The perils of having an 'open world'.

[Bellator Pius Gratus]

@ Nucta and Agent Blue.

In TES games there's lots of lore present, and I and many others do care about it. Hell, I've even read some short stories from 'The Elder Scrolls Imperial Library'(all in-game books from all TES games) to children - who all loved it I might add. They loved 'Breathing Water' at least! They are really great stories, with a narratological twist at the end!

So, both games have lore, lots and lots of it and I am all for it. I especially love how CDPR use lore from Sapkowski's books but manage to make it their own, implement it well in the games. Seen the intro in Witcher 1? That is pretty much what happens from one chapter in 'The Last Wish'. I've only read two books but they are both must-read-books and I eagerly await to be able to buy all of them!

@ Nucta

I think what you are talking about Nucta, is progression, not 'time' in the sense of the world moving on. Day and night cycle still continue to cycle right? And both Skyrim and The Elder Scrolls rely on the main character's presence in the game to progress, doing quests and whatever.

Stand around forever watching trebuchets pummel La Valette walls, and the city won't fall just because Geralt stays with Triss in her tent(yeah baby! ). Neither will Vergen fall when standing around with Zoltan and the others watching them fight Henselt's troops.

I invested about 200 hours with Skyrim completely dragon free...only because I completely avoided going into 'the first' temple you are 'supposed to' enter. I did it by choice I might add, because I know how Bethesda games work regarding progression. When I felt ready, having traveled the whole map, exploring at my own whim and pace I went in and 'triggered' the main quest. With Witcher 3, this is the reason I created this topic: how 'free' are we to be, considering the previous games are 'limited' to freedom and/or narratology.

 

[ravensilver]

I invested about 200 hours with Skyrim completely dragon free...only because I completely avoided going into 'the first' temple you are 'supposed to' enter. I did it by choice I might add, because I know how Bethesda games work regarding progression. When I felt ready, having traveled the whole map, exploring at my own whim and pace I went in and 'triggered' the main quest. With Witcher 3, this is the reason I created this topic: how 'free' are we to be, considering the previous games are 'limited' to freedom and/or narratology.

Damn! I *knew* I shouldn't have climbed that damn mountain... >.<

But yes, if TW3 ends up being that open, then I'd really look forward to playing it (even more than I already do).

 

[Nucta.397]

@ Nucta and Agent Blue.

In TES games there's lots of lore present, and I and many others do care about it. Hell, I've even read some short stories from 'The Elder Scrolls Imperial Library'(all in-game books from all TES games) to children - who all loved it I might add. They loved 'Breathing Water' at least! />/> They are really great stories, with a narratological twist at the end! />/>

So, both games have lore, lots and lots of it and I am all for it. I especially love how CDPR use lore from Sapkowski's books but manage to make it their own, implement it well in the games. Seen the intro in Witcher 1? That is pretty much what happens from one chapter in 'The Last Wish'. I've only read two books but they are both must-read-books and I eagerly await to be able to buy all of them!

@ Nucta

I think what you are talking about Nucta, is progression, not 'time' in the sense of the world moving on. Day and night cycle still continue to cycle right? />/> And both Skyrim and The Elder Scrolls rely on the main character's presence in the game to progress, doing quests and whatever.

Stand around forever watching trebuchets pummel La Valette walls, and the city won't fall just because Geralt stays with Triss in her tent(yeah baby! />/> ). Neither will Vergen fall when standing around with Zoltan and the others watching them fight Henselt's troops.

I invested about 200 hours with Skyrim completely dragon free...only because I completely avoided going into 'the first' temple you are 'supposed to' enter. I did it by choice I might add, because I know how Bethesda games work regarding progression. When I felt ready, having traveled the whole map, exploring at my own whim and pace I went in and 'triggered' the main quest. With Witcher 3, this is the reason I created this topic: how 'free' are we to be, considering the previous games are 'limited' to freedom and/or narratology.

1. Quality of lore in TES games is great, in-game books are great (I've read them all), but quality of quests is poor. Did you try "Kolb and the Dragon" on your children?

2. Yes, I've read all Sapkowski's books several times (in my language they were published long ago). I can't help but see the differences that I'm not happy about between books and games.

3. Despite day&night circle I don't feel time in Skyrim. As for the Witcher 2 for me it was logical that after spending some time in the camp Geralt would be summoned by some officer.

I see 2 variants: 1) we have Skyrim-like freedom, world waits for us, nilfs don't attack, Yennifer patiently waits to be rescued, Eredin stays in Aen Elle world... 2) major quests are time dependent, important areas are locked. What other options are available? If developers give a player total freedom we get Skyrim.

What do you think will happen if your Geralt will play dice and drink beer instead of chasing Wild Hunt?
Will it be possible to go straight to Novigrad?

Damn! I *knew* I shouldn't have climbed that damn mountain... >.<

But yes, if TW3 ends up being that open, then I'd really look forward to playing it (even more than I already do).

Don't you think that with such openness we will have another Skyrim-like game? In other words, will the world wait for Geralt to come and save it?

 

[vivaxardas2015]

I see 2 variants: 1) we have Skyrim-like freedom, world waits for us, nilfs don't attack, Yennifer patiently waits to be rescued, Eredin stays in Aen Elle world... 2) major quests are time dependent, important areas are locked. What other options are available? If developers give a player total freedom we get Skyrim.

I hope we'll have a combination of both. Let's say we will be free to explore, to access main quest areas at will, and to leave them but only until we trigger a main quest part. After that we'll have to stay in the area (the writers have to find some way to do it inside a story) until the local main quest sequence is completed. So while we are on a main quest in the area, this area becomes locked, and we simply can't ditch it all and go hunting. But before we trigger them, we can come and go as we please.

 

[EmperorZorn]

I think the developers should put a heavy emphasis on characters.

In a vast open world characters or companions are the most powerful source of immersion that isnt stationary
a developer can use to convey story, emotions and a sense of belonging somewhere to the player without a fixed location.

Rather than a location the player only runs into once during his playthrough, characters can follow the player
throughout his main quest, allowing the player to be in control, at his own pace and still to get all the benefits of immersion out of it.

Sometimes drinking with your friends or catching up on what happened at an INN at the end of the day is
a nice change of pace from the usual kill quests.

This is also something Skyrim lacked, imo:
Decent storytelling and well written characters.

Oh... and dwarves. With beards. Majestic beards.

 

[Agent_Blue]

1. It was sarcasm.
2. Why did you misspell my name?

1. Hard to tell. The point has been made in the past.
2. Shit happens.

 

[Nucta.397]

I hope we'll have a combination of both. Let's say we will be free to explore, to access main quest areas at will, and to leave them but only until we trigger a main quest part. After that we'll have to stay in the area (the writers have to find some way to do it inside a story) until the local main quest sequence is completed. So while we are on a main quest in the area, this area becomes locked, and we simply can't ditch it all and go hunting. But before we trigger them, we can come and go as we please.

Why combination? We had it in previous games. Look, in Witcher 1 we could spend any amouts of time in the tavern getting drunk and playing mini-games until we were sent by the priest to Salamandra's hiding place, after that all unfinished quests became failed. Same with other chapters and in Witcher 2 it was the same logic: roam free until you reach the trigger. Every player who replayed the games kept in mind what triggered that "point of no return" and planned ahead. But up to that time we had current location to explore. The difference with the Witcher 3 will be all about the scale of this location and possibility to return to locations where previous parts of the main quest(s) took place (if plot allows it).

But in previous games locations were smaller. There was actually nothing to do when we finished drinking/talking and we simply had to start doing quests. In Witcher 3 the world is bigger. The question is: if we explore it at our pace, will we finally trigger main quest? How? In Skyrim you never trigger it just exploring the world. You have to go to the special place and talk to special people. Personally, after playing for about 100h I started wondering where were the dragons, in my game I didn't see any. Right from the start I went south and got lost in the woods. I fear that in Witcher 3 I'll get lost once again. But I don't want to loose this freedom, I want some really clever main quest triggers.

I think the developers should put a heavy emphasis on characters.

Sometimes drinking with your friends or catching up on what happened at an INN at the end of the day is
a nice change of pace from the usual kill quests.

This is also something Skyrim lacked, imo:
Decent storytelling and well written characters.

Oh... and dwarves. With beards. Majestic beards.

Did you want to talk to Dandellion or Zoltan about your recent quests but there was no line in dialogue and you felt cheated? I was. Devs should add option for Geralt to tell his friends about things - sitting in tavern all days long is boring and guys must be eager to listen to some thrilling witcher-news />/>)

... What about female dwarves?

1. Hard to tell. The point has been made in the past.
2. Shit happens. />/>/>

I hope you don't know what you called me.

 

[Bellator Pius Gratus]

I hope you don't know what you called me.

I'm sure he didn't, but I can't answer for sure. Well I don't know what it means, but I don't know what 'Nucta' means neither. Do tell! I love learning languages! But IF you think you were called something bad and it was deliberate it's time for some moderator action! No name calling!

Regarding time and progression I am simply emphasising the time in OUR world. REAL time. Stand around for an hour watching trebuchets, the castle won't fall in Witcher 2. Come to think of it, day and night cycle has been temporarily disabled as well for that part of the game. Stand around in Skyrim in whatever hamlet you find yourself in and no dragons will come flying if you haven't initiated/triggered the main quest to a certain point. It goes into narration.

The difference is that in Skyrim we do get date, month, and year, and it changes constantly regardless of where you go or when you decide to do things. Both witcher games span about a couple of months in spring, summer and autumn. No more. I had no idea that the first witcher game's timeline spanned several months until I saw the timeline recap on this site.

As for children, I have none, but a bunch of nephews and nieces though. Besides them I have also gotten the opportunity to read fantasy stories to pupils learning english. But no, I've never chosen 'Kolb and the Dragon' or whatever it's called. But so what? Are you demanding every bit of in-game lore to be precious gems of narration? Last time I checked there are lots of bad storytelling in real life as well. I take it for what it is. It's called immersion or creating atmosphere. You want bad? You think 'The Lusty Argonian Maid' is a swing at 'good' literature or bad? How about 'ABC for Barbarians' then? It's like saying that the Barbarian class will automatically have a low intelligence level in stats. Prejudice much? Fortunately that isn't the point or the truth, and it's just there to get some laughs if you understand it for the joke it is. I know I laughed, but my sense of humour is accordingly. Kolb I read and discarded. No more.

Playing Deus Ex led to many discoveries in literature, not least the good Chesterton, and conspirary theories abound. Mind you this was in 2000, and I nor my friends had seen or even heard of Illuminati in any known game or film. Tomb Raider came later.

I will lastly say "N'gasta kvata kvakis", and do look it up(keycode and everything!) before you do like I intially did and completely ruled it out as hogwash regarding in-game lore. Can someone say pop culture injections in games? Who or whom decides what is good or not? I do know what I choose to buy and read, watch or play. Lore is bonus!

 

[Nucta.397]

Regarding time and progression I am simply emphasising the time in OUR world. REAL time. Stand around for an hour watching trebuchets, the castle won't fall in Witcher 2. Come to think of it, day and night cycle has been temporarily disabled as well for that part of the game. Stand around in Skyrim in whatever hamlet you find yourself in and no dragons will come flying if you haven't initiated/triggered the main quest to a certain point. It goes into narration.

The difference is that in Skyrim we do get date, month, and year, and it changes constantly regardless of where you go or when you decide to do things. Both witcher games span about a couple of months in spring, summer and autumn. No more. I had no idea that the first witcher game's timeline spanned several months until I saw the timeline recap on this site.

Well, English is not my first language, I use it mainly in my work and it's technical there. Maybe that's why I have problems with such philosophical questions. But I repeat. I start playing Witcher 3. I get lost in the woods (exploring, herb gathering, monster hunting). What will trigger main quest? In Skyrim it can be not triggered at all, but it doesn't matter, because it's a game to live in. In Witcher 3, months go by, my Geralt is still monster hunting, emperor of Nilfgaard is waiting for Geralt to start the main quest...

In previous witcher games the world was smaller, we didn't have much to do, that's why it was logical that games spanned for a rather small period of time. In Witcher 3 we will have a much bigger world and won't have chapters to separate world states after progressing in main quests. Everything must be accomplished in the same big witcherworld. I'm thinking about it and I've no idea how the developers will be able to manage give us open world and not loose high story telling standard. How these "herbs gathering" and "main quest triggering, world changing" will work?

As far as we've been told, game starts with Geralt heading for yarl's castle. Fine, I've seen it before. In Skyrim you were sent to see yarl, too. Hope, Geralt will not be imprisoned once again. I'm planning to let my Geralt loose in the wilds - just to see what would happen.

As for children, I have none, but a bunch of nephews and nieces though. Besides them I have also gotten the opportunity to read fantasy stories to pupils learning english. But no, I've never chosen 'Kolb and the Dragon' or whatever it's called. But so what? Are you demanding every bit of in-game lore to be precious gems of narration? Last time I checked there are lots of bad storytelling in real life as well. I take it for what it is. It's called immersion or creating atmosphere. You want bad? You think 'The Lusty Argonian Maid' is a swing at 'good' literature or bad? How about 'ABC for Barbarians' then? It's like saying that the Barbarian class will automatically have a low intelligence level in stats. Prejudice much? />/> Fortunately that isn't the point or the truth, and it's just there to get some laughs if you understand it for the joke it is. I know I laughed, but my sense of humour is accordingly. Kolb I read and discarded. No more.

Playing Deus Ex led to many discoveries in literature, not least the good Chesterton, and conspirary theories abound. Mind you this was in 2000, and I nor my friends had seen or even heard of Illuminati in any known game or film. Tomb Raider came later. />/>

I will lastly say "N'gasta kvata kvakis", and do look it up(keycode and everything!) before you do like I intially did and completely ruled it out as hogwash regarding in-game lore. Can someone say pop culture injections in games? Who or whom decides what is good or not? I do know what I choose to buy and read, watch or play. Lore is bonus! />/>

Basically, I don't understand this part at all. I only said that the quality of in'game books in Skyrim is better than the quality of quests. This book, Kolb & dragon, is a mini-game, it's not to read, but to play, I had something like it in my childhood.

 

[Bellator Pius Gratus]

Well, English is not my first language, I use it mainly in my work and it's technical there. Maybe that's why I have problems with such philosophical questions. But I repeat. I start playing Witcher 3. I get lost in the woods (exploring, herb gathering, monster hunting). What will trigger main quest? In Skyrim it can be not triggered at all, but it doesn't matter, because it's a game to live in. In Witcher 3, months go by, my Geralt is still monster hunting, emperor of Nilfgaard is waiting for Geralt to start the main quest...

In previous witcher games the world was smaller, we didn't have much to do, that's why it was logical that games spanned for a rather small period of time. In Witcher 3 we will have a much bigger world and won't have chapters to separate world states after progressing in main quests. Everything must be accomplished in the same big witcherworld. I'm thinking about it and I've no idea how the developers will be able to manage give us open world and not loose high story telling standard. How these "herbs gathering" and "main quest triggering, world changing" will work?

As far as we've been told, game starts with Geralt heading for yarl's castle. Fine, I've seen it before. In Skyrim you were sent to see yarl, too. Hope, Geralt will not be imprisoned once again. I'm planning to let my Geralt loose in the wilds - just to see what would happen.



Basically, I don't understand this part at all. I only said that the quality of in'game books in Skyrim is better than the quality of quests. This book, Kolb & dragon, is a mini-game, it's not to read, but to play, I had something like it in my childhood.

Ah, right, I remember now! It's the book with all the different choices! I would love to read that to my nephews actually. =) Whatever the case regarding in-game lore is moot. I obviously misunderstood your post. Well at least now you know how I feel about in-game lore(I love it!).