State of ST - How we got here and what can be done

[Trantyn]

State of ST - How we got here and what can be done

First off, I realize that there is another ST thread on this forum, but it doesn't really address these issues.

Secondly, I've been playing, almost exclusively, ST since I started playing Gwent right before the Positioning Patch and still do. I really like the ideas behind both new Movement and Mulligan archetypes, but they seem unfinished and Ambush could use another bronze card - maybe an ambush card that Springs only when Bronze weather is played on the row and blocks the Bronze weather like Ida used to block Special Cards.

History:

ST got crushed in the transition to Open Beta because everyone who wasn't in the top 1000 was complaining about them being too powerful - when in reality their cards were just about right to slightly under-powered. Ambush was fixed and then dismantled. CDPR seemed reluctant to give ST cards much power at the start of OB (just like Henselt was destroyed and Consume was nerfed) for fear of ST staying Tier 1.5ish.

The biggest hit to ST wasn't the nerf of cards or changing to a couple of half-finished archtypes, though. The biggest nerf that no one is talking about was losing their Faction Ability. It's an enormous smack to ST that was seemingly unaccounted for when OB started. ST in Closed Beta is nowhere near Tier 1.5 without their faction ability. In effect, ST was double nerfed.

Anyway - ST currently has problems with:


Bronze:

Hawker Smuggler - Was already under-powered when compared to SK Bears because it boosts itself and can be reset. Now...

Dol Blathanna Marksmen - On this list because the card is still bugged. It should be able to hit a unit on your side of the battlefield when deployed (it always could before and it says it still can - but it can't). It was ST's way of dealing with Cows.

Commando Neophyte - Cool idea for a card, however, unlike SK Discard, most of the time that you mulligan a card (between rounds) you can't have this card on the battlefield.



Silver:

Ida Emean - The worst Silver Mage by far. The only Silver Mage without an offensive spell and weird to play because, unlike the other Silver Mages, you need to decide pretty early if you're going to use her for Quen or hold her for Clear Skies. Quen should be dropped and replaced with Arachas Venom and her power reduced to 3.

Malena - Pretty cool idea for a card, on paper. In reality this card is holding up a big neon sign that says WEATHER THIS ROW.

Ciaran - The worst Silver Lock, again, by far. Sure, you can use it to set up Igni (or have Iorveth hit it, lol), but it's nothing like a double lock, a reset unit lock, a steal a card from your opponent's deck lock or a damage power by half lock. Not even close.

Ele'yas - Seriously laughable... the worst Silver Card in the game. This SILVER card's maximum strength is 9. Maximum.



Gold:

Iorveth - Another cool idea for a card. However, it's impractical to use because it's slow and ST gains more power by moving their own units around.

Isengrim - Not a terrible card, at all. On this list purely because ST could really use at least another Bronze Ambush card.

Saesenthessis - I don't know how to fix this card's ability. It's a First Round card and if you don't get it then it's basically worthless because it'll never reach real Gold potential.

Milva - Another card that I don't have a problem with and only on this list because I see complaints about it. The change to Milva's ability was needed and the card still does what it was originally intended to do. A great play with most ST decks other than Dwarves. In the right matchup, it's a game winner - especially in this meta.

Aglais - Sigh. Talk about going from the top of the hill to the bottom. She needs a total re-work or at the very minimum get rid of the Effort tag from her - at least that way she'd at worst be Geralt.


On the other side of the spectrum we do have an over-powered card in the Bronze and one that somehow got buffed in the last patch even though it's been over-powered since OB started. The Dol Blathanna Trapper should have a 2 turn counter on the Fireball Trap like the NG Cows do.


If a card isn't on this list it means that I don't have a problem with them one way or the other. Let me know what you think.

 

[Auracide]

I dislike people that play the scoiatel spell deck

 

[MrRagdoll]

If I could physically put my hands on people that play scoiatel spell deck I would

Spell'Tiel is maybe the easiest deck to counter in this game. All you need to do is force win on round one and keep playing turn 2 as long as possible, forcing opponent to use unit as they only have 3 in the whole deck.

 

[privalov]

I think spell deck could use some unit-creating spells, like Lingering Souls in Magic.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Just to add to this... Ambush can be effective in some cases, such as vs weather, as the units do not flip immediately. It gets held back because there is little variety. With only three ambush units it's not very difficult to know which has been played. Toruvial is a dead giveaway. The only time this isn't the case is if you position her sub-optimally, and even then it isn't a foolproof way to protect her from locks or adjacent unit kills/moves. It seems awkward to have a concept designed around surprise to provide no such advantage.

Sappers feel a bit underpowered at a 7 power. 8 might be alright. 9 might even be reasonable given the ability for the card to end up as a dead card. Due to limited variety you almost have to bring a Sapper to bait locks off Toruvial. It's not an ideal situation. The only saving grace to Sappers is they're immune to damage prior to flipping.

Morenn is a surprisingly powerful card when played properly. She gets first dibs on opponent card plays. This means she can drop effect units before they deploy the effect. Once again, she is held back by the fact Ambush has very little element of surprise. Furthermore, the card can end up dead, thus providing no points. She really should either flip on passes, like Toruvial, given a power increase or reworked. Personally, I think her effect is a bit too potent in some cases. Lock units do not work on her, which is inconsistent with their operation on other ambushes. Cyprian also does not work against her. It seems reasonable to give her a power buff, rework when her effect triggers (after locks/Cyprian) and add a flip on opponent pass mechanism.

I will say the Toruvial/Aelrinn synergy is a nice feature. It really can leave the opponent in shock when they do not account for the extra 6-8 points. That mechanic is what ambush should provide. However, the predictability in both the general and specific sense holds the cards back. Either we need more ambush units or the concept needs to go away entirely, with all applicable cards getting a rework.

Mulligan is an interesting mechanic. Unfortunately, it also has it's issues. The mulligan mechanic itself often leads to nothing but recycling cards. In some cases this is good. In many it is not good. The other weak point is the fact you must carry significant bronze mulligan units for the concept to work. This leaves little room for specials, cheap counter cards and a decent bronze selection.

Neophytes should get a rework. It takes too much setup for a bronze 7 to gain value. It's too heavily reliant on a leader play, as only Vrihedd Officers and Francesca have synergy with the card. To compound matters the random 2 damage often is nothing but flat damage. Often by the time it hits the opponent has at least 2-3 cards out. There is no way to funnel it where it needs to go. This is a huge drawback because any type of damage/control has to be directed to perform optimally. The only exception is if it provides some other type of synergy (such as SK bears). Clearly, this isn't the case for the card.

Wardancers could possibly get a rework. The card is an excellent thin option, or to bar instant R2 opponent passes if they win R1. Drawing it for your final mulligan, especially in R3, or pulling it with a rally is the bad news. These two aspects can really make the card hurt you given the 3 power. And forgive me, but getting burned by own my cards like that doesn't seem reasonable.

Overall the mulligan concept has so much potential. Despite the flaws it can be fun to include the cards in a deck. It would be a shame to see it go to waste.

I think Trantyn did a good job pointing out weakness in the gold/silver cards. A couple more additions.... I do feel Brouver should go back to being able to pull any silver, instead of only units. Dragoons could possibly be reworked. If they get sniped they provide no benefit, since they don't trigger until the start of your turn. Unlike other units with a similar conditional power +/- effect they're unable to be replayed as well. Lastly, Hawker Healers seem like they never get used...

 

[Cantina12]

(Raises Hand) Um. I play an Elf movement/damage deck and it can be fun. The trouble is the sodding game hates giving me gold cards. (Shakes fist).

But....

There are a lot of issues.

Only way for me to deal with spies is to have a Bear eat them OR have my Brigade or Dwarf Card move my card out of the way. Downside of using the Brigade is I lose a remove weather and a movement for Iroveth to hit an enemy. If the card is low on health, I just let it go.

Malena is not intended to be used on your side. You drop her on an enemy side and she moves their cards. Thus every time she moves one and Iroveth is on the board he will hit the target. Trouble I run into is not getting Iroveth in my deck. Also its a very tricky card to use especially against Nilf.

Iroveth -I really wish he did more damage. For a gold card, you only do TWO damage every time an enemy card moves. Really? Two fracking damage for a gold card? Lighting Bolt does more damage and its a Bronze card.

I really do not see the fun at all playing a spell spam or booster deck in this deck or any other. I think what hurts the decks is developers set them up this way and its a terrible design. Because poor design decks are subjected to players abusing them just to get that win. I sure the hell hope the Elf deck gets some serious love cause it desperately needs it.

 

[Burza46]

First off, I realize that there is another ST thread on this forum, but it doesn't really address these issues.

Secondly, I've been playing, almost exclusively, ST since I started playing Gwent right before the Positioning Patch and still do. I really like the ideas behind both new Movement and Mulligan archetypes, but they seem unfinished and Ambush could use another bronze card - maybe an ambush card that Springs only when Bronze weather is played on the row and blocks the Bronze weather like Ida used to block Special Cards.

History:

ST got crushed in the transition to Open Beta because everyone who wasn't in the top 1000 was complaining about them being too powerful - when in reality their cards were just about right to slightly under-powered. Ambush was fixed and then dismantled. CDPR seemed reluctant to give ST cards much power at the start of OB (just like Henselt was destroyed and Consume was nerfed) for fear of ST staying Tier 1.5ish.

The biggest hit to ST wasn't the nerf of cards or changing to a couple of half-finished archtypes, though. The biggest nerf that no one is talking about was losing their Faction Ability. It's an enormous smack to ST that was seemingly unaccounted for when OB started. ST in Closed Beta is nowhere near Tier 1.5 without their faction ability. In effect, ST was double nerfed.

Anyway - ST currently has problems with:


Bronze:

Hawker Smuggler - Was already under-powered when compared to SK Bears because it boosts itself and can be reset. Now...

Dol Blathanna Marksmen - On this list because the card is still bugged. It should be able to hit a unit on your side of the battlefield when deployed (it always could before and it says it still can - but it can't). It was ST's way of dealing with Cows.

Commando Neophyte - Cool idea for a card, however, unlike SK Discard, most of the time that you mulligan a card (between rounds) you can't have this card on the battlefield.



Silver:

Ida Emean - The worst Silver Mage by far. The only Silver Mage without an offensive spell and weird to play because, unlike the other Silver Mages, you need to decide pretty early if you're going to use her for Quen or hold her for Clear Skies. Quen should be dropped and replaced with Arachas Venom and her power reduced to 3.

Malena - Pretty cool idea for a card, on paper. In reality this card is holding up a big neon sign that says WEATHER THIS ROW.

Ciaran - The worst Silver Lock, again, by far. Sure, you can use it to set up Igni (or have Iorveth hit it, lol), but it's nothing like a double lock, a reset unit lock, a steal a card from your opponent's deck lock or a damage power by half lock. Not even close.

Ele'yas - Seriously laughable... the worst Silver Card in the game. This SILVER card's maximum strength is 9. Maximum.



Gold:

Iorveth - Another cool idea for a card. However, it's impractical to use because it's slow and ST gains more power by moving their own units around.

Isengrim - Not a terrible card, at all. On this list purely because ST could really use at least another Bronze Ambush card.

Saesenthessis - I don't know how to fix this card's ability. It's a First Round card and if you don't get it then it's basically worthless because it'll never reach real Gold potential.

Milva - Another card that I don't have a problem with and only on this list because I see complaints about it. The change to Milva's ability was needed and the card still does what it was originally intended to do. A great play with most ST decks other than Dwarves. In the right matchup, it's a game winner - especially in this meta.

Aglais - Sigh. Talk about going from the top of the hill to the bottom. She needs a total re-work or at the very minimum get rid of the Effort tag from her - at least that way she'd at worst be Geralt.


On the other side of the spectrum we do have an over-powered card in the Bronze and one that somehow got buffed in the last patch even though it's been over-powered since OB started. The Dol Blathanna Trapper should have a 2 turn counter on the Fireball Trap like the NG Cows do.


If a card isn't on this list it means that I don't have a problem with them one way or the other. Let me know what you think.

We are looking into Scoia'tael especialy into the movement and mulligan archetypes. Also, moving forward we need to look into weather, since it's auto-include in a majority of the decks.

 

[eillinggel]

We are looking into Scoia'tael especialy into the movement and mulligan archetypes. Also, moving forward we need to look into weather, since it's auto-include in a majority of the decks.

ST gold cards really sucks..milva,aglais,Saesenthessis,Isengrim....

 

[eillinggel]

If milva cant get card advantage,she has no value at all .All the gold cards are useful than her,she does not worth taking a gold slot.Her condition is too harsh，opponent cant pass,there must be non-gold cards on the opponent's battlefield.Why I take a so awkward so unstable and may be no profit gold card. I need a reason

 

[Razhael]

If milva cant get card advantage,she has no value at all .All the gold cards are useful than her,she does not worth taking a gold slot

She's was always meant to be a utility gold. Ie returning a fully buffed Brigade | Axemen | Protector, whilst simultaneously returning a unit of your own that wouldn't suffer from being returned. In order to then reuse that units deploy effects. Making her strength 9 + whatever boost that the enemy lost + whatever strength you could gain from replaying a deploy ability.

Her roach interaction was pure BS.

As is, she's actually an interesting card again, if although not competetively viable with the current card pool.

 

[eillinggel]

She's was always meant to be a utility gold. Ie returning a fully buffed Brigade | Axemen | Protector, whilst simultaneously returning a unit of your own that wouldn't suffer from being returned. In order to then reuse that units deploy effects. Making her strength 9 + whatever boost that the enemy lost + whatever strength you could gain from replaying a deploy ability.

Her roach interaction was pure BS.

As is, she's actually an interesting card again, if although not competetively viable with the current card pool.

Dont like these cards that are too difficult to use,everyone loves the card that can bring in great profits.Such as Hjalimar,Coral,Tibor,woodland spirit....

 

[lomvicmarko]

We are looking into Scoia'tael especialy into the movement and mulligan archetypes. Also, moving forward we need to look into weather, since it's auto-include in a majority of the decks.

Give us back old play style that ST had. I really don't care about movement and mulligan. Ward dancer ruined, BMC ruined,elven merc ruined, hawker healer nerfed a lot, Ida was good ambush card now its trash, Fireball/neophyte did really need to be removed ? Vrihedd Sappers, wow nice ambush it just turns over lol(I would be ok in old ST when we acctually used ambush cards), Ciaran was awesome card now it just bad lock card, natures gift why ruin it this much?

I don't mind new archetypes but you guys went overboard and removed everything i liked about ST. I really miss my dorf buff/ambush deck, it wasn't even a good at the time but was fun....
So you guys took arguably weakest faction and nerfed it into the ground with changing core bronze cards into your new archetype. Create new cards to dump on old ones, at least not this much....

 

[Vladi999]

My problem with Gwent is that you can always predict what your opponent is playing....
Broover --> Dwarfes. Dagon --> weather spam/foglings. And the archetype leader cards just force you to include cards with this archetype.
You see francesca and you keep scorch and madroeme for the last round for example...
You see Brann you know if its not quennsguards it will be kambi round 3...
No surprises in gwent at all.
Ambush ST was sooo intence to play against because you dont know if its shirru or a fireball trap or ciaran. If i play against ambush i feel that i play a really good card game! Is it a super powerful shirru? Or is it a ciaran bate. This pokerface actions were that good as a plot twist in game of thrones or witcher 3.
I hope you will bring the old ST back:victory:

 

[Iuliandrei]

What if instead of highest, you could choose which card to throw back in hand with Milva? one for you and one for opponent.

 

[sbxsat]

I think the problem is developers only looking at numbers and also doing knee-jerk changes when players cry about a faction being too strong. It is impossible to make a balanced game. Instead, what CDPR can do is prevent one faction from totally dominating the others. There will always be a faction that is slightly stronger than the rest but the solution isn't to nerf that faction and buff the rest up. Rather, it's to tone down the card that made that faction too strong and leave cards from the other factions alone. Let the changes take effect and see if they improve the overall balance. To make broad sweeping changes at once will create new problems.

A simple analogy is that if you want to treat a particular disease, you only administer one medication at a time and then monitor the patient to see if that drug has worked. What CDPR did was administer ten different medications and hoped for the best outcome. If the patient did survive, they have no idea which of the ten medications did the job. In fact, introducing ten new variables to the patient made the patient worse.

An example of the detriments of changing so many variables at once is the savage bear effect. They reduced the power of vicavaro novices and at the same time buffed the bears. You can't nerf faction X and buff faction Y because X always dominated Y. They need to tone down faction X then see what it's effects are on factions Y and Z.

Gwent is the only game where I've seen open beta changed so much from close beta, it's practically become a new game.

They also need to perform root cause analysis.

Look at the changes for NG. They reduced the power of golems from 3 to 2. We all know the power of golems did not have anything to do with how strong NG was. CDPR didn't seem to understand that because all they heard from the masses was golems were too strong! It wasn't. Other factions have tempo cards as well. The problem was NG having SEVERAL deck thinning cards. The COMBINATION of vicavaro novices, medics and golems was what pushed NG over the top.

I have this gut feeling that CDPR is going to do another knee-jerk reaction and destroy spell ST because the masses are screaming for it. It's a pain to play against but so too is the SK axemen. In fact, a lot of cards are annoying when they are used against you. The people that are crying about weather being too powerful also seem to run them in their decks. In fact, gold weather cards were one of the first ones they crafted. The irony!

 

[Laveley]

also, moving forward we need to look into weather, since it's auto-include in a majority of the decks.

yes!! Please!!!! Do it!!!!

 

[Trantyn]

If milva cant get card advantage,she has no value at all .All the gold cards are useful than her,she does not worth taking a gold slot.Her condition is too harsh，opponent cant pass,there must be non-gold cards on the opponent's battlefield.Why I take a so awkward so unstable and may be no profit gold card. I need a reason

There's nothing wrong with Milva. She does exactly what she's supposed to do and can win games for you.

 

[Ecceptor]

I think they can explore more hand-buffing archetype for ST. It's fun in closed beta with ambush. Maybe add bronze card with Braenn ability but have weaker body.

 

[fartingunicorn]

I think they can explore more hand-buffing archetype for ST. It's fun in closed beta with ambush. Maybe add bronze card with Braenn ability but have weaker body.

Hand-buffing is what make the elves decks as it is very predictable though. Everyone is holding scorch, Peter, mushrooms for last round. ST should be the most unpredictable faction but it just seem to be the opposite nowdays.

I think they can make ambush more unique with more cards. One more for each different type of trigger. If not new cards then they can rework old dead ones.
eg: Opponent-passed trigger should have another one besides Toruviel. Another one for timer (with different timer) etc.

 

[jamai36]

When I re-started Gwent in the OB I spent awhile looking at the factions, deciding which one I would play. I was drawn to ST primarily just because.. they're the outcasts? They're green? I also liked the nature theme and am always drawn to nature themes in card games. So - ST is was.

Dwarf decks were too proactive and not my style, whereas people were starting to become aware of the Eithne spell decks and completely despised the archetype as a whole. I didn't want to be one of THOSE guys so I stuck with Francesca.

I started collecting ST cards, assembling the deck and held off on looking at the silvers and golds that were obviously there to support the archetype - you know - how almost every other archetrype has 1-2 of each.

I hit 800 scraps and gleefully loaded up the collection menu to see what awesome golds and silvers there were to start filling out my deck and... I sat there puzzled.
'Wait... what? Where did the mulligan golds and silvers go? Am I missing something?'
There were none.
Then I got an Iorveth in a pack and was so excited to instead go for a movement deck and...
There was almost nothing that moved enemies - the only ones that did gave bigger bonuses for moving your own stuff.
What's with these ambush cards and the hand buffing cards - why are there so many half-complete mini archetypes within ST?

So I abandoned ST - the faction just doesn't feel complete at all. Played hundreds of games with Eredin and Dagon, but my heart still lies with ST. Come on CDPR!