Seriously - Poison?? Binary, boring, annoying, all too common these days

[mazeebra]

The problem with bomb, its that cost 4 provisions and just destroy the artifact. So when he uses scenario and you destroy it, he has still + 4 points in that movement. In final rounds its important everypoints u could get. Thats why i use bomb heaver. It cost only one more provision than dimeritium bomb but give you + 4 and also you can find it using Royal decree (another must card)

Problem is, if you're stuck with this card the last round and there is no scenario, chances is this card will lose you the game as a 4 point card. Having it in deck or at hand is not really a good thing, unless there is a scenario. The design is that annoying.

I've been experimenting with Triss as an alternative solution, adding dancing star, northern wind and lacerate as "options". But this is not really the solution either. And drawing dancing star at hand is postively worse than bomb heaver.

 

[Esteboide]

Problem is, if you're stuck with this card the last round and there is no scenario, chances is this card will lose you the game as a 4 point card. Having it in deck or at hand is not really a good thing, unless there is a scenario. The design is that annoying.

I've been experimenting with Triss as an alternative solution, adding dancing star, northern wind and lacerate as "options". But this is not really the solution either. And drawing dancing star at hand is postively worse than bomb heaver.

i´ve been playing with bomb heaver months and never had a problem with this card. Its a 90% win against NF poison if you know when to use it and so usefull against others artifacs. Its matter wich kind of player you are. I have royal decree in all my decks. So is not a problem for me keep it on my deck and look for it in case a want it. So the problem depend of the type of player or deck. Its matter to be smart and know when you have to take the risk, when you have to wait and when you have to push. I would never keep bomb heaver in my hand if im not sure the opponent have and artifact to use.

 

[Guest 4375874]

i´ve been playing with bomb heaver months and never had a problem with this card. Its a 90% win against NF poison if you know when to use it and so usefull against others artifacs. Its matter wich kind of player you are. I have royal decree in all my decks. So is not a problem for me keep it on my deck and look for it in case a want it. So the problem depend of the type of player or deck. Its matter to be smart and know when you have to take the risk, when you have to wait and when you have to push. I would never keep bomb heaver in my hand if im not sure the opponent have and artifact to use.

not in the slightest. NG has so many plays that having this card could be a waste and cost you the match. It doesn't matter how smart you are you can't know whether they have scenario or not. I've played several ranked matches where I don't see the scenario 1st or 2nd round but oh wait there it is in the 3rd round because NG allows players to execute several different archetypes and still have scenario. Yes other factions have scenarios but poison is far more difficult to recover from so if you don't have Heaver you're guaranteed a loss and if you have it and they don't play scenario then you've wasted a card and likely at the cost of the match.

 

[Esteboide]

not in the slightest. NG has so many plays that having this card could be a waste and cost you the match. It doesn't matter how smart you are you can't know whether they have scenario or not. I've played several ranked matches where I don't see the scenario 1st or 2nd round but oh wait there it is in the 3rd round because NG allows players to execute several different archetypes and still have scenario. Yes other factions have scenarios but poison is far more difficult to recover from so if you don't have Heaver you're guaranteed a loss and if you have it and they don't play scenario then you've wasted a card and likely at the cost of the match.

I have pretty good win rate in ranked and i have Heaver in all my decks. So i desagree. As i told you. I use Royal decree in my decks. I dont need to have Heaver on my hand. Its matter how you play.

 

[quintivarium]

There are a lot of low provision cards that wield a lot of power in the right context — and to me, it is these cards that make the game worthwhile. Most of these cards require effort and/or creativity to use well.

Poison, even with the current mechanic, has that same potential. Setting up two cards to destroy one is very fair. The real problem is that poison is just too prevalent - and often comes on cards with other valuable features. If each faction had access to no more than 5 applications of poison on cards that had no other significant feature, we would not be having this discussion.

 

[Anarinyane]

I also think the issue with Poison is just that there’s too much of it going around, esp. in Nilfgaard and partly in Syndicate. The 1-2 kill mechanic isn’t too bad, if choosing the target is a commitment, and having two or better three poison cards in hand isn’t a given. Then you have to choose wisely what unit to commit your poison to (as it is currently in SC, which has like 3 viable poison cards, which translates to one poison kill per match, which I feel is ok).
The issue with NG poison is, there SO MUCH of it, esp. with double Ball etc, poison isn’t a commitment anymore. You can go around and spam poison on every unit and decide later which ones you want to kill, or you can poison a unit early because you have enough poison up your sleeve to make another poison kill (or two or three) later in the game. And this is where it becomes frustrating. Just my two cents on the poison topic...

 

[Lycores]

poison is not a good design unless calling unit from graveyard is as easy as being removed by card effect.

 

[Guest 4368268]

I also think the issue with Poison is just that there’s too much of it going around, esp. in Nilfgaard and partly in Syndicate. The 1-2 kill mechanic isn’t too bad, if choosing the target is a commitment, and having two or better three poison cards in hand isn’t a given. Then you have to choose wisely what unit to commit your poison to (as it is currently in SC, which has like 3 viable poison cards, which translates to one poison kill per match, which I feel is ok).
The issue with NG poison is, there SO MUCH of it, esp. with double Ball etc, poison isn’t a commitment anymore. You can go around and spam poison on every unit and decide later which ones you want to kill, or you can poison a unit early because you have enough poison up your sleeve to make another poison kill (or two or three) later in the game. And this is where it becomes frustrating. Just my two cents on the poison topic...

Exactly. When I saw the mechanic being introduced I was immediately worried because though at the time it looked fine it's one of those things that can spiral out of control real fast as the game and/or the meta changes.
When I first used fangs I always thought "I just got 16(+) points from two 4 provision cards" and it already felt a little broken then.

An idea I like for poison is when you give it to a unit the next instance of damage you inflict upon it is doubled.
It would be a very powerful status that makes your cheap '2 deal 2' cards a lot better still. Maraal would be 'deploy: poison a unit, order: damage a unit by 4' still very strong.
As it stands the whole mechanic is simply busted. Purifying will not do anything but delay the inevitable. It's not like you can give cards like Gremist immunity either (cause they shouldn't be able to remove all locks/bleeding)

 

[BabyLeshen]

i´ve been playing with bomb heaver months and never had a problem with this card. Its a 90% win against NF poison if you know when to use it and so usefull against others artifacs. Its matter wich kind of player you are. I have royal decree in all my decks. So is not a problem for me keep it on my deck and look for it in case a want it. So the problem depend of the type of player or deck. Its matter to be smart and know when you have to take the risk, when you have to wait and when you have to push. I would never keep bomb heaver in my hand if im not sure the opponent have and artifact to use.

Besides heaver, what else you call from Decree? (just curious about your deck)

 

[Guest 4398794]

Is the worst renewal mechanism period.
And too many poision cards exist to enforce the use of them.

Post automatically merged: May 13, 2020

Devs can always change how Poison works.
Here is my idea for it:
Make poision status somewhat like bleed.
If a unit is poisoned , that unit loses health each turn (or turn start) until is removed from filed of purified . Or maybe lose two points when there is 2 poision stacked , or for each poision stacked lose one point per turn ( start end whatever)


This way it won't be an instant removal and will give more time to counter it somehow.

 

[Guest 4368268]

The worst part of the poison mechanic for me is how it throws the game back to the days of coinflip abuse as well.
In round 1 you want to commit a little more so as to not get overrun, but then when you do the opponents 4p/5p bronzes can punish you for it. This is a problem against Syndicate, Nilfgaard and Scoiatael. Three factions that use abuse this mechanic.
Getting your best cards removed by a Philippa or Vincent isn't fun, but by cheap bronzes is simply demoralizing.
But not only is a fix not underway, they still haven't even realized this mechanic is awful yet. They're always five steps behind the community and it translates to roughly five months of waiting every time.

 

[MeCawl]

I think a simple way to rework Poison could be as follows:
- Change Poison to: At the end of your turn, Poisoned units lose 1 Poison. If they accumulate 3 Poison, they are destroyed.
- Each unit that currently applies Poison instead applies 2 Poison.

Poison would be much more reactable and require more immediate input, rather than being a looming threat you can't do anything against if you don't have Purify. You'd need to use 2 instances of Poison in quick succession in order to kill the target unit.

 

[ApuLunas]

i don't know what's the point of playing aganist NG lock & poison combo. there are 4 provision cards that can posion or lock you while accumulating points, not to mention their abilities are triggered immediatly. i haven't won a single game against this combo.

 

[Bleach25]

not in the slightest. NG has so many plays that having this card could be a waste and cost you the match. It doesn't matter how smart you are you can't know whether they have scenario or not. I've played several ranked matches where I don't see the scenario 1st or 2nd round but oh wait there it is in the 3rd round because NG allows players to execute several different archetypes and still have scenario. Yes other factions have scenarios but poison is far more difficult to recover from so if you don't have Heaver you're guaranteed a loss and if you have it and they don't play scenario then you've wasted a card and likely at the cost of the match.

It's not like you are forced to play machines only in a siege deck or you can't build an hybrid feign death deck.
Also Passiflora has been featured into most SY decks in the last months.

 

[radesign]

Many skills should be reworked.

Maybe:

1.Purify : "Remove unit status and prevent next status cast on this unit".

2.Resurrect/Second Wind/shuffle from graveyard to deck: "Add Weakened status to this card - it power is halved, and it does just half of special powers (card specific,maybe some exemptions).

point 2. to cure Wild Boar / Masquerade Ball [...]

Edited. -Draconifors

 

[ApuLunas]

i don't know why but developers just don't care what players think. same happened to WoT too. it took 3 years to developers listen to one advice from players. many players are sick of op ng deck and nothing changed for a long while.

 

[Guest 4375874]

It's not like you are forced to play machines only in a siege deck or you can't build an hybrid feign death deck.
Also Passiflora has been featured into most SY decks in the last months.

Building a deck aimed at combating just poison just means you're vulnerable to other decks. No one should have to change their deck just to beat a single archetype. And don't get me wrong, every strategy has a weakness so I'm quite fine with losing against a better player or deck so long as it's balanced but NG lock & removal requires very little thinking...your just on autopilot, you can't even draw a bad hand. Also Passiflora by itself isn't the issue, the card has been around long before the last buff to SY. It's the buff to the faction, specific cards...and Hidden cache that has made it annoying.

 

[quintivarium]

There are decks that beat poison. I’ve had good success using Skellige second wind playing my defender repeatedly (with Sigrdrifa’s rite and second wind). By the time a poison deck removes my defender 3 times, they have too little poison left to combat my engines.

But, being able to defeat poison decks isn’t really the issue. The problem is that they make many archetypes unplayable. There is no viable tech to handle six or more poisons, only abandoning the archetype. So rather than adding interest to the game, they dramatically increase redundancy. Other than a couple of Skellige decks and a monster consume deck, all that seems to work against poison is spam and instant damage — and, of course, more poison. This definitely damages the game.

 

[mazeebra]

i don't know why but developers just don't care what players think. same happened to WoT too. it took 3 years to developers listen to one advice from players. many players are sick of op ng deck and nothing changed for a long while.

Op NG decks? lol, funny..

Post automatically merged: May 21, 2020

There are decks that beat poison. I’ve had good success using Skellige second wind playing my defender repeatedly (with Sigrdrifa’s rite and second wind). By the time a poison deck removes my defender 3 times, they have too little poison left to combat my engines.

But, being able to defeat poison decks isn’t really the issue. The problem is that they make many archetypes unplayable. There is no viable tech to handle six or more poisons, only abandoning the archetype. So rather than adding interest to the game, they dramatically increase redundancy. Other than a couple of Skellige decks and a monster consume deck, all that seems to work against poison is spam and instant damage — and, of course, more poison. This definitely damages the game.

I think one of the main issues is the "poison everything" option, which is basically possible due to scenario, but also the "cheap non-archtype initial poison" from ST and SY, mainly trafficker and dryad ranger. Both factions don't only remove whatever the opponent plays on the board, but also prepares and/or set up an engine.

NG poison is a kind of type, and I don't think it's wrong for NG (aside from scenario). But I don't think it was too cleverly implemented. For example, fangs of the empire should probably be a spy unit in some way. It should be redesigned in a fun and good way. If it was, I think alot of the poison complaints in regards to NG would vanish.

But then again, fangs is not the real problem, scenarios are, including masquerade ball, all fetching way more points and/or value than any other 14 provisions in the game.

 

[Tyr117]

There are decks that beat poison. I’ve had good success using Skellige second wind playing my defender repeatedly (with Sigrdrifa’s rite and second wind). By the time a poison deck removes my defender 3 times, they have too little poison left to combat my engines.

But, being able to defeat poison decks isn’t really the issue. The problem is that they make many archetypes unplayable. There is no viable tech to handle six or more poisons, only abandoning the archetype. So rather than adding interest to the game, they dramatically increase redundancy. Other than a couple of Skellige decks and a monster consume deck, all that seems to work against poison is spam and instant damage — and, of course, more poison. This definitely damages the game.

You can't do that against a proper NG player, they'll just Use Yennefers Invocation on it, and then goodbye.