[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[Ayinde_Palmer]

The Arasaka ending is, on a large scale, saying "Yes, absolutely" to this question and they still fucking kill you.

He never said killing innocents to save yourself was guaranteed to work, Just that its a decision the character has to ask themselves. That said, I don't think the Arasaka Ending is about that, You aren't really choosing if you can remove Arasaka or not.

 

[kjiandan]

The inconclusive endings to some quests really frustrated me since it was yet another blow to player choice actually feeling like it mattered at all.

I can understand the endings being a bit more open-ended to tease expansions, but for stories contained within the base game, it just feels like a slap in the face.

 

[Barsenthor]

The inconclusive endings to some quests really frustrated me since it was yet another blow to player choice actually feeling like it mattered at all.

I can understand the endings being a bit more open-ended to tease expansions, but for stories contained within the base game, it just feels like a slap in the face.

Endings try to be edgy and story is quite good, but then in 10 years people will be talking about epic TW3 and maybe about good CP77 story. This is the difference.

 

[exxxed]

Cool video about philosophic tropes

I'm just typing this reply as I'm watching the video, it's quite intriguing:

- he misses the point of the digitalized psyche, at no point in the game it's ever implied that the engrams are the same people, on the contrary see Jackie

- it's also implied throughout the game that Johnny does not recollect the events in his memories as they happened in real life, perhaps he's only partially Johnny, the Relic was damaged, maybe it affected Johnny's engram as well

- he misses the point about the particular aspects borrowed from literature, they're there to provide a narrative service point for the Johnny-V vehicle (does everything need to have a deeper meaning?)

- it's a story about growing old, what is growing old? change...

Anyway, the fact that we're having such discussions surrounding a video game is proof that the video game industry is maturing, and I like it.

What I mean by that is that this, for better or worse, is a mainstream game and has these subjects surrounding it, too bad it's being delivered in the state that it has...

Anyway, what's the message of the game?

What's the message of your life?

Does it need a message?

Can each individual find their own message?

Is the concept of rebirth, letting go, change the message?

Is the journey the message, your memories, your feelings?

What's it trying to say with these things?

Is the underlying concept of multiculturalism, mass marketing, corporate influence, rampant technological advances, cheap gizmos, giving away ones individuality, ones influence on others, ones influence on the environment, society becoming desensitized to thought control and media influence, holding on to ones principles, holding one to ones beliefs, spirituality, the concept of self and other...

There's plenty of messages if you ask me, as there are plenty of different people playing and experiencing the game, each and every single one of them differently.

Words are easy, quoting someone is easy, finding meaning... well... here we are humanity, what is our purpose...

In the end it is just one video game, not even a series, how many things can it touch upon without actually collapsing under it's own weight (to some it already has)?

My personal take on the message of the game is, friendship, love/loss, trying to do as much as you can with the time that you have been given because you won't get a second shot.

Anyway I digress, love the video by the way.

 

[Barsenthor]

I'm just typing this reply as I'm watching the video, it's quite intriguing:

- he misses the point of the digitalized psyche, at no point in the game it's ever implied that the engrams are the same people, on the contrary see Jackie

- it's also implied throughout the game that Johnny does not recollect the events in his memories as they happened in real life, perhaps he's only partially Johnny, the Relic was damaged, maybe it affected Johnny's engram as well

- he misses the point about the particular aspects borrowed from literature, they're there to provide a narrative service point for the Johnny-V vehicle (does everything need to have a deeper meaning?)

- it's a story about growing old, what is growing old? change...

Anyway, the fact that we're having such discussions surrounding a video game is proof that the video game industry is maturing, and I like it.

What I mean by that is that this, for better or worse, is a mainstream game and has these subjects surrounding it, too bad it's being delivered in the state that it has...

Anyway, what's the message of the game?

What's the message of your life?

Does it need a message?

Can each individual find their own message?

Is the concept of rebirth, letting go, change the message?

Is the journey the message, your memories, your feelings?

What's it trying to say with these things?

Is the underlying concept of multiculturalism, mass marketing, corporate influence, rampant technological advances, cheap gizmos, giving away ones individuality, ones influence on others, ones influence on the environment, society becoming desensitized to thought control and media influence, holding on to ones principles, holding one to ones beliefs, spirituality, the concept of self and other...

There's plenty of messages if you ask me, as there are plenty of different people playing and experiencing the game, each and every single one of them differently.

Words are easy, quoting someone is easy, finding meaning... well... here we are humanity, what is our purpose...

In the end it is just one video game, not even a series, how many things can it touch upon without actually collapsing under it's own weight (to some it already has)?

My personal take on the message of the game is, friendship, love/loss, trying to do as much as you can with the time that you have been given because you won't get a second shot.

Anyway I digress, love the video by the way.

If you want to send a message, use Western Union.

games, triple A ones, hollywood blockbuster are not about messages, they are about entertainment.

entertainment

1. shows, films, television, or other performances or activities that entertain…

dictionary.cambridge.org

game shouldn't venture into this area to begin with. It went probably for the shock value - this is a cheap move, kind of one-time-only trump card you can use.
Try to pull this once as a GM and it will be considered that this was something different. Do this twice and you will end up with edge lord tag, never again to be trusted as a GM.

 

[Loud.mp3]

Cool video about philosophic tropes

This is a very interesting review

 

[Crusher93]

at no point in the game it's ever implied that the engrams are the same people, on the contrary see Jackie

Well you could say the game goes back and forth on this topic. Implying one time that Johnny is a real person(special moments with him etc.) and other times that he is not real, just a code or "soulless being"(Alt "explaining" stuff first time in the cyberspace).

Post automatically merged: Feb 1, 2021

- it's also implied throughout the game that Johnny does not recollect the events in his memories as they happened in real life, perhaps he's only partially Johnny, the Relic was damaged, maybe it affected Johnny's engram as well

People always remember stuff differently than it really was.

 

[exxxed]

game shouldn't venture into this area to begin with. It went probably for the shock value - this is a cheap move, kind of one-time-only trump card you can use.

I disagree, but to each their own.

Interactive entertainment is the future whether you like it or not, the quicker it matures the happier I am .

 

[Crusher93]

(does everything need to have a deeper meaning?)

No, but basically cockteasing with philosophical themes throughout the game and then not elaborating on them is not helpful in this want of deeper meaning.

 

[exxxed]

Well you could say the game goes back and forth on this topic. Implying one time that Johnny is a real person(special moments with him etc.) and other times that he is not real, just a code or "soulless being"(Alt "explaining" stuff first time in the cyberspace).

Post automatically merged: Feb 1, 2021

People always remember stuff differently than it was.

Yes true but they also specifically point out that engrams can exist at the same time with the living person, by the very definition and engram is a copy.

The question the game asks is, does an engram have a soul?

Post automatically merged: Feb 1, 2021

No, but basically cockteasing with philosophical themes throughout the game and then not elaborating on them is not helpful in this want of deeper meaning.

How is it teasing though, they all have a purpose, they're not just there for show.

A few examples:

-the engrams

-the dolls

-mikoshi

-soulkiller

-the net

Yes they all existed in different forms throughout literature, but I mean, do we even have anything original at all nowadays?

 

[Balmung79]

[...]

My personal take on the message of the game is, friendship, love/loss, trying to do as much as you can with the time that you have been given because you won't get a second shot.

[...]

This and more:

1. Stay true to yourself.
2. Listen to advices you get (and you get plenty in the game from various characters).
3. Do not follow advices that contradict 1., since all advisors have their own intentions, blind spots and shortcomings.
4. There are sometimes decisions to be taken with only bad options, so have the backbone to shoulder them (tell Peralez the holy truth or protect him and his family?).
5. Help others. If you don't help others you can only go with Suicide or Devil endings, you don't romance anyone, and no one helps you.
6. Don't be lazy, don't be hesitant, be decisive and take action! You only have sixth month left, maybe a bit longer, to find a cure (don't go to Troy resp. leave early) or to ἀποθεόω as a legend of legends (stay in Troy and take that arrow; the other endings suck).
7. Maybe more?

 

[Eritros]

No, but basically cockteasing with philosophical themes throughout the game and then not elaborating on them is not helpful in this want of deeper meaning.

Didn't watch the video.
This game is as much as it can get Schopenhauer (and Kantian).
Will to live, the body as the mean through which we can experience the world but also the cause of all of our sufferings and pleasures, the mind as the only source of true knowledge, ascetism, ever changing nature of the human condition (this more eraclian though).

Would have loved for the game to go the Nietzschian way for the main character.
The only one that can fit the definition of the ubermensch in this game is Saburo Arasaka, who in one of the endings achieves Immortality.

 

[Crusher93]

The question the game asks is, does an engram have a soul?

That's a hollow question for me - they don't have a soul, cause according to some views: we are "souls", we don't "have" them, so nobody can really take them from us or code them into some program - that doesn't make sense on spiritual level. But this is a matter of interpretation and depending on the worldview of the player it can bring different answers.

 

[exxxed]

This and more:

1. Stay true to yourself.
2. Listen to advices you get (and you get plenty in the game from various characters).
3. Do not follow advices that contradict 1., since all advisors have their own intentions, blind spots and shortcomings.
4. There are sometimes decisions to be taken with only bad options, so have the backbone to shoulder them (tell Peralez the holy truth or protect him and his family?).
5. Help others. If you don't help others you can only go with Suicide or Devil endings, you don't romance anyone, and no one helps you.
6. Don't be lazy, don't be hesitant, be decisive and take action! You only have sixth month left, maybe a bit longer, to find a cure (don't go to Troy resp. leave early) or to ἀποθεόω as a legend of legends (stay in Troy and take that arrow; the other endings suck).
7. Maybe more?

That was my point, there are so many ways to interpret the meaning behind the endings and what's presented to us throughout the game - what one takes out if it, is personal to them.

That's what makes it brilliant and it's only achievable with really, really good acting and animations.

 

[LordSareth]

That's a hollow question for me - they don't have a soul, cause according to some views: we are "souls", we don't "have" them, so nobody can really take them from us or code them into some program - that doesn't make sense on spiritual level. But this is a matter of interpretation and depending on the worldview of the player it can bring different answers.

And here i disagree. I think they have a soul. They can think, change, suffer. Engram is not soul of the old one. But a new one. In my opinion tho.

That was my point, there are so many ways to interpret the meaning behind the endings and what's presented to us throughout the game - what one takes out if it, is personal to them.

That's what makes it brilliant and it's only achievable with really, really good acting and animations.

Funny how that guy missed half of the points.
2 - Most advices lead to soulkiller and death.
5 - remember soulkiller?
6 - We have yet to see a cure. What we have seen is diagnosis.

 

[exxxed]

That's a hollow question for me - they don't have a soul, cause according to some views: we are "souls", we don't "have" them, so nobody can really take them from us or code them into some program - that doesn't make sense on spiritual level. But this is a matter of interpretation and depending on the worldview of the player it can bring different answers.

Agreed, well for me personally, it wasn't so much as a soul per se, it was more like are the engrams real people themselves.

But the game itself is asking that question through characters of religious beliefs, so it comes across as the concept of a soul.

While a more pragmatic individual would actually equate that with individualism.

Post automatically merged: Feb 1, 2021

Funny how that guy missed half of the points.
2 - Most advices lead to soulkiller and death.
5 - remember soulkiller?
6 - We have yet to see a cure. What we have seen is diagnosis.

But is it though?

Does it really lead to death?

Or just another way of existing...

As far as I know V is alive at the end except for the suicide ending obviously.

 

[LordSareth]

But is it though?

Does it really lead to death?

Or just another way of existing...

As far as I know V is alive at the end except for the suicide ending obviously.

If you consider that after death there is still some kind of existence then i Can agree it's another way I think otherwise tho. To me V survived only in arasaka ending.

 

[Crusher93]

How is it teasing though, they all have a purpose, they're not just there for show.

A few examples:

-the engrams

-the dolls

-mikoshi

-soulkiller

-the net

Because the game does not elaborate on said topics, to put it simply. It could have been way more philosophical with these themes, yet playing the game I felt like it said to me:"look this is big dark theme you are looking at, edgy and interesting, huh?" and I was like: "no, it's not, it's dull and does not bring anything to the table".

Ambiguity can bring opennes in the interpretation but it's a double edged sword, it also brings no new stuff or even no old stuff reinvented or even just good cyberpunk stuff for that matter. It can only make someone think, but I don't know...
I used to think a lot on these topics at some point in my life, maybe Im just burnout. Guess it's better to burn out, than to (never)fade away [sorry, I had to ]

And if the game's goal was to make people think on these topics than it failed imho - just look at majority of gamers simping for Panam or Judy, not giving a single f about some deep philosophical themes.

 

[Barsenthor]

Agreed, well for me personally, it wasn't so much as a soul per se, it was more like are the engrams real people themselves.

But the game itself is asking that question through characters of religious beliefs, so it comes across as the concept of a soul.

While a more pragmatic individual would actually equate that with individualism.

Post automatically merged: Feb 1, 2021

But is it though?

Does it really lead to death?

Or just another way of existing...

As far as I know V is alive at the end except for the suicide ending obviously.

Asking? wow that's an overstatement. I get the monk quest tho this is one of the shortest one.
It's literally talk to A, go down the alley (!) kill 3 gonks, press X (here talk to another monk), go to A. End.
Than we have what ever means Johnny/biochip story arc, hard to get what was it all about - something something Arasaka, something something smash Mikoshi. It's like the directors commentary about the plot ends up in the final script.

Alt/Delamein are so short that trying to make any sense of it is a head canon territory.
Mostly this is about Arasaka=Bad and classes about dying.

 

[Balmung79]

And here i disagree. I think they have a soul. They can think, change, suffer. Engram is not soul of the old one. But a new one. In my opinion tho.

Funny how that guy missed half of the points.
2 - Most advices lead to soulkiller and death.
5 - remember soulkiller?
6 - We have yet to see a cure. What we have seen is diagnosis.

Funny how you totally missed my points.
2. Do what not contradicts 1. If Soulkiller and death are part of your truth, who is to blame? Otherwise take the other option(s).
5. If this is problematic for you, then don't go this way: take the Devil ending and don't sign the contract. You don't have to help anyone by the way to get that sub-ending.
6. It's not about an already known cure, it's about not to wait for the clock to stop ticking, but to take the chances and opportunities you've got or to create them yourself.