units.

That's a very poison oriented deck, but it's not really that many units. The issue is mostly 2x scenario and the way poison works. People can't purify it, so there is basically no counter. I basically just spam poison at everything.

It would be nice to see a better implemented poison mechanic. Why should a relict like caretaker be able to be poisoned? Makes no sense. Lock, sure, kill, sure. But poison? Makes him worthless against poison. Having to tech against poison (and defender) with lots of purify also narrows down/restrict deck building.

If poison was a slower process and some units are less susceptible to poison it would have more nuance. Like slowly draining health, but not being able to destroy units with 2 poisons (3 instead), and perhaps even requiring more to kill even bigger units.

I don't know, I just think poison is quite bad currently.
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Dude you hate Nilfgaard so much

Yeah, I'm a Nilfgaard main, so no worry.
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I thought it was a strange mechanic from the beginning. But because there were so few poison cards then it wasn't like you'd run into it all the time. I don't like the fact it exists and can just wipe out anything it chooses to. There's already such an abundance of (multi-functional) tall removal that the fact these 4/5 provision cards can do it is really just too much. Of course, purify cards are a great way to counter it. But who wants to stuff a deck full of those..?

If all engines became OP, you could counter it by running a dozen locks, but where's the fun in that? Just speaking for myself, producing points in creative ways is the way I have a good time. I don't have a good time when I have to run a load of tech cards. When cheap cards (that'll never brick as they can choose any target) can destroy my wincon(s) that feels a bit anticlimactic. If they intent to keep the mechanic I would hope that bronze poison cards can only target other bronzes.

You describe the problem well.

Someone suggested bigger units need more poison to be destroyed. I think that also makes sense. Actually many things have been suggested.

I just don't think poison as it is at the moment is a good mechanic, in fact it's starting to be really annoying, alike to what the "no unit decks" were back in the day.
 
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People are forgetting one major issue with poison; its no fun to play against!
Yes Pro Rank players and older ones with decent cards will do ok, but imagine someone new to the game trying to have some fun and building crazy unbalanced decks only to get facepalmed by loads of poison cards. I'm not sure all of them keep playing the game if this is the level of "fun" provided.
 
NG plus poison is just flipping ridiculous. Poison is not done well, it's too cheap and too abundant.

You pay the price if your deck has only single use damage cards. Why should you have cards that not only give points but also destroys any size unit!!!!!

There's got to be a limit to what it does.

Just brainstorming: what about if a unit is poison every additional poison does 5 damage?

That would decrease it's effectiveness but keep it deadly for small units.

On top of lock there's poison drastically reducing the use of fun cards to engage in battle.

The purify cards are too weak or too expensive and are completely out numbered by the poison/lock cards.

NG is particularly annoying because it replays and has a gold spawn card, spawning 2 poisons which can be done on the same round!!!

Sheesh.

Is really the want of the developers to make NG and SY the best by being the most annoying?!
 
I agree that poison is bad for the game, but Slama has been quite clear about poison: they aren't doing anything about it any time soon. I think it will take two ti three expansions before they can consider reworking it. Most likely we can expect provision tweaks, maybe some cards will be changed altogether, if we're lucky, that is.
However I want to point out that should they rework it I don't think your idea is the way to go. That would make poison powercrept bleeding.
 
People are forgetting one major issue with poison; its no fun to play against!
Yes Pro Rank players and older ones with decent cards will do ok, but imagine someone new to the game trying to have some fun and building crazy unbalanced decks only to get facepalmed by loads of poison cards. I'm not sure all of them keep playing the game if this is the level of "fun" provided.

Yeah, that's a good point. Poison is not fun to play against. Just throwing stuff on the board for it to be poisoned.

I think that was the major factor in why they banished the "no-unit" decks, because it was no fun. Not because it was super powerful or broke half the cards of the game, but because they were so annoying and unfun.
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I agree that poison is bad for the game, but Slama has been quite clear about poison: they aren't doing anything about it any time soon. I think it will take two ti three expansions before they can consider reworking it. Most likely we can expect provision tweaks, maybe some cards will be changed altogether, if we're lucky, that is.
However I want to point out that should they rework it I don't think your idea is the way to go. That would make poison powercrept bleeding.

I don't know, it was just a thought. Anything is better than 1-2destroy that poison is now. It needs more nuance. And I guess that more "realistic", poison drains the victims health, slowly, the more poison, the faster health deteriorate until death. I guess it depends on the type of poison.

But another problem is purify, as someone said, it is too expensive, too rare and lacks efficiency against lots of poison. I guess one way to deal with that would be to make caretaker immune to poison. But then ofcourse he would get locked, so it wouldn't be much progress, but perhaps some. It would also make him OP against locks.
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Perhaps it would solve it to just fix the 2x NG scenario situation, combined with making poison more expensive and/or less units with poison.

Currently R1 against Hidden Cache, typically they try to boost, whatever you play that might actually catch up is poisoned, while they stock up on coins and/or put points on the board.

It's a bit the same with ST, not only do they poison the first useful/tall unit you put on the board, but they also put 2x harmony at the same time.
 
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I don't think the solution is to kill an already weak archetype when a couple of tech cards would solve the "issue"... Even though I personally feel there has to be a sort of tall punish in poison form. Making purify more abundant on the other hand, sure, maybe through one of future expansions, but still not enough to enable complete dominance of tall units... People who say poisoning is too easy I ask - easier than unlimited stacking of points?
 
I don't think the solution is to kill an already weak archetype when a couple of tech cards would solve the "issue"... Even though I personally feel there has to be a sort of tall punish in poison form. Making purify more abundant on the other hand, sure, maybe through one of future expansions, but still not enough to enable complete dominance of tall units... People who say poisoning is too easy I ask - easier than unlimited stacking of points?

My observation of poison (including my own poison deck) is that ANY unit above 5 body is a worthwhile poison target. It's just a "remove everything" kind of mechanic that just punishes ANY tall unit extra much, which restrict any kind of engines or good card from sticking.

Purify is bad against poison, doesn't work well at all. Now if a unit (relict) like Caretaker could not be poisoned, we're talking another dynamic. But that really punishes locks as well, and I don't think that's right either.
 
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