[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[exxxed]

Because the game does not elaborate on said topics, to put it simply. It could have been way more philosophical with these themes, yet playing the game I felt like it said to me:"look this is big dark theme you are looking at, edgy and interesting, huh?" and I was like: "no, it's not, it's dull and does not bring anything to the table".

Ambiguity can bring opennes in the interpretation but it's a double edged sword, it also brings no new stuff or even no old stuff reinvented or even just good cyberpunk stuff for that matter. It can only make someone think, but I don't know...
I used to think a lot on these topics at some point in my life, maybe Im just burnout. Guess it's better to burnout, than to (never)fade away [sorry, I had to ]

And if the game's goal was to make people think on these topics than it failed imho - just look at majority of gamers simping for Panam or Judy, not giving a single f about some deep philosophical themes.

I understand where you're coming from, I too had different ideas and expectations when I first started the game, the thing is they serve a purpose and that's enough for me.

And lol yeah, the community at large, such magnificent creatures .

But then we're in a thread discussing the philosophical implications (and inconsistencies) of the plot and the endings with all the plot points in between that spans over 800 pages and more than 17.000 replies (fokin really? am I reading that number right?).

I think there's values in there somewhere.

''A thing of beauty, I know...''

 

[LordSareth]

You see a glass half full, me half empty huh?
And I always play true to myself. And I don't consider Arasaka a subpar ending. In my opinion it is one of the best considering feelings , dialogue, montage and a little poeting thing : A deal with the devil that can save your soul

 

[exxxed]

Asking? wow that's an overstatement. I get the monk quest tho this is one of the shortest one.

And Sinnerman, and Zen Master, and the entirety of the main quest line...

It's literally talk to A, go down the alley (!) kill 3 gonks, press X (here talk to another monk), go to A. End.

Yes it's a video game...

Than we have what ever means Johnny/biochip story arc, hard to get what was it all about - something something Arasaka, something something smash Mikoshi. It's like the directors commentary about the plot ends up in the final script.

It was about second chances... quite literally...

Post automatically merged: Feb 1, 2021

You see a glass half full, me half empty huh?
And I always play true to myself. And I don't consider Arasaka a subpar ending. In my opinion it is one of the best considering feelings , dialogue, montage and a little poeting thing : A deal with the devil that can save your soul

Same here, I quite enjoyed my Corpo playthrough and having Takemura and Oda at the end, it didn't really feel like my V sold her soul to the devil at all.

She was one of the demons to begin with .

 

[Groddon]

I was just thinking about how to explain my stance on the endings and the story and came up with a simple metaphor.
Let's change relic to cancer and Arasaka to uh.. a tobacco company. Marlboro

So let's imagine that V learns she got cancer from smoking.
It was her choice (the heist) but she's dying.
Then she would go through surgery learning she's still dying and has like 2-3 weeks to live.
What would you expect this story to play out?
Well, she might put up a fight with the big tobacco Erin Brokovich style
She can spend her time trying to find a cure or an ultimate cure not only for herself but for others.
She can of course enjoy her time with friends and family trying to come to terms with dying.
She can also try to finish her life work before dying so she would be remembered
We can of course assume she follows some new age Gwyneth Paltrow style of healing like "befriend your cancer" or "talk to your tumor" but even writing it I feel stupid.
V in Cyberpunk does nothing of those things or does all at once.

Ironic that V is not a customary smoker...

I don't think the problem is trying to place their own character on V, I think the problem has a couple different causes

They played V poorly as a character (they had no focus, or changed their focus constantly)
They can't accept the limitations of the medium in executing their charachter
They dont like what the game has to say about their choices.
They want a game where they can observe a character, not write the character.

There's not much that can be done about these issues some are built into the genre, some are built into the setting, and some are going to be based on technology/innovation/resources.

I respectfully disagree.
Player have no focus for weak plot hooks, that fail to engage the player and those who have one other than "survive" are strongly related to LI. (exept: corpo V who go in space to zero Saka, but that is in headcanon zone.)
10 years ago DA:O have more opportunity to write down personal Warden, than CP2077 offer to write down personal V.
Was very satisfied with my course of action, but in the Secret Ending I would have prefered the option to go with Nomad or go in space.

 

[Barsenthor]

I understand where you're coming from, I too had different ideas and expectations when I first started the game, the thing is they serve a purpose and that's enough for me.

And lol yeah, the community at large, such magnificent creatures .

But then we're in a thread discussing the philosophical implications (and inconsistencies) of the plot and the endings with all the plot points in between that spans over 800 pages and more than 17.000 replies (fokin really? am I reading that number right?).

I think there's values in there somewhere.

''A thing of beauty, I know...''

Yeap there is a value somewhere we just need joint-task force of Indiana Jones, Lara Croft and Nathan Drake to uncover it.

whatever philosophical implications this game tried to tell, they were long ago buried next to the flat head pet, wall running, monorail system and branching story line. What is left are some leftovers from this, that mostly doesn't make much sense. Official guide just says that endings are about fighting along Johnny (!) with Arasaka and choosing Mikoshi means being ensnared there for eternity`

I get that probably after this game will be patched (this is second half of 2021), they maybe (!) will make some expansion pack that will feel like what this game was about, and then we might (!) look for some philosophical implication. For now this game was diluted to the breaking point.

I really like stories that carry some weight with them, that there is something more behind the facade of the plot. Here? There are some elements that looks like The Heist mission in it's current form - one way ride, with many of small dead ends that pointed to the fact that before the grim reaper aka crunch came, this was truly about something more.

 

[sacred_darling]

Cool video about philosophic tropes

Oh, it's a good one. Wide as an ocean with all the references, deep as a puddle...

That's when "ambiguity" is supposed to save the day.

 

[Balmung79]

You see a glass half full, me half empty huh?
And I always play true to myself. And I don't consider Arasaka a subpar ending. In my opinion it is one of the best considering feelings , dialogue, montage and a little poeting thing : A deal with the devil that can save your soul

My V just won't give up
I have played them all except the Suicide and Secret endings, will give the latter a try tomorrow maybe. And honestly I found them all very interesting and gripping. The Devil ending with the setting in the space stations rehab facility, the ongoing frustrating examinations and tests with that bitch doctor and all those symbolism was mindblowing and, in a scary way for me, beautiful.

Whatever fits for your V is perfect. Did you go with the contract or did you leave? (You probably did both but what was more true to you?)

 

[exxxed]

-snip-

Yeah it's quite obvious the game is lacking in certain aspects, but as I keep saying, for me the bad does not cancel the good.

There's bad design choices all over, involving everything across the board.

But there's also really good ones as well.

I will respectfully disagree with your philosophical stance, the game raises many questions and it's the player's job to come up with their own answers.

 

[Barsenthor]

Yeah it's quite obvious the game is lacking in certain aspects, but as I keep saying, for me the bad does not cancel the good.

There's bad design choices all over, involving everything across the board.

But there's also really good ones as well.

I will respectfully disagree with your philosophical stance, the game raises many questions and it's the player's job to come up with their own answers.

I will disagree with this. Raising questions is cheap - anyone can do it. What is complicated and shows the true mastery is playing them out, showing you both sides or even multiple sides, and let you choose, and then shows you in clever way how those choices will plays out.
This is what made TW3 a great game. This was exactly it - the Blood Baron quest, the ghost in the tree, the state of reason quest, the Ciri quest line. This was always about this chain of events, causes and reactions. This is why TW3 is one of the greatest RPG of all time.

Here there are only questions with out anything else, later to be described as "an ambiguity". And you paid for this 60$. For play-time worth, sure I won't be complaining. But for something that was advertised as better version of TW3? F. no, not even close.

Game feels just cheap here, whole story is overinflated with its premise, it thinks that its deep only to mistaken this for edginess. The rest just suffers from this. Game feels uneven.
Some great classical tropes (side characters story arcs, Delamain, Paralez quest line) are mixed with slightly below average experiences like on-the-rail MQ filled with shocked-value firewoks, that has nothing behind it.

 

[exxxed]

I will disagree with this. Raising questions is cheap - anyone can do it. What is complicated and shows the true mastery is playing them out, showing you both sides or even multiple sides, and let you choose, and then shows you in cleaver way how those choices will plays out.
This is what made TW3 a great game. This was exactly it - the Blood Baron quest, the ghost in the tree, the state of reason quest, the Ciri quest line. This was always about this chain of events, causes and reactions. This is why TW3 is one of the greatest RPG of all time.

Here there are only questions with out anything else, later to be described as "an ambiguity". And you paid for this 60$. For play-time worth, sure I won't be complaining. But for something that was advertised as better version of TW3? F. no, not even close.

Game feels just cheap here, whole concept is overinflated with its premise, it thinks that its deep only mistaken this for edginess. The rest just suffers from this. Game feels uneven.
Some great classical tropes (side characters story arcs, Delamain, Paralez quest line) are mixed with slightly below average experiences like on-the-rail MQ filled with shocked-value firewoks, that has nothing behind it.

No, really, raising the right questions isn't cheap, quite the contrary it's essential to our evolution as humans and as a society.

It's at the very core of our species.

You're mixing in the story telling mechanics, and general gameplay mechanics, shortcomings with your own expectation for the plot, lore and ideas presented to you.

Which it seems to me is very disappointing to you.

Which is fair enough, but it does approach very deep subjects and raises awareness towards corporate control, public manipulation, environmental collapse, loss of individualism in a society without personal boundaries in a myriad of ways, quests, shards, random street events etc.

And the last part with loss of individualism is the main focus of the narrative as well as other aspects.

There are no answers to these things, or perhaps only one, abstinence. But in the age of overzealousness and mass consumption, well we're in for a wild ride so buckle up.

It could have done more with the themes, anything, and everything, can be improved at all times.

Nothing will ever suit everybody which is fine, gives things character.

 

[sacred_darling]

Which is fair enough, but it does approach very deep subjects and raises awareness towards corporate control, public manipulation, environmental collapse, loss of individualism in a society without personal boundaries in a myriad of ways, quests, shards, random street events etc.

Well, it's not the game's merit. It's the genre + Mike Pondsmith's table top. I'd say, they wouldn't even be able to create a world without touching on this subjects. It's a shame that they are dropped in most cases.

There are no answers to these things, or perhaps only one, abstinence.

Ha, that's exactly the "Goy's teeth" scene from "A Serious Man"
- These questions bothering you, maybe they're like a toothache. They will go away.
- I don't want them to go away, I want the answers!!! Why tell me the story in the first place?

Amazing 6 minutes. Can't resist sharing.

 

[exxxed]

Well, it's not the game's merit. It's the genre + Mike Pondsmith's table top. I'd say, they wouldn't even be able to create a world without touching on this subjects. It's a shame that they are dropped in most cases.

Hopefully not dropped but sidelined for other purposes, or to give way to the central plot (which you may or may not have connected with).

But yeah, let's call it sidelined.

Ha, that's exactly the "Goy's teeth" scene from "A Serious Man"
- These questions bothering you, maybe they're like a toothache. They will go away.
- I don't want them to go away, I want the answers!!! Why tell me the story in the first place?

Amazing 6 minutes. Can't resist sharing.

Golden .

 

[LordSareth]

My V just won't give up
I have played them all except the Suicide and Secret endings, will give the latter a try tomorrow maybe. And honestly I found them all very interesting and gripping. The Devil ending with the setting in the space stations rehab facility, the ongoing frustrating examinations and tests with that bitch doctor and all those symbolism was mindblowing and, in a scary way for me, beautiful.

Whatever fits for your V is perfect. Did you go with the contract or did you leave? (You probably did both but what was more true to you?)

The contract was fishy as hell. I saw it only as a copy of personality, didn't see even a posibility of continued existence like with some streching and ommisions can be done about the rest with soulkiller. So my V returned to Earth. If she will get a cure i will be happy If not well headcanon then ;D And what suited your V best?

 

[Balmung79]

The contract was fishy as hell. I saw it only as a copy of personality, didn't see even a posibility of continued existence like with some streching and ommisions can be done about the rest with soulkiller. So my V returned to Earth. If she will get a cure i will be happy If not well headcanon then ;D And what suited your V best?
[...]

So you chose something where your V can look for and find (fail as well!) a solution yourself.
Even tho I really am impressed with the Devil ending for aesthetic reasons, my Nomad-Vs favourite is the Star ending, and in both my playthroughs I romanced Panam as well. It's about what for my V matters most: the balance between individuality vs. community, freedom vs. responsibilty, trustworthyness vs. trusting others, giving vs. taking, being on-the-road vs. being-at-home at the same time, acceptance vs. hope. These and more dichotomies define my V.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Asking? wow that's an overstatement. I get the monk quest tho this is one of the shortest one.
It's literally talk to A, go down the alley (!) kill 3 gonks, press X (here talk to another monk), go to A. End.
Than we have what ever means Johnny/biochip story arc, hard to get what was it all about - something something Arasaka, something something smash Mikoshi. It's like the directors commentary about the plot ends up in the final script.

Alt/Delamein are so short that trying to make any sense of it is a head canon territory.
Mostly this is about Arasaka=Bad and classes about dying.

If you don't kill anyone the monk is happier and then shares his perspective on engrams/spirit/life if you come back later. If you kill them, hes done with you and yells at you even though the other monk thanks you.

 

[Balmung79]

If you don't kill anyone the monk is happier and then shares his perspective on engrams/spirit/life if you come back later. If you kill them, hes done with you and yells at you even though the other monk thanks you.

Can you please sum up what the monks perspective on this body-soul-issue is? I don't know whether I can find that gig in my saves to look it up myself...

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

And Sinnerman, and Zen Master, and the entirety of the main quest line...



Yes it's a video game...



It was about second chances... quite literally...

Post automatically merged: Feb 1, 2021

Same here, I quite enjoyed my Corpo playthrough and having Takemura and Oda at the end, it didn't really feel like my V sold her soul to the devil at all.

She was one of the demons to begin with .

I guess I have to see it with takamura. I didnt really look at it as selling your soul, I looked at it as Arasaka was a bad choice because they just wanted a transaction from you. Basically they want to commodify you. And since I rushed that ending, no one really talked to you/cared except Judy. And even she is looking to break away if your not jumping on a bus tomorrow.

Can you please sum up what the monks persepective on this body-soul-issue is? I don't know whether I can find that gig in my saves to look it up myself...

he believes a construct is being, but he is not sure if it can achieve reincarnation, He wonders if it can suffer (implied to be important in his religion)if I remember correctly, its been awhile.

Post automatically merged: Feb 2, 2021

The contract was fishy as hell. I saw it only as a copy of personality, didn't see even a posibility of continued existence like with some streching and ommisions can be done about the rest with soulkiller. So my V returned to Earth. If she will get a cure i will be happy If not well headcanon then ;D And what suited your V best?

yeah I didnt even read the contract, I had Hellman talking, and overall Arasaka treatment, and Hellman's words didnt seem believable. Seems like they either wanted to close the book on the commitment, or wanted to own Vs consciousness. Seemed like a squeeze play. I said ef you, I'd rather do it myself.

 

[nadsh]

The zen master also talks about engrams having a soul in the final meditation, he sees Johnny and V as two souls in one body.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

The zen master also talks about engrams having a soul in the final meditation, he sees Johnny and V as two souls in one body.

he also says, if you choose a certain option he is trying to prepare you to make the right decision, I wonder what that meant. Also its implied Johnny didnt see him.

It could be a clue for the secret ending, but that didnt seem to be a very Zen ending, and you can't play BDs, so I dunno.

 

[Balmung79]

The zen master also talks about engrams having a soul in the final meditation, he sees Johnny and V as two souls in one body.

Thx, I remember that. Quite a difference between Alt's perspective and the monk's perspective, anyone have an explanation at hand for that?

he also says, if you choose a certain option he is trying to prepare you to make the right decision, I wonder what that meant. Also its implied Johnny didnt see him.

It could be a clue for the secret ending, but that didnt seem to be a very Zen ending, and you can't play BDs, so I dunno.

What I found interesting, also might be totally irrelevant, is the course of the Zen masters quest. You are leaving the center of Night City gradually. Park in the very middle of NC, then more outside (still city-center-ish), then suburban-ish and finally the look from the very border of the city and a quite weary Johnny. Is it like a foreshadowing of the Star ending?