Swordplay and Artificial Intelligence

[B_l_a_d_y]

Swordplay and Artificial Intelligence

Just drop some of my thoughts




Al witchers are known for their unmatched speed witch gives them absolute advantage on the battlefield. This is many times mentioned in books, and looks impressive in cgi trailer. Theirs abilities should be also used in designing fighting mechanics. Player should win fights by using his this suberb speed not by stupid AI.

Let mi show you
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6odlMUASV8Q[/media]

Every enemy gently waits for his turn to attack, they have never strike all at once. This is simply retarded.
In witcher they could fight realistically together and player would kill them using his speed and reflex. There is no need to make dumb opponents if player is killing machine.
Fights would be realistic and also changeling if AI would play dirty with player.
Group enemies cooperating, flanking player , soldiers making formations from shields like turtle or defending in line archers shooting at you.

Such level of AI is nowhere to be found in modern gaming. Witcher 3 could easily become milestone in RPG genre and maybe new king of it.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc[/media]
There is example how fast was medieval fight.


Just imagine group of approaching soldiers making wall of shields, direct attack ends in failure but you can use aard sign on the ground and make big cloud of dust and attack them from behind, or trow a bomb and tear them apart in huge explosion, even use axii and break their formation. Souch possibilities would add variety to combat and make it fun, challenging and new.


any feedback would be nice

 

[shawn_kh]

I agree that the fight can be more cinematic and they can even implement some Assassin's creed and Batman Arkham origins flavor to the mix, but don't forget that all enemies don't use double handed swords, some use shield and short swords.
My problem was that Geralt fought like a regular soldier in Witcher 2 and I had to resort to rolling around the battlefield like an idiot waiting for vigor to regenerate. While in the books Geralt is described as a stylish swordsman who while wielding a sword daces and ends lives with quick and swift blows. So instead of rolling around I'd like to see more blocking, counter attacks, and pirouette like dodges.

 

[username_3671363]

Yeah man I totally agree that AI is usually completely useless in most of the RPGS I have played, my biggest dissapointment was by far Gothic 3, and Dark Souls a bit, the game was hard at the beginning but once you get the moveset of the opponent (and Havel's Shield ^^) it's actually piss easy, at that point of the game the only thing that can kill you is gravity />

Anyway I agree that it should indeed be done like that and make the AI play dirty but only in the case that it gives you official tools to reposte these mechanics. What I mean by that is that for instance TW2\s AI could actually surround you but if you spammed roll you could easily avoid that, but it didn't feel good. So I'm suggesting that it should give you the means to avoid getting surrounded without abusing that ability.

From the things I read about TW3 it will give you a lot more control over combat than the previous games, and if that control is combined with decent AI that makes the game realistically challenging for me it will be a success.

 

[B_l_a_d_y]

I agree that the fight can be more cinematic and they can even implement some Assassin's creed ...

God NO! I used video form AC to show how stupid it looks


@ Arclavum
CDPR confirmed that there will be no rolling in W3. Geralt's speed should balance the difficulity of cooperating AI

 

[GuyNwah]

Witcher 2 already improves on the conventional "wait for your turn to attack" implementation by allowing all enemies in range to engage you at once. This is why getting attacked by five mooks in the Prologue or surrounded by drowners in Act I is so frustrating to newcomers. It also puts enemies in roles, so you get archers and battlemages firing at you while you are in close combat.

What it doesn't do is go so far as you suggest, and give enemies coordination and tactics. Enemies still fight individually, even if they fight all at once instead of one at a time. Troops with more discipline than a mob of rioters should know to do better when facing a dangerous opponent like the White Wolf.

 

[Alpha8Wolf]

I totally agree! Especially about the AI. Blady, I think Shawn meant that he wanted the cool cinematic counter attacks and pirouettes from AC, not the stupid AI.

I know that Geralt is supposed to be very fast, but maybe adding that to the game might be a negative, unless it is done the very right way

A smart AI would be an awesome add to the list that would prove CDPR to be the best ever! Nice thread.

 

[shawn_kh]

God NO! I used video form AC to show how stupid it looks />/>/>/>/>


@ Arclavum
CDPR confirmed that there will be no rolling in W3. Geralt's speed should balance the difficulity of cooperating AI

I didn't mean completely similar, there are some good elements in it though although I prefer Batman's. Witcher 2's combat is stale and it doesn't require any skill and timing and you had to follow the same strategy for all enemies. witch was cast quen, light strike, heavy strike, heavy strike, get hit, quen goes away, roll, roll, roll, vigor regenerates, quen, strike light, ...
I like to see pirouette dodges, blocks and counter attacks, and faster kills with 2-3 blows. Witchers are fast killing machines not brawlers. ACs combat is ridiculously slow and repetitive and worse than all enemies wait turns to get killed, but you have to differentiate between enemy types and there are some cool cinematic elements there that if used properly add to the experience. Batman's is fast in the sense of countering and counter attack but it usually goes on for too long because you have to keep punching the enemies.
I just want to see Geralt fight in a faster and more efficient way, where his increased speed and strength is used properly. If all enemies attack you at once and Geralt isn't a fast swordsmen who blocks, counter attacks, and dodges the enemy attacks, then you'll keep dying.

 

[nukeheal]

family friendly games.

 

[Sirnaq]

How to deal with charging group of monsters by CDPR themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y62IcPh_tnY

Come to think of it, now that we have jumping in the game, wouldn't it be cool to have run and jump attack in actual combat? I remember geralt doing such attacks in books. Actually even in the prolog of the new book storm season.

 

[jjavier]

Sorry, but I don't think batman or AC ar god combat models for TW games.

In AC, your foes literally form a line for you.
In batman, you jump right in the middle of 50 foes and kick every one ass by smashing butons.

Don't get my wrong I enjoy that in these games, but it has nothing to do with TW lore.

As geralt you are skilled but vunerable. If you are careless or you bite more that you can, you wil die. It is the way is suposed to be. I hope CDProyect keep faithful to that.

 

[alextyc1]

Sorry, but I don't think batman or AC ar god combat models for TW games.

In AC, your foes literally form a line for you.
In batman, you jump right in the middle of 50 foes and kick every one ass by smashing butons.

Don't get my wrong y enjoy that in these games, but it has nothing to do with TW lore.

As geralt you are skilled but vunerable. If you are careless or you bite more that you can, you wil die. It is the way is suposed to be. I hope CDProyect keep faithful to that.

You know that TW2 combat was partly inspired by arkham asylum right?

(And Arkham games combat is not button smashing type of combat)

 

[Osiris666]

ot: these fencing guys in 2nd video are from my city

 

[FoggyFishburne]

I'm just going to drop my words of wisdom here and I'll let you deduce what the fuck it means. Can't be bothered to explain it right now.

A game isn't supposed to be realistic, rather it has to be authentic.

Feel free to quote me on it once you've figured out my brilliance. Though state your sources. I want recognition. Game design is my forté.

 

[ONLY_ONCE]

How to deal with charging group of monsters by CDPR themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y62IcPh_tnY

Come to think of it, now that we have jumping in the game, wouldn't it be cool to have run and jump attack in actual combat? I remember geralt doing such attacks in books. Actually even in the prolog of the new book storm season.

Yeah, if CDPR forgets to add some cool looking jump attacks for Geralt, It might be a deal breaker.
Hey you know if Geralt will be able to walk/move while he is in block stance? I hope so..

 

[jjavier]

You know that TW2 combat was partly inspired by arkham asylum right?

(And Arkham games combat is not button smashing type of combat)

No I didn't know that.
I think TW2's combat is based in Dark Souls's combat.

The last time I hear/read TW2's combat was partially based on B:AA was in 2010 (before the game was released).

 

[ONLY_ONCE]

I'm just going to drop my words of wisdom here and I'll let you deduce what the fuck it means. Can't be bothered to explain it right now.

A game isn't supposed to be realistic, rather it has to be authentic.

Feel free to quote me on it once you've figured out my brilliance. Though state your sources. I want recognition. Game design is my forté.

That is like saying games are not art. The more realistic the better the game.
This is not mario brothers lol.. This is TW3

 

[Garrison72]

-boxing and fencing should be a major inspiration. No game has ever captured the speed and intensity of real melee. Not even close. And don't say Dark Souls does, because in that game you have all the speed of a drunken lumberjack.

-TW2 already has auto-riposte upon parry. It's based on chance. Get rid of the dice roll and call it a counter. Have the counter animation play out twice as fast as a regular attack so it's a guaranteed hit. Have ripostes in there too, but make them inflict more damage than a proper counter, because they take longer to execute.

-implement a knockback effect when Geralt times his parry right. This in turn allows time for a riposte, dagger, sign, etc, or a chance to stun.

-have enemy AI based on the type of weapon they wield. A pike man shouldn't be swinging his pike as if it's a short sword.

-bring back group melee. It doesn't have to be in the same OP form of TW1, but its absence in TW2 was painfully apparent. Geralt, the famous White Wolf, had no real group melee skills. To remedy this, maybe Geralt could string attacks among multiple enemies once they are close together, dancing from foe to foe in a flash. Ideally, the player would still be controlling the action. Think Arkham Asylum on crack.

-bullet time on cue as a special ability. The devs have already hinted something like this may be in the works, a modified version of the slow time spell in the magic tree.

-attack simultaneously with a dodge. This would work by pressing attack key immediately after we press two keys (or double tap one key) to dodge. This way, we not only have lateral movement, we have a lateral attack.

-bring back monster special abilities.

~the end

 

[Gordyne]

-boxing and fencing should be a major inspiration. No game has ever captured the speed and intensity of real melee. Not even close. And don't say Dark Souls does because in that game you have all the speed of a drunken lumberjack.

-TW2 already has auto-riposte upon parry, but it's based on chance. Get rid of the dice roll and call it a counter. Have the counter animation play out twice as fast as a regular attack so it's a guaranteed hit. Have ripostes in there too, but make them inflict more damage than a proper counter, because they take longer to execute.

-implement a knockback effect when Geralt times his parry right. This in turn allows time for a riposte, dagger, sign, etc, or has a chance to stun.

-have enemy AI based on the type of weapon they wield. A pike man shouldn't be swinging his pike as if it's a short sword.

-bring back group melee. It doesn't have to be in the same OP form of TW1, but it's absence in TW2 was painfully apparent. Geralt, the famous White Wolf, had no real group melee skills. To remedy this, maybe Geralt could string attacks among multiple enemies once they are close together, dancing from foe to foe in a flash. Ideally, the player would still be controlling the action. Think Arkham Asylum on crack.

-bullet time on cue as a special ability. The devs have already hinted something like this may be in the works, a modified version of the slow time spell in the magic tree.

-attack simultaneously with a dodge. This would work by pressing attack key immediately after we press two keys ( or double tap one key) to to dodge. This way, we not only have lateral movement, we have a lateral attack.

-bring back monster special abilities.

Good points!

IMHO they also should give us real control over Geralt, like RotS mod does, however AI should be more capable, not just mad rushing like they are now.

The AI in TW2 is not aN AI, sadly. They're bots wItH overpowered abilities like blocKing in the middlE of their own attacks(two-handed and shield bearers), while geralt can't do this.

AI should learn from your attacks, example: Spammed whirlwind like attack two times, next whirlwind will be blocked by enemies that were close to you, you have to attack with a different move that they don't expect, or else they'll block it.

Geralt should be more capable of handling groups and riposte without taking damage from others around him.

Also, he shouldn't bump if an enemy parries him, it's just silly...

I felt really underpowered as geralt in TW2 vanilla, they should give us REAL control over what geralt does and develop AI to be much better.

 

[shawn_kh]

-boxing and fencing should be a major inspiration. No game has ever captured the speed and intensity of real melee. Not even close. And don't say Dark Souls does because in that game you have all the speed of a drunken lumberjack.

-TW2 already has auto-riposte upon parry, but it's based on chance. Get rid of the dice roll and call it a counter. Have the counter animation play out twice as fast as a regular attack so it's a guaranteed hit. Have ripostes in there too, but make them inflict more damage than a proper counter, because they take longer to execute.

-implement a knockback effect when Geralt times his parry right. This in turn allows time for a riposte, dagger, sign, etc, or has a chance to stun.

-have enemy AI based on the type of weapon they wield. A pike man shouldn't be swinging his pike as if it's a short sword.

-bring back group melee. It doesn't have to be in the same OP form of TW1, but it's absence in TW2 was painfully apparent. Geralt, the famous White Wolf, had no real group melee skills. To remedy this, maybe Geralt could string attacks among multiple enemies once they are close together, dancing from foe to foe in a flash. Ideally, the player would still be controlling the action. Think Arkham Asylum on crack.

-bullet time on cue as a special ability. The devs have already hinted something like this may be in the works, a modified version of the slow time spell in the magic tree.

-attack simultaneously with a dodge. This would work by pressing attack key immediately after we press two keys ( or double tap one key) to to dodge. This way, we not only have lateral movement, we have a lateral attack.

-bring back monster special abilities.

~the end

http://global3.memecdn.com/vaas-approved-your-post_o_1942501.jpg

 

[erkam]

I think that players skills can only be challenged by iimplementing 8 or 9 buttons each with a different function with combinations. This could be ragarding the movements, stances, pirouttes, and simple slashes of many kind and directions. But this could be very hard for casual players.