I think I should give my opinion on this, so apologies in advance.As my reservations stand, leave the full on stuff for modders and folk who wish to sit through 2 minuets of digital porn, I have no problems with it myself and would probably be intrigued to see what can be done. Whilst I agree that leaving something to the imagination adds something to the moment, being prudish about adult content in an adult orientated game is not realistic and holds a metaphoric sealing on creativity and realism. I do not find the sexual content of the game to be worthy of an 18 rating, the healthy level of profanities is another story but the sex card's are hardly a motivation for myself. I would like to see a short provocative scene 'non graphic', mainly to add depth and meaning to NPC interaction, the encounters as they stand are tame and un-rewarding, the blurred scene provides a week sexual innuendo, and does not provide any notable or differentials between NPC individuality. To portray all women as this one blurry motion is a crime, what cut scene's there are allows you to appreciate a mediocre level of lust and urge between interacting characters, you can't have realism and be a prude.Personally I think they can push the boundary's a bit further and should, if you wish to aspire for realism, allow a sexual connection to be more engrossing and less shallow, why should an adult game be more constricted then an adult movie......not a porno.......Whilst a sex scene in movies allows men to grab another beer, the objective is to get you to care about the individual and a sexual encounter provides the ultimate show of raw, exposed human quality's required to see a level of intimacy adequate to portray or evoke the correct emotion, thus contributing to the realism intended for adult consumer gaming.
I'm so glad you did -- I think you expressed things beautifully!Karmarapture said:
Agreed, if people wish to stay un-educated I have little time for them, it is narrow minded and pointless but typical of those who do not understand the nature of the beast.
Geralt would have lost count, plus he has a bad memory......LOLI've had the same mental image, little notes in the journal with a list of names and like a ranking system!
@Kelticpete, @Fraser, @Karmarapture @didi510 and everyone who agrees with me and them:As the OP of this topic, I want to say that it really gave me relief to find out that I am not the only one who finds the sexuality in the game, weak. I mean, weakness would not be important at all if it didn't decrease (from my point of view) the will to go on any further. I finished the game, thrice, with different options, that's another story, but it was because of the story and the quests within and the sheer beauty of the 3D atmosphere, the power and realism of the combat, even the weather change.The eroticism in the game started to become something funny (I imagined the same checklist ) and unimportant, even a waste of time. But this must not be like this. As I have mentioned before, a witcher is a unique character in the RPG world and his physical prowess, his superhuman powers, also in means of sexuality, had to be underlined in a more complex and cinematographic way. Every single scene in the game except sex, is wonderfully crafted. Kelticpete, I believe the same, the Vesna encounter as a whole, is beautifully represented. A story within a story (The rescue of Vesna from thugs, the protection of Vesna from barghests, the gratitude and the watermill scene as a whole). A camera sweep inside the watermill was lacking in my opinion, a mere period of up to 10 seconds at most, showing Vesna and Geralt having sex within limits and whoosh, the camera gets out of the window across the room. That's it. But that would be cinematographic. And afterwards, if you go to the inn and talk to Vesna, she just asks you: "What will it be??" as in "What do you want to drink??". For God's sake, woman, didn't your encounter with him mean ANYTHING at all??Now, the important thing is, maybe except the hookers, courtesans, all the encounters between Geralt and different women (in my opinion) have to be in the same way with the proposed format. (A story within a story, a special quest maybe (the mean players would choose not to play the game in a "rude" way), 10 second intimacy scenes within a 30 second special movie (Vesna scene), and flexible interaction (before intimacy, after intmacy) ).That would be, in my opinion, a fair and equal construction.I am glad I posted this topic 8)Please go on posting and game widow, thank you very much for your support to this topic, in this sensible matter.All of you, "make love while making war" and take care
) and unimportant, even a waste of time. But this must not be like this. As I have mentioned before, a witcher is a unique character in the RPG world and his physical prowess, his superhuman powers, also in means of sexuality, had to be underlined in a more complex and cinematographic way. Every single scene in the game except sex, is wonderfully crafted. Kelticpete, I believe the same, the Vesna encounter as a whole, is beautifully represented. A story within a story (The rescue of Vesna from thugs, the protection of Vesna from barghests, the gratitude and the watermill scene as a whole). A camera sweep inside the watermill was lacking in my opinion, a mere period of up to 10 seconds at most, showing Vesna and Geralt having sex within limits and whoosh, the camera gets out of the window across the room. That's it. But that would be cinematographic. And afterwards, if you go to the inn and talk to Vesna, she just asks you: "What will it be??" as in "What do you want to drink??". For God's sake, woman, didn't your encounter with him mean ANYTHING at all??Now, the important thing is, maybe except the hookers, courtesans, all the encounters between Geralt and different women (in my opinion) have to be in the same way with the proposed format. (A story within a story, a special quest maybe (the mean players would choose not to play the game in a "rude" way), 10 second intimacy scenes within a 30 second special movie (Vesna scene), and flexible interaction (before intimacy, after intmacy) ).That would be, in my opinion, a fair and equal construction.I am glad I posted this topic 8)Please go on posting and game widow, thank you very much for your support to this topic, in this sensible matter.All of you, "make love while making war" and take care Based on the original post I don't think that English is the poster's native language maybe and so his phrasing seems awkward at times. I don't think that he is looking to "whack off" to this game. Some of what he says makes sense...I did think that the sexual side of the game was weaker than it could have been, but it didn't bother me because the game is not about sex. He is a sexual being. Everything is a sexual being, but it doesn't mean that sex is everything.Personally I thought the cards were a little...weird and unrealistic. I mean, how many girls do know who carry about trading cards of themselves to give out after sex, but I thought it was a cool idea anyway. They really could have gone further with the sexual side of the game, but I'm not upset that they didn't.There is sex in the story, but the story is not about sex. Just like there is sex in your life, but your life probably is not about sex...
My, what a fine idea! I'll have to go find myself an artist....bucketbot said:
I am sorry for my English, you are right it is not my native language. And because I found my own phrasing awkward quite a few times, I had to modify my original post over and over.And yes, the game is not entirely about sex but it is entirely about a "witcher". An RPG/Adventure using sex like this, is (I think) a first. I just thought it should make better use of it. With a better visual presentation of the sex inside, I believe, the fun, excitement and realicism of the game may have increased remarkably, as a whole. I underline it once again, if this game was about The Lord Of The Rings, then I wouldn't think of a sex scene to be inside it, what's more, I could find it even disturbing. Because it wouldn't "fit" in the game. Even for Arwen and Aragorn.There is also violence and gore in the story, but is the story about violence and gore? Just like there is violence and gore in our lives, we can at least watch it from the TV everyday, but our life is certainly not about violence and gore. But the violence and gore in the game is shown in a purely graphic, even extreme way sometimes (think about Geralt killing a bunch of Salamandra).If I quote from the European booklet of The Witcher, page 10, a part of the paragraph under the title Geralt Of Rivia, reads like this:"(...) Dandelion devotes much attention to Geralt's struggles against monsters, to his famed romantic entanglements and to his love for a certain sorceress". The witcher has to deal with violence and gore, to earn a living. And he uses sexual pleasure and meditation to wash away the mental and physical damage of his job, on him. In this way, I think, for a witcher, both the sex and violence has equal importance. And therefore, this game is called "The Witcher". Not "Tales of Temeria". Therefore, I believe, it has to focus on The Witcher. And finally, here is a part of the review of The Witcher by Gamespot, exactly quoted: "Interactions between the sexes are also risqué in a corny way that would rev up only Beavis and Butthead. It's ridiculous enough that the side quests in every act let Geralt get horizontal with virtually every woman he meets, but it's just pathetic that each conquest is rewarded with a playing card that depicts the lovely lass in a come-hither pose. There isn't even any real payoff with these pics, either, given that the nudity that appeared in the European version of the game has been censored due to prudish Stateside sensibilities. (Thank you, Hot Coffee controversy.) At any rate, the sex is ludicrous and out of place, and is apparently there only to give game geeks hope that a fellow guy with lanky, unwashed hair and corpse-pale skin can score with hot babes." Exactly what I think. Sex is almost everywhere and it's too much. It can be limited to a few but "rewarding" movie-like encounters. If it happens to be this way, then I'm sure the phrasing "ludicrous and out-of-place" would not be there at all...bucketbot said:
I do agree that the dialogue after the encounters is really weak and unrealistic. And the story line doesn't really change as a result of the encounters. It would be interesting to see slightly different quests or a change in the story line based on whether Geralt does or does not sleep with the various main women. As it is, the sex is pretty much of the "Wham, bam, thank you ma'am" variety. Yes, you can carry on 'romance" with Triss or Shani, but even so the gameplay doesn't change much. As has been pointed out above, once the encounter is over, the dialogue reverts to the pre-sex options.
Kharax, I found this thread only this morning - I'm sorry not to have contributed to it earlier, because I strongly agree with most of what you have to say and strongly disagree with some of it.So, from the top
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Yes, of course it is important that in games we should explore sexuality in full and realistic ways. The point about role-playing games is that they let us play roles - they let us explore ways of living which for different reasons we cannot explore in real life. If there is a moral purpose to these games at all - and I strongly believe both that there can be and that The Witcher exemplifies this - it's because they expose us to moral choices and to the consequences of those choices in a 'safe' environment in which we do not cause hurt to other actual living people.There are those who argue that games with sexual content, and in which players can play out sexual roles, are somehow 'immoral' and that underage people should be protected from them. I believe strongly the opposite - that these games are highly moral, and that adolescents on the verge of sexuality should be encouraged to play them. Many of the train-wrecks we see of people's lives happen because in most western cultures people enter into their sexual maturity with frighteningly little understanding of or empathy for the emotional consequences of their actions on others. If through games we can expose adolescents to complex moral and sexual choices in a virtual environment, they may later bring more empathy and understanding to their sexual and emotional interactions with real people.All video games teach us new attitudes, by exposing us to choices and rewarding us for particular choices. Most video games reward only violence and greed. That is not 'moral'. The Witcher, too, does (too often in my opinion) allow the player to solve problems through violence. But, as in the Striga fight, it offers alternative solutions. In the course of the game, the player is sometimes (not often enough, in my opinion) rewarded for generous choices, alruistic ones; sometimes rewarded for deliberately stepping aside from the path of violence.kharax said: -
Unfortunately we are up against timid and populist politicians, and a media which finds it profitable to whip up storms of unthoughtful controversy over issues most people have not thought about. 'Games' are for 'children', and in our culture, as you rightly point out, we have this weird convention that it's somehow all right to show children images of violent death, but not images of tender love. Games are expensive to make, and it's no good making a game that's immediately going to be banned. And so each game - each game with a strong moral purpose, as The Witcher has - has to push back the barriers a little bit, to wash a little higher up the beach like an incoming tide. No commercial organisation can afford to challenge the demagogues head on.I find the Triss and Shani sex cut-scenes remarkably erotic and strongly commend the people who made them for achieving a great effect in a way which shouldn't overly provoke the censors. But like you I believe that stronger, more open representation of sexuality would enhance the game.More significantly I'd like to see much richer and more subtle dialogue trees leading up to actual sex - more exploration of the real feelings, thoughts, fears of the potential partner. -
Again, I strongly agree with you here. Interactive fiction - the role-playing game - is one of the most immersive forms of story-telling that we have available to us today. It must be among the most immersive fictional forms possible. Unlike a book or a movie, the game allows the player to make choices, to explore the consequences of their choices. That's what makes this medium so powerful, what makes it potentially such a great medium for teaching about life. - (about gender of players)
If you look at the intelligent contributors to this forum, women outnumber men. Of course, only a tiny proportion of players of the game post to the forum. But it is certain that many women play the game, and that, for some of them, the erotic content is powerful and attractive. I think your 90% figure is wildly out. I wouldn't be surprised if the true figure was 50/50; I would be greatly surprised if fewer than 25% of players are female. Of course, I don't know; but neither do you. And you're completely wrong to think that - male oriented though it is - the sexuality in this game repels female gamers. It clearly does not. Just look at the proportion of men to women who have contributed to this thread.
Petra, I agree that sex is almost an extra in this game, almost incidental. But should it be? Some of the most important choices anyone makes in their lives are sexual ones; through sexuality we can have a profound effect on others, either for good or for ill. We can share great joy and cause great hurt. In Sapkowski's books, which is more important to Geralt, Yennefer or a kikkimore? If games are art, and art reflects life, isn't it important to have more of life represented than just brutality and killing?kharax said:
Here, again, Petra, I agree with you completely. If two people have sex - even if it is only a casual one night stand - it changes the degree of intimacy between them quite profoundly. For me the way that this simply does not happen in The Witcher breaks my immersion in the game more sharply than any of it's other flaws. The strong example for me here is Shani. Of all the women he may encounter, she is the only one who is rperesented as falling in love with him, as wanting to make a permanent committment. But the morning after she has first given herself to him, she dismisses him if he meets her in the street. That is so wrong!kharax said:
Well said. Could not have put it better myself.And finally:kharax said:
As you can see perfectly well, this is an important and serious topic of real interest to many people who play - and think about - games like this. If you are too small minded to take part in such a discussion, then, quite frankly, that's your problem not ours. You aren't obliged to take part but if you don't want to, butt out.kharax said:
Props to Simon - I agree 100%. (also agree with the peterstar diss. that boy has issues - and he shows up everywhere!) I have been lurking in the shadows on this thread for a while, never quite feeling obliged to add my 2 cents. 'till now. My take: If you like eroticism & sex - GIT 'ER DONE.... there should be that option. If you don't - don't. The key here is that we should all have the choice to swing to either end of the "prude scale"- It should not be dictated by the few who think they need to direct everybodies personal lives! (peta, the "green people", the porn police, anti-gunners, etc.) Don't even get me started on that crap....EDIT: Yes, I am a proud member of the NRA. Yes, I did my time in the armed forces (security police). Yes, I hunt & fish. Yes, I have looked at a playboy & drooled a bit. - any questions??
I almost always agree with whatever Simon Brooke has to say -- it's hard to disagree with someone who's so sensitive, intelligent, and thoughtful -- but I agree so strongly with what he said here (and thought it was so beautifully said) that I want to emphasize it.Thank you, Simon, for being a counterbalance to the petestars -- not just of the forum but of the world.SimonBrooke said:
Dear Simon Brooke, I applaud you, too, thank you for reflecting your thoughts with patience and detail.I think what you strongly disagree with me, is about what I said concerning the level of female and male gamers in RPGs. Well, the reason why I used those figures at all was I think a result of an "overreaction caused by a defense mechanism against the first reply to my OP, by petestar69, which was a true shock for me, accusing me by showing me as a person "whacking off" in front of an RPG game. I obtained the figures from the Daedalus Poject and I may have wrongly obtained them. I happened to come across an example of World of Warcraft in the project and there, the percentages were 85% to 15%. And afterwards, I decided to erase all those figures from my original post because I thought it was almost irrelevant to talk about such statistics. What's more, I believe we as male gamers have much to learn from the female gamers, here. They are more mature, immersed-in-gameplay and imaginative. I again believe that they can see the story as a whole, better than the male players by not focusing on the violence or the sex while seeing them as "consumable products". I never meant to create some discrimination while writing my original post but I still apologize to each and every female/male gamer or poster here who thinks that I've done such a thing.I strongly agree with what you have written about adolescents learning about life through games and yes, that our lives are shaped importantly with the power of sexual inspiration. Moral decisions in real life must not be (and in fact can not be powerfully) constructed via violence and dictation. I do not want to see the youth of the future, violent and asexual. The concept of sex, has to be given to the youth as a "hard-to-achieve yet mentally and physically rewarding experience". If it is shown as an "easy-to-obtain, easy-to-consume, routine and immoral event" what will the adolescents think about having a gf/bf, a partner? How will they be able to integrate the necessity of breeeding and the beauty of having a child with the means of achieving these?In the quarrel of a couple taking place in the year 2020, should the man think about chopping the girl's head with a lasersword to put an end to the conflict, or should he cool down the stiuation by being patient and logical and put an end to the situation by having sex with, or at least kissing, her, beautifully and pleasurably?It's maybe hard for some to realize that moral messages can be given to adolescents via computer games, but parallel to the innovations in technology which enables games to become more complex and lifelike each day, this is possible. And if players can be "immersed" in a computer game, then they may unconsciously adopt some useful facts of life, into their minds. I just wanted to express my thoughts here and thank you, just like Corylea did and Fiznerpin applauded, dear Simon.And game widow, thank you for your encouraging words on my English, I try my best And please continue to "lurk" inside the waters of this topic
And please continue to "lurk" inside the waters of this topic Kharax, you'll find, like the rest of us, that petestar is more often a troll than a contributing member of these forums. Best to ignore.As for the rest, I heartily agree with Simon and I believe you'll find that most here do. You will find that we female gamers are not as small in number as statistics say, though, likely because we usually lurk rather than post comments. There are, however, topics that we tend to reply to, if they are interesting enough. The key word would be 'interesting'; we are quite discriminate. Don't worry about feeling like you discriminated against us.And, I agree, your English is better than many native English speaking people's. ~ Roxy
~ RoxyI agree the female gamer figure is a lode of old Tosh, and if gamers got out often enough they would discover this for themselves.BAH to statistics, they are written by recluse weenies in need of female attention other then there own mothers....... 8)
Oh yes, I belong to another game forum that's mostly women, I think -- and older women, too. Anyway, regarding the original topic, I do think the game could be a bit more balanced in terms of the sensuality. We get to see an awful lot of female flesh but no male nudity or semi-nudity at all. It would only be fair. But I suspect that women are more tolerant about seeing naked women than men are about seeing naked men. ;D *ducks and runs for cover*
I also agree with most what Simon said. For me there's no question if I want erotic/adult content in games, the question is only how it's done. The Witcher could have done better. Most of the encounters Geralt runs into are halfhearted, a little silly and not very erotic. The cards are nicely done, but nevertheless the tarot card collection idea is quite silly. If I have erotic content in a game, I want to enjoy it.Enjoying it does not mean whacking of, dear petestar. Erotic has nothing to do with porn. Do you see anyone whacking off while, say, Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise make love in "Eyes Wide Shut"? Does the "nude scene" in 1984 make anyone want to touch himself? I can really live without a cutscene in the Witcher that shows male body part A penetrating female body part B in a mega closeup. For the same reason why I don't like porn. It's not erotic. Now, if you've played Mass Effect, there's that nice cutscene in it the american media talked so much about. I won't go into the details about the characters involved and flaws of them, but that's a nicely done cutscene, and it does neither show nipples nor any other explicit stuff, no strong language either. It's just like a hollywood movie scene, and it's very well done. Plus, it has a long story around it and is the climax of an ongoing relationship. You can lean back, enjoy it and let out a satisfied sigh when it's done, without ever getting hot and having to take a little bathroom break. That's what I missed in the Witcher. A few cutscenes were nice or humourous, but some were just... dull. I missed the erotic side in the game. Now finally as for female gamers... those numbers are way off. It might apply to games per se, but really not to RPGs as far as I can tell. Or at least I have to agree with Simon again - if you count intelligent contributers in RPG forums, it must be at least 25%, more wouldn't surprise me. Over at the NWN boards, there are many female gamers, also at the Mass Effect forums and pretty much every RPG I play. And quite a lot do enjoy adult content when it's done in an intelligent way, I see many positive comments of female gamers about, say, the Mass Effect relationships (even the lesbian one). Adult content is not something only for male gamers, it might still be aimed at male gamers, but if so, game companies should really rethink. Oh, two of the best and highly explicit adult mods for NWN were made by women, and since those come with a great storyline and are not just about bumping one pixelavatar into the other all the time, they simply put all the rest to shame.
Absolutely agree. While I applaud the courage of the developers for what they've done, I agree that it could have been done better. The first Triss, Shani and Adda cut-scene movies strike me as genuinely erotic, but the rest of Geralt's sexual encounters? No. And, for me, the 'sex cards' are a bit cheesy. Very often the model chosen for the sex card looks very little like the in-game character. And the sex card models are too similar to one another - I still think just one woman posed for all the cards.What's actually important, though, is not the card but the dialogue that leads up to the card. What is it that motivates this particular woman to share her body with the Witcher? The motivation doesn't always have to be love. It doesn't even always have to be lust. It can be all sorts of things - including fear and gratitude and pity and horror and even curiosity or boredom. Real women to really choose to have sex for all these reasons. But the reason needs so be exposed in the course of the dialogue, and too often in The Witcher it is not, or not sufficiently.Chrisso said:
Strongly agree. RPGs clearly work well for people of both genders. I strongly believe that there's a large untapped market for RPGs which explore human relationships more fully and with mre depth, subtlty and sensitivity, and it's my belief that those games will appeal at least as much to women as to men. And therefore, the sexual content in those games must be oriented at least as much to women as to men. And finally...
I suspect that one of the ones Chrisso's talking about is A Dance with Rogues and I strongly agree. If you want to see how female sexuality can be explored in an RPG, this is one you must play. What's the other, Chrisso?