"The Stack" in Gwent [Timing of Multiple Effects]

[DanielSens]

I agree with Treamayne.

But as well I see that a rule for all cards makes balancing harder (example see the upcoming nerf of Savage Bear).
At least it would be great if there are hidden timing-values for every card. A list with these values could be announced at the forum for comeptitive players.

 

[scorba]

How does timing work?

Is there some rule about how Timing works when several effects would trigger at the same time? (like, at the start of turn, etc.)

If I'm not mistaken, in HS it goes like, first played triggers first. I'm not sure it's so in Gwent.

I was trying to figure out this case in particular:

http://www.gwentdb.com/cards/4-impenetrable-fog
Every turn, at the start of your turn, Damage the HighestUnit on the row by 2.

There is Fog on a Row, with this Highest Unit standing in it:

http://www.gwentdb.com/cards/50065-redanian-knight
Every turn, at the start of your turn, if this Unit has no Armor, Boost it by 2 and add 2 Armor to it.

so will it check first if it already has Armor, or will it get 2 Damage first?

what I noticed is, regardless of order played, the Fog always triggers first.
Is there some general rule behind it?

 

[Alts-Gamer]

Is there some general rule behind it?

With the amount of effects in this game it is hard to have "general rule". If you are interested in finding out priorities for specific cards you can use third tab of this document:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...F78N0/pubhtml#
It indicates only priorities and you should know when card triggers on your own: whether it is turn start or turn end.

Fog has priority 800 while Redanian Knight has 300. Villen has 190. Therefore, Villen >> Knight >> Fog is the correct order of triggers.

 

[scorba]

With the amount of effects in this game it is hard to have "general rule". If you are interested in finding out priorities for specific cards you can use third tab of this document:

wow, that's.... quite something! an impressive glimpse into the development process.
thanks!

the "first played, first takes effect" rule could be easy enough rather than to memorize this sheet, but you could argue that this is at least consistent.

 

[4RM3D]

scorba thread merged

Since the dawn of time, people have been wondering about this. Indeed, Gwent should have a more consistent rule set regarding these timers.

 

[Skryba86]

Yeah, I really dislike that cards have trigger priorities defined individually.

There should be a base rule (example: first played will trigger first), to which there could be exceptions like the case of the bear, which specifically mentions it'll trigger after all others, or morenn, which mentions that it triggers before anything else. But a base rule should apply to every card which doesn't mention an exception, and at the moment it just seems to be defined by the devs, for each card individually, leaving the player unable to actually know how interactions will play out until they've tried them, and memorized them.

 

[Kinglionsfox]

Triggers and Order of Action

There are some inconsistencies the game has with the order of triggers on the battlefield. These are some I have noticed:

-Roach, triggers and acts before your gold card play is resolved. This ruins the brave effect on Geralt. And I don't like how Vilgefortz can target Roach.
-Morenn triggers before you can lock with a silver unit.
-Kaedweni Siege Support triggers before Kaedweni Sergeant, ruining Sergeant's buffing ability.
-The Imperial Golems should trigger after using the leader.
-Saskia should trigger after using the leader as well.
-Elven Wardancer should go into limbo when a player is mulligan cards, then come out after the ability resolves.
-I'm not 100% sure how Hawker Smuggler works, but it should not trigger until the played card has been resolved it's ability. (Kinda hard to have something hit it for exactly 4 damage from a unit)
-Morkvarg weakens when it is resurrected, and Olgied weakens upon going into the graveyard. Consuming graveyard has the biggest impact on this order.
-Clan An Craite Raiders should not be summoned until after King Bran's ability resolves. Same with Cerys as it won't tick from the Raider resurections if they are discarded first.
-Another example, but fixed, was the Savage bears triggering before the enemy unit's ability resolves.
-Basically any card that has "When" or "Whenever" should happen after the effect that triggered it.


All healing/buffing triggers should happen before all damaging triggers (not to be confused with damage from playing cards), because damaging units is more valuable than buffing them.

There are other units that have triggers but order of triggers doesn't really conflict with gameplay at the moment, as far as I know. These are the Triggers that order doesn't really matter, or impossible to reverse atm:
Foglet (Fog)
Dol Blathanna Protector (Spells)
Blue Stripes Commando (Muster, Trio)
Harpy Egg (Consume, Deathwish)
Nekker (Consume, Deathwish)
Clan Tuirseach Axeman (Damage)
Reaver Hunter (Trio)
Vrihedd Vangaurd (Mulligan)
Clan An Craite Raider (Discard)
Daerlan Foot Soldiers (Reveal)
Spotter (Reveal)
Ice Giant (Frost)
Clan Brokvar Hunter (Damage)
Clan Dimun Pirate Captain (Discard)
Redanian Elite (Armor)
Arachas Behemoth (Consume)
Dol Blathanna Marksman (Movement)
Raging Berserker (Retaliation)
Clan Tuirseach Skirmishers (Graveyard)
War Long Ship (Discard)
Fire Scorpion (Reveal)
Imperial Brigade (Spy)
Mangonel (Reveal)
Commando Neophyte (Mulligan)
Savage Bear (Damage, mentioned above)
Prize-Winning Cow (Retaliation)
Iris (Deathwish) [Her interaction with carryover seems wrong]
Sabrina Glevissig (Deathwish)
Botchling (Deathwish)
Lubberkin (Deathwish)
Toruviel (Ambush)
Aelirenn (Muster)
Fake Ciri (Passing)
Ves (Muster, Trio)
Yarpen Zigrin (Boost)
Trollololo (Trio)
Ciri (Losing the Round)
Old Speartip: Asleep (Unit count) [same with awake version]
Bloody Baron (Enemy units destroyed)
Iorveth (Movement)
Ciri: Dash (Graveyard)
Lord of Undvik (Destroy)

I made the list mostly to go through all the cards and check again to see if anything pops up with weird interactions.

Exceptions:
Wild Hunt Rider has a Trio effect, but I don't consider it a trigger, because once you have 3 on a row, it always happens at the end of the turn.
Ancient Fogglet's ability is like Wild Hunter Rider, it just happens, every turn, once it starts. Nothing immediate happens.
Vrihedd Sappers has the Ambush effect, but it just happens without any trigger.
Vabjorn, It's almost like a trigger, but this one happens at the end of the turn. It won't Trigger on opponent's turn with units hit by weather.

Edited: Added the Clan an Craite Raiders interaction with King Bran and Cerys not working because of order conflicts.

 

[4RM3D]

Kinglionsfox thread merged

Also, thanks for the list.

There are other units that have triggers but order of triggers doesn't really conflict with gameplay at the moment, as far as I know. [...] Harpy Egg (Consume, Deathwish)

The order of the consume effect does matter. For example when weather hits first before the Vran Warrior can consume it.

 

[ResoundingBuahaha]

-Kaedweni Siege Support triggers before Kaedweni Sergeant, ruining Sergeant's buffing ability.

This bit is relevant to how many sergeants been already played before Siege support was played, the order of trigger after the patch now makes BSC come out before Siege support and Sergeant trigger, which makes the situation a bit complex. I shall illustrate as follows.

(Umm guys I think I got some problem uploading the image,,,can anyone help me?)


The Control group, I use Henselt+Sergeant+BSC+VES to illustrate. Everything in hand is boosted to 6 as usual.
http://i.imgur.com/O7zxRzk.jpg

If Siege support is played before any sergeant then sure the ability can't buff anything except the BSC it summoned, everything is hand stays the same base power except 4 power Adept, Reaver hunter and medic might be buffed to 5 as sergeant triggers after siege support.

http://i.imgur.com/Jp3ZEVC.jpg

If 1 sergeant is already played and then siege support is played, the following sergeants will only capable to boost 5 power units to 6 and remaining units would stay at 4 (1 sergeant buff). It creates difference in power among units though.
http://i.imgur.com/KhsFSZj.jpg

If 2 sergeants are already played and then siege support is played, the siege support would trigger the last BSC and hence trigger Ves, and the last sergeant would be able to buff 6 power units to 7 as shown, interesting way to mimic Foltest. And the rest of deck will be buffed to 5 instead of normal 6.

http://i.imgur.com/ZktlSFw.jpg

 

[Kinglionsfox]

This bit is relevant to how many sergeants been already played before Siege support was played, the order of trigger after the patch now makes BSC come out before Siege support and Sergeant trigger, which makes the situation a bit complex. I shall illustrate as follows.

(Umm guys I think I got some problem uploading the image,,,can anyone help me?)


The Control group, I use Henselt+Sergeant+BSC+VES to illustrate. Everything in hand is boosted to 6 as usual.
http://i.imgur.com/O7zxRzk.jpg

If Siege support is played before any sergeant then sure the ability can't buff anything except the BSC it summoned, everything is hand stays the same base power except 4 power Adept, Reaver hunter and medic might be buffed to 5 as sergeant triggers after siege support.

http://i.imgur.com/Jp3ZEVC.jpg

If 1 sergeant is already played and then siege support is played, the following sergeants will only capable to boost 5 power units to 6 and remaining units would stay at 4 (1 sergeant buff). It creates difference in power among units though.
http://i.imgur.com/KhsFSZj.jpg

If 2 sergeants are already played and then siege support is played, the siege support would trigger the last BSC and hence trigger Ves, and the last sergeant would be able to buff 6 power units to 7 as shown, interesting way to mimic Foltest. And the rest of deck will be buffed to 5 instead of normal 6.

http://i.imgur.com/ZktlSFw.jpg

I understand the interaction. The whole interaction negates the Sergeants buffing of units in the hand and deck. If it doesn't come out onto the battlefield from a trigger, it won't be buffed by the Sergeants. Sometimes I Quen (from Kiera Metz) Reaver Scouts, so I can get them up to 6-7 strength, from Sergeant buffs. It will stop Temerian Infantryman from getting the buffs, and any other similarly strength bronze card in the deck.

If the trigger from the Support happened after, it won't block the Sergeant's buffs. It will also create a stagger of 1 or 2 (2 units if BSC is in the deck) units with 1 power higher on the row.

 

[Skryba86]

Kinglionsfox while I agree with a lot of your complaints, and as I mentioned in the post above I really believe gwent needs an equivalent of the MTG stack mechanic, which is to say that it needs a general rule that all cards will follow when it comes to ability triggers (to which there can always be exceptions, mentioned in the cards themselves), there are some cards you mention that I don't really think of as inconsistencies.


Roach, morenn, morkvarg and olgierd all act accordingly to their descriptions. Roach is summoned before abilities trigger, morenn damages the enemy before its deploy ability triggers, morkvarg is weakened after resurrection and olgierd is weakened upon destruction. These are all what I'd consider to be exceptions to a base rule that should exist (but doesn't), as their description mentions exactly when they will trigger their abilities.

As for the golems and Saskia, they work accordingly to the orders ability, which specifically mentions that it's triggered before the leader's deploy ability resolves.

 

[Kinglionsfox]

Yes, Gwent needs to standardize the mechanics, like in MTG. Unlike MTG stacking, I feel Gwent should be First on, First off. I still feel Roach, Morenn, and all the other cards need to behave the same, not have a separate description for each card. I feel like a lot of the balance changes are already wanting to do this anyways, like the golems and savage bears (my complaints too). For Morenn, its Ambush ability won't be devastating (a reason why ambush was significantly reduced in the open beta) if you can lock it with a unit, a counter play. It's not like you can target it without a lock anyways.

It will be easier to learn the game if everything didn't have their own set of rules, and probably easier to develop/program for CDPR. A good game is easy to get into, but hard to master.

All my requests/complaints are for trigger abilities only. Not the Upkeep abilities at the start of the turn or the abilities that happen in the end phase, because that needs it's own set of rules and order. CDPR did state they wanted weather to act last in the Upkeep start phase of a turn. Idk what else they want for order of operations, and I haven't really thought about it much.

 

[ResoundingBuahaha]

I understand the interaction. The whole interaction negates the Sergeants buffing of units in the hand and deck. If it doesn't come out onto the battlefield from a trigger, it won't be buffed by the Sergeants. Sometimes I Quen (from Kiera Metz) Reaver Scouts, so I can get them up to 6-7 strength, from Sergeant buffs. It will stop Temerian Infantryman from getting the buffs, and any other similarly strength bronze card in the deck.

If the trigger from the Support happened after, it won't block the Sergeant's buffs. It will also create a stagger of 1 or 2 (2 units if BSC is in the deck) units with 1 power higher on the row.

I'll certainly be happy to see it works this way

 

[Otterherder]

Proc order

Which procs first, Iris's deathwish, or the BSC from Vernon Roche when he destroys Iris?

 

[4RM3D]

Otterherder

The order of procs for a lot of cards is unclear. There is a dedicated thread for this to which I've merged your thread. Anyhow, I had a similar situation where Iris triggered last. I would imagine Vernon Roche works the same way.

 

[Otterherder]

Thanks 4RM3D

 

[FinnishHockeyGod]

Card ticks

Hey!

I was wondering is there some rule or something like that when you have many cards at your side with same timer. Example if Villentretenmerth, Vran warrior and Grave Hag are about to make them abilitys at the same turn which will happen first? And example you have weather also in one row and Spectral Whale from Blueboy Lugos at one row. So in that case you have five different ticks/abilitys happening at the start of your turn. I just wanna check which order those abilitys would start to happen and is there a rule for that, thanks!

 

[4RM3D]

is there some rule or something like that when you have many cards at your side with same timer [...] which will happen first?

There are definitely some rules, but like with the laws of the universe, we only know some of them; most have been discovered by just observing their interactions. It would be an improvement if CDPR could release a manual of sorts with a consistent set of rules.

Anyhow, as far as I have been able to gather, when units have the amount of time left on the timer and when they trigger at the start of the round, the prio is as follows:
1) On your turn, your units activate first
2) The unit with the highest initial timer goes first
2) Then the opponent's weather
3) Then the opponent's units

PS. thread merged

 

[wojteks0]

There are definitely some rules, but like with the laws of the universe, we only know some of them; most have been discovered by just observing their interactions. It would be an improvement if CDPR could release a manual of sorts with a consistent set of rules.

Anyhow, as far as I have been able to gather, when units have the amount of time left on the timer and when they trigger at the start of the round, the prio is as follows:
1) On your turn, your units activate first
2) The unit with the highest initial timer goes first
2) Then the opponent's weather
3) Then the opponent's units

PS. thread merged

A set of consistent rules would be great as certain cards do act in a rather unexpected way. One gets used to those behaviours, but I am still surprised from time to time (finding out that 1. happens before 3. really helped). Still, rule 2) is a novelty for me...

 

[Lyserus]

Clearer Priority?

It is still unclear to me about which card triggers first when both their abilities are “at the start of your turn”. It would be nice if we have something like “if multiple cards' ability trigger in the same phrase, it start with the leftest siege-right sieges-leftest range （same for your opponent, but for you it's your right on his row）”

or is there already a rule like that I do not know?