Was there really a need to increase Ball's cost?

[Nerevarine228]

People still run Assire - for double Invo or Vincent

I am yet to see one used in 7.3 for either of those. Tried using her myself to recycle Portal, but with how clunky the whole choreography of having 4 cards you don't want to draw in your deck (and having to pull Assire by r2) was really disheartening. And she's such a slow play, too...
So, not really that great for Assimilation, questionable in Enslave, and pointless in Ball decks that basically have crazy amounts of removal anyway.
Are you sure you understand the faction you complain about all that well?

 

[uber_croupier]

Ball decks that basically have crazy amounts of removal anyway

Oh, so ST and SK do not have many removal tools? By your logic, we should nerf their scenarios as well

Are you sure you understand the faction you complain about all that well?

Certainly, you don't understand this topic. I complaining about a faction being weak in past seasons, that just received another nerf that hurts it even more.

I'm not seeking your opinion about Assire nor asking for any judgement calls.

 

[Nerevarine228]

Oh, so ST and SK do not have many removal tools? By your logic, we should nerf their scenarios as well

And they are getting heavy inevitable nerfs sooner rather than later, like they obviously should.
Moreover, what you present as "my logic" very much isn't that. SK/ST scenarios merely generate points rather than removing from your opponents, whereas Ball is a juicy cherry on a top of an already very removal-heavy cake.
One more important thing you miss is that SK/ST removal is mostly hardcapped, whereas poison really isn't. Yeah, you can't poison veiled units, but then again, you can't Rebuke out a shielded/sufficiently tall unit, so it's a tie...except poison still has much higher value ceiling.

Certainly, you don't understand this topic. I complaining about a faction being weak in past seasons, that just received another nerf that hurts it even more.

Okay, first of all, NG's weakness is severely overstated. My best guess is that it's a bad case of withdrawal syndrome after being insanely broken for a while (still have PTSD from forum discussions where people claimed 10 poisons are counterable).
I'm having a blast with Enslave 5 and Assimilation in prorank. Definitely feels like I'm putting more thinking into playing than my SK/NR opponents, but I win as much as I lose (and my winrate would be even better if I didn't dabble in retarded stuff like Tibor x Alchemists occasionally), so there you go. Competitive stuff. Harder to play, but that makes sense with those value ceilings and tricks not tied to the game of numbers. You get lucky with Cantarella/Vilge, you ruin your opponent completely. The opponent goes a bit too tall? Instaloss to mechanics, not even skill. Things like these just can't be easy and reliable, or they would instantly go into broken territory.

Secondly, and more importantly, even if it was as bad as you claim, it wouldn't be a reason to just leave a toxic card be.
NG needs a buff? okay, sure, plenty of bad cards. But that doesn't mean a broken card should be allowed to continue existing just because it's ostensibly carrying the faction.

I'm not seeking your opinion about Assire nor asking for any judgement calls.

Didn't realise I needed your permission for pointing out BS. But sure, I'll keep it in mind.

 

[Riven-Twain]

Moderator: Please, keep your discussion respectful.

 

[Philido]

And they are getting heavy inevitable nerfs sooner rather than later, like they obviously should.
Moreover, what you present as "my logic" very much isn't that. SK/ST scenarios merely generate points rather than removing from your opponents, whereas Ball is a juicy cherry on a top of an already very removal-heavy cake.
One more important thing you miss is that SK/ST removal is mostly hardcapped, whereas poison really isn't. Yeah, you can't poison veiled units, but then again, you can't Rebuke out a shielded/sufficiently tall unit, so it's a tie...except poison still has much higher value ceiling.


Okay, first of all, NG's weakness is severely overstated. My best guess is that it's a bad case of withdrawal syndrome after being insanely broken for a while (still have PTSD from forum discussions where people claimed 10 poisons are counterable).
I'm having a blast with Enslave 5 and Assimilation in prorank. Definitely feels like I'm putting more thinking into playing than my SK/NR opponents, but I win as much as I lose (and my winrate would be even better if I didn't dabble in retarded stuff like Tibor x Alchemists occasionally), so there you go. Competitive stuff. Harder to play, but that makes sense with those value ceilings and tricks not tied to the game of numbers. You get lucky with Cantarella/Vilge, you ruin your opponent completely. The opponent goes a bit too tall? Instaloss to mechanics, not even skill. Things like these just can't be easy and reliable, or they would instantly go into broken territory.

Secondly, and more importantly, even if it was as bad as you claim, it wouldn't be a reason to just leave a toxic card be.
NG needs a buff? okay, sure, plenty of bad cards. But that doesn't mean a broken card should be allowed to continue existing just because it's ostensibly carrying the faction.


Didn't realise I needed your permission for pointing out BS. But sure, I'll keep it in mind.

Oh yeah, I think we all remember them, the insanely broken Tier 2 51% win rate times of NG. Man, those were the days....

 

[Nerevarine228]

Oh yeah, I think we all remember it, the insanely broken Tier 2 51% win rate times of NG. Man, those were the days....

Those were the days when tall cards/damage engines went near-extinct because of a single broken mechanic, which made meta extremely stale.
You can't just use global winrates as a direct proof for anything without considering the context. It may be indicative of power, but it can also indicate a forced shift in meta.

Well, unless it goes above 55-57%, like with SK right now or below 45, like with Invigorate.

 

[Philido]

Those were the days when tall cards/damage engines went near-extinct because of a single broken mechanic, which made meta extremely stale.
You can't just use global winrates as a direct proof for anything without considering the context. It may be indicative of power, but it can also indicate a forced shift in meta.

Well, unless it goes above 55-57%, like with SK right now or below 45, like with Invigorate.

There's a great formula for the whole game: Control is favored against engines, while engine-heavy decks are favored against midrange. Midrange is favored against control. If you played a long round as let's say NR engines against SY Wild Card you were just as doomed as against NG. There're good and bad match-ups and bleeding is sometimes essential, be it against NG, NR, SY or any other faction with cards that generate value over time. Playing against midrange stuff like elves or Uprising swarm/ Draug in a long round makes many control decks look like a joke, and NG is no exception.

 

[jed9653]

I only play assimilate when I play NG so ball doesn't really affect me, but I'm okay seeing the increase in cost for it; though I would have been a lot more appreciative of seeing better and more buffs for the rest of the faction, even if it would have been without the provision increase to ball.

 

[Riven-Twain]

Moderator: A couple posts deleted. Please, remember to treat each other, and each other's opinions, with kindness and respect.

 

[judgecsk]

...dayuuum..!
People are still rilled up over the Ball prov nerf...?

NG needs more buffs overall, the faction needs some serious buffing to get up to 50% win rates, I think no one is disputing that.

Think about it, they nerf this card and the faction's win rate drops like crazy, imo it means that the faction was over reliant on this one card.
NG needs some flavorful buffing to it's cards, like more *bonded* cards and *devotion* buffs, not just a single card to use to "torture" your opponent that can be easily nerfed.

I hope next expansion brings more "cool" cards for NG and every faction, till then I'll keep playing Assimilation as I find it's copying aspect really trolly and fun !

Cheers !

 

[Payus]

This might be the stupidest solution but, what if CDPR introduced new Scenarios, NG could have a Spy/Soldiers/Assimilate scenario for example, SK could have a self wound one, and so on...

That would at least open up new strategies and maybe even fix whole faction's archetype.

 

[OneWhoCravesSouls]

This might be the stupidest solution but, what if CDPR introduced new Scenarios, NG could have a Spy/Soldiers/Assimilate scenario for example, SK could have a self wound one, and so on...

That would at least open up new strategies and maybe even fix whole faction's archetype.

But only if they do some kind of restriction that you're only able to run one of them like I suggested a few days back in another thread*, if not they should stay far away from adding more Scenarios, especially ball goes with bloody everything it would be less problematic if all scenarios would be like the ST one that only works in one Archetype.

*
https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?threads/less-artifact-removal-good-or-bad.11037668/post-12204440

 

[Nerevarine228]

This might be the stupidest solution but, what if CDPR introduced new Scenarios, NG could have a Spy/Soldiers/Assimilate scenario for example, SK could have a self wound one, and so on...

That would at least open up new strategies and maybe even fix whole faction's archetype.

Shut up and take my money!

I love self-wound to the hell and back - and not the easy pussy stuff like Lippy x Cerys + a virgin Chosen of Svalblod, but the real deal - Olaf, Artis, Restoration, Knut, Tuirschach Veterans, the Vildcaarl Berserk guy engine (don't remember his name) etc. It's actually kind of viable, but only "kind of", with all the tall removal going on. Sure love me some 23 points Jutta...but she never lives to see the end of the game, deplorably.

Spy/Assimilation scenario would be really nice, too. Because right now its spot is taken by the Portal, which means Usurper and Fergus aren't really practical, even though they could be wonderful addition.
Could play out like this:
1) Play a Mage Torturess
2) Informant
3) Seditious Artistocrat

For a grand total of ~16 (depending on how the Informant plays out) perfectly counterable points and some lovely Coup the Grace synergy.


That said, Scenarios are awfully hard to balance. Like I said in a removed post, they can be either underpowered or broken, with very little middle ground.
Gedi/Elves aren't bad, because they don't give you immediate control and have additional requirements for optimal performance - Crow Girls + Turtle/Armored ship or Vernossiel+Isengrim.

All the other scenarios, though, are highly problematic. I feel like the main issue here is their self-sufficiency - they don't require any preparation/followup, and form a perfect synergy just with the cards that trigger them - the Ball being the worst of the bunch, with the ability to play out Chapters 1/2 in the same turn thanks to Roderick/Joachim.
Not sure what could be done about that.

 

[Sensimilius]

Ball is a nuclear-powered card when integrated into other NG stuff, the devs actually did good by increasing it's cost.

 

[uber_croupier]

Well, I think I will replace Ball with Maraal to see if it works out better. Not like I was doing badly - my Ball deck got me to pro in 2 days, but this just seems way too costy and maybe I'd perform even better? Thanks for your input guys.

 

[radesign]

And what if you don't land second poison cause it was purified, consumed, blocked with defender or my Ball Heatwaved?

If your "common sense" was right, poison would not be a thing for NG long time ago. It was recently countered with Veil and numbers of targets are very limited, sometimes bricking your cards.

If you had read my response, it was my point exactly.
I was beeing sarcastic on a previous point, that a ball is a "guaranteed removal of an exceptionally valuable enemy unit".
As I`ve changed ("fixed") previous quote - it is only a mere chance.
And so, counting Ball points value as "higher than any other scenario" is pointless, as there is an extreme RNG factor to ball.
It might kill high, or be more useless than any other scenario.