Why did you kill stealth netrunning?

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Pre-2.0 you also were not able to purely use quickhacks for a stealthy playstyle in early levels, you had to combine Reboot Optics with stealth takedowns which then made Distract/Bait entirely obsolete.
I wonder why some think that it was possible to play full "stealth netrunner" pre-2.0 :(
I always played as "stealth netrunner" before 2.0, always quite rushed The Pickup and The Heist (so at low level), I was never able to use any other QH than optic reboot and manual take down to stay undetected... It started to became possible once you upgraded your cyberdeck and QH to at least, in rare (blue). But with the Militech Paraline and uncommon QHs, no way to play stealth...

At low level, all other QH wasn't just powerful enough to defeat enemies directly.
 

yabab

Forum regular
I absolutely makes zero sense, you know why? If you throw a fucking knive, no one notices! Despite all being in one system and connected. It also works to sneak on to someone and snap his neck...an no one fucking cares. This is just not thought through.
I guess that's because networks have access logs, thrown knives don't.
 
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Guest 3847602

Guest
I wonder why some think that it was possible to play full "stealth netrunner" pre-2.0 :(
Because it was. :)
Ping + Reboot Optics + Short Circuit were enough for everyone to wrap up Watson sidequests and side activities undetected.
Short Circuit wasn't categorized as "combat hack, so wasn't traceable. The insanity known as level-scaling hasn't crept up into the game yet.
When you return to MQ and start playing The Ripperdoc, The Ride, etc... you already have a nice head start. Progress is way more organic, gameplay was way less restrictive and way more fun (at least in my eyes). Playing as a netrunner in early game didn't feel like a walk over a minefield.
 
Ping + Reboot Optics + Short Circuit were enough for everyone to wrap up Watson sidequests and side activities undetected.
Short Circuit wasn't categorized as "combat hack, so wasn't traceable. The insanity known as level-scaling hasn't crept up into the game yet.
Which difficulty?
I mean, I always played in very hard, until I change from the starter Cyberdeck (Militech Paraline, with 4 RAM...) to a rare one (or epic one)* and move from uncommon to rare QHs, it never worked for me. Enemies always survived to any QHs I uploaded and so, entered in combat (I never had enough RAM or RAM recovery to at least upload a second QH anyway).
So not sure how you managed to do it, but I never was, since well... release.

*edit : and if I remember, the first rare Cyberdeck available required 12 street cred... So no "low level".
 
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Dear OP, try learning the new mechanics and you'll see netrunning is as powerful as before, you just need to think a bit more before spamming quickhacks randomly. Besides if you didn't manage to avoid being traced, you can always run away from the enemy tracing you and the bar will disappear.
 

Guest 3847602

Guest
Which difficulty?
I mean, I always played in very hard, until I change from the starter Cyberdeck (Militech Paraline, with 4 RAM...) to a rare one (or epic one) and move from uncommon to rare QHs, it never worked for me. Enemies always survived to any QHs I uploaded and so, entered in combat (I never had enough RAM or RAM recovery to at least upload a second QH anyway).
So not sure how you managed to do it, but I never was, since well... release.
Even on very hard, you should still hit the enemy with more than one Short Circuit and not get insta-detected. They would get alerted, yell at you (or yell at each other), look for you, but to detect you and start shooting at you? No. That's never been my experience with the game. I played twice as stealthy netrunner (first - in December 2020, second time - this August) and choosing stealth from start to finish was never the issue provided you use Watson as your proving ground.
 
Because it was. :)
Ping + Reboot Optics + Short Circuit were enough for everyone to wrap up Watson sidequests and side activities undetected.
Short Circuit wasn't categorized as "combat hack, so wasn't traceable. The insanity known as level-scaling hasn't crept up into the game yet.
When you return to MQ and start playing The Ripperdoc, The Ride, etc... you already have a nice head start. Progress is way more organic, gameplay was way less restrictive and way more fun (at least in my eyes). Playing as a netrunner in early game didn't feel like a walk over a minefield.

I have killed all the npc in the area and I am still getting traced. Indeed these devs do not know what they are doing? Google or Youtube the Fallout dev who tells it like it is and why all games now suc k. Spoiler alert? do not scrool down?




Basic human laziness and not doing their job like they are suppose to. Well of course the owners who demand quick and easy and just push-it-out...ka-ching, ka-ching...going to the bank.
Headshots and Demolition via guns/blades/wire/katana is so much more fun then just stealth hacking... Give it up.. get u some ICE and fight like men should ^^
 
Well of course the owners who demand quick and easy and just push-it-out...ka-ching, ka-ching...going to the bank.

I watched the video of the Fallout dev and I agree with him for the most part.

That being said that isn't what happened with Cyberpunk or CDPR. The way for CDPR to make the most money on Cyberpunk would have been...
  1. Release the game as the buggy mess it was - still sell like 20+ million copies.
  2. Throw some bandaid patches on it.
  3. Move on and don't release an expansion at all for it.
  4. Market the crap out of the next Witcher game and do that right to earn back customer trust.
  5. After new Witcher game earns the trust of the consumer back - release Cyberpunk 2.
They didn't do that though. They spent three years with a dev team of like 300+ patching the game and making an expansion with like 25-30 hours of content. Phantom Liberty (like Blood and Wine/Hearts of Stone) is as big as some major AAA releases in terms of the content it provides.

It's alright not to like Cyberpunk and think it sucks - but CDPR/Phantom Liberty (in this case) isn't really what the Fallout dev was addressing in his video. He was more addressing something like the original release of the game.
 
Thank you for writing long and detailed response, but this only confirms that 2.0 netrunning isn't for me. Doing what it takes at T1 and T2 sounds indescribably boring. :cry:
To use fantasy RPG analogy - it would be like playing as a mage and being required to mindcontrol enemies into walking over the cliff or into the fire.
Not to mention that even at T3, hitting every single enemy with Sonic Shock during every single encounter before doing anything else with them (in a 100+ hours game) sounds just mind-numbing. Simply out of the question as far as I'm concerned... :shrug:

I'd like to add that for me, ping was always a huge thing - the ability to ping enemies and mark them through walls (with the middle mouse button while scanning) to have them tracked all the time was huge. Ping and marking enemies is a small thing but having a full knowledge where the enemies are at all times is huge. With a downside of marking those opponents who stand behind the wall and behind the other hackable machine - sometimes I had to circle the area to do it successfully.

Doing all the missions until Jackie's death took me around 40hrs and for the hotel heist mission I had 20th level which allowed me to buy T3 implants. I did all those missions, main and side missions, by using stealth.

Now I have 90+ hours and I found those early Watson missions as the most fun to do as a stealth netrunner. It's because I couldn't rely on system collapse (covert ultimate hack, makes enemy unconscious without initiating trace) or on a combo of memory wipe->whatever combat hack that kills or other OP stealth combos.

I had to sneak and distract enemies. I often lured enemies to CHOOH2 tanks and then detonated them - it doesn't initiate trace and does enough damage to kill - especially with the "Warning: Explosion Hazard" perk. One can also use the "break chain" hack on stacked crates - If those make contact with an enemy it automatically knocks them out without initiating a trace and it bypasses damage.

After 90hrs all I have to do for a stealth run is to use one of OP combos that will make me undetectable. Or I can use cyberpsychosis on a few enemies in the row through cameras and just watch them kill each other (plus memory wipe to avoid trace).

I don't think it was especially long either - doing those 23 pre-lockdown release missions in Watson along with story missions was enough to put me at higher than 20nd level which allowed me to buy T3 equipment at vendors - and I got T3 cyberdeck earlier anyways by upgrading with crafting materials.

I try to recall how was my 1.0 playthrough which I did around Cyberpunk release around 2020-early 2021. I also used a stealth netrunning and I can't say they were much different at early levels - I still had too little RAM to hack everyone all the time and I relied on the "distract enemy" often. I don't think early netrunning in 1.0 and in 2.0 are very different so I don't really get this complaint honestly.

So, how would you (and possibly OP) like the early/late netrunning to look like?
 

Guest 3847602

Guest
So, how would you (and possibly OP) like the early/late netrunning to look like?
At the bare minimum (for me to even take reinstalling 2.x into consideration):

1) removal of mandatory level-scaling and instead making it optional
2) removal of the current tracing mechanic (where everyone can trace you) and reverting it to pre-2.0 (where only other hackers can trace you)
3) returning Short Circuit from "combat" to "covert" quickacks

Obviously, I'm under no illusion of this ever happening, so this is more about me hoping that people working on the next game don't make the same nonsensical decisions people who worked on 2.0 did. To understand that making stealth a truly viable option requires giving stealth players significantly more potent and fun tools to use from the very start of the game.
 
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At the bare minimum (for me to even take reinstalling 2.x into consideration):

1) removal of mandatory level-scaling and instead making it optional
2) removal of the current tracing mechanic (where everyone can trace you) and reverting it to pre-2.0 (where only other hackers can trace you)
3) returning Short Circuit from "combat" to "covert" quickacks

Obviously, I'm under no illusion of this ever happening, so this is more about me hoping that people working on the next game don't make the same nonsensical decisions people who worked on 2.0 did. To understand that making stealth a truly viable option requires giving stealth players significantly more potent and fun tools to use from the very start of the game.

I'm not sure, but given the changes (not only to stealth netrunning, but overall perk tree's,progression,scaling,gameplay emphasis) that 2.0 is a test of PvE component for future games with online component (redengine multiplayer is dead, but I seem to remember they confirmed that with Unreal they want to add online in future games).
 

Guest 3847602

Guest
I'm not sure, but given the changes (not only to stealth netrunning, but overall perk tree's,progression,scaling,gameplay emphasis) that 2.0 is a test of PvE component for future games with online component (redengine multiplayer is dead, but I seem to remember they confirmed that with Unreal they want to add online in future games).
I haven't thought about it, but now that you mention it - that's actually not a bad guess. :think:
If that's really the case - all I can say is: Shame, but maybe it was inevitable. :shrug:
There is no conceivable way of me showing any interest in future titles if their SP portion operates on MP logic.
 
At the bare minimum (for me to even take reinstalling 2.x into consideration):

1) removal of mandatory level-scaling and instead making it optional
2) removal of the current tracing mechanic (where everyone can trace you) and reverting it to pre-2.0 (where only other hackers can trace you)
3) returning Short Circuit from "combat" to "covert" quickacks

Obviously, I'm under no illusion of this ever happening, so this is more about me hoping that people working on the next game don't make the same nonsensical decisions people who worked on 2.0 did. To understand that making stealth a truly viable option requires giving stealth players significantly more potent and fun tools to use from the very start of the game.

Honestly, those changes you propose here are very minor. 2 and 3 can be very easily implemented by tutorial-level mods - ABC of how to mod CP. And I view them as positive too.

2) Tracing mechanics - we get one netrunner for every 10 fights or so, this proposition would almost remove it. I think the way it works now is good. CP isn't a stealth game but this system at least gives an illusion of danger while stealth hacking. And now it's easily bypassed - you can either upload a memory wipe which reduces the progress (or sonic shock that isolates an enemy in a way that they can't initiate a trace), there are other hacks that can do it too, and there is a cyberdeck that revolves around that too.

This brings us to 3), we have 2 extra slots for quickhacks now and the queue system as well so we don't have to sacrifice anything compared to 1.0 - only keep in mind to upload the memory wipe/sonic shock before the short circuit.

1) suggestion, I agree but I think 2.0 brought us closer to that. And stealth in 2.0 is an approach where numerical scaling is less noticeable to stealth characters compared to combat-focused ones. After all. breaking the neck has no requirements I think.

___
With 1) I agree and I'd like to expand on it.

I think there should be no looter shooter-style level-scaling. But I'd argue 2.0 brought us closer to that. We don't have numerous perks that just increase numbers but we have trees that often give us more options - like an ability to dodge in the air and cover more distance with it.

My opinion would be that at lvl 1 one has 100hp, tier 1 weapon, no perks. At level 60 I'd say just increase total hp to 130 (0.5 hp per level) but now we should have many options in the form of various skills - bolt shots, adrenaline, focus (time slow) for guns, maybe an indirect number boost here and there as a side effect - like slightly increased critical chance. In my opinion, both at level 1 and 60 V should be likely to die in very few shots - maybe not very realistic die in one shot but in 3-4. He wouldn't have any upgrades but he would make up for low health by having much more options.

In the beginning, you'd fight scavengers with no augmentations, baseball bats as a main weapon, with an occasional pistol and AK-47 for a boss.
At the end levels, you'd fight Arasaka soldiers with armour, augmentations, coordinated communication and decent AI.

The brunt of "numerical progression" would fall on upgrading weapons (but T1 pistol would deal 15 damage per shot while T5 would deal 25),

upgrading cyberware - with a titanium skeleton, pain reducers, improved lungs, second heart and armored skin with hardened muscles even a shot that goes through a lung and a heart could be a wound that wouldn't leave much impression on V. And you'd get extra capacity with levels, and maybe shards - just like it is now,

wearing armor - I see it still sees use in CP world, it would make sense for V to also have access to that if he wants to survive. It could use again, a system more similar to 1.0 but with appearance editing. Maybe an option to buy temporary armour in the form of temporary health like is the case of body armour in GTA series? But add some option to customise the worn "equipment". Maybe an option to occasionally pick up heavy armour temporarily. Similar to what Maelstrom uses in the boss fight when you fight them with Jackie.

Cyberware improvements - like a cyberdeck with 38 RAM and 10 hacking slots with tier 5 quickhacks instead of one with 8 RAM, 4 slots and T1 quickhacks.

But I agree that levelling shouldn't scale enemies. And it shouldn't scale V either.

It would just give money for equipment, more cyberware capacity, skills to be used on things that unlock new approaches, moves and attacks rather than offering simple numerical increases. Also, access to new equipment, like was the case with 1.0 street renown (reputation) system. Maybe even big augmentations, like sandevistan and netdeck shouldn't be exclusive. But you would have a choice between having T1 deck with T5 sandevistan or T5 deck with T1 sandevistan. Or T3 of both if that's what you fancy.

While 2.0 introduced scaling and you can take almost any encounter at almost any level, It now brings us closer to the system I'd like to see.
But I agree that there should be enemies that are just too beefy for a character who doesn't have good enough equipment and cyberware. One would still stand a chance against them but one should feel a difference between fighting an Arasaka commando squad and unorganised scavengers.
 
1. IIRC there are perks/cyberware that can make tracing more difficult/slower
2. Netrunning has more of a supportive role now in stealth gameplay(creating distractions, recon) than being able to magically delete your enemies while staying invisible.
3. Detecting a netrunner in the network when he performs offensive actions makes perfect sense lore and gameplay wise. Maybe it could be tweaked a bit as to how many capable netrunners each enemy group has.

I feel like they made a clearer distinction between combat hacking and stealth hacking.

In stealth - you use hacks to create better environment for avoiding/eliminating enemies(quietly but with physical force)

But once you or some anomaly gets noticed(i.e. you mess up) - either in physical or virtual world - tough luck, you enter combat mode, where you can perform more offensive hacks as you don't really care about being detected at this point.

I just completed a stealthy attempt with more than 10 save reloads bc I messed up my stealth either tactically or technically, if felt so good being able to finally complete it.

I just modded the tracking out and the gameplay feels much better. I also modded the hacking to hit a bit harder as well. It's not pre-2.0, but hopefully there will be a mod soon that can bring it all the way back there.

This is a single player game, if I want to stay in stealth and delete npcs, that is my choice. It does not affect anyone else's gameplay. If I wanted to be loud and guns blazing character, there are tons of builds for that.

I don't want to take down enemies by relying on physical force. There are tons of guns and swords for that, I could always choose to do that. Yet since the games first release, from buying it first on the PS4 (and yes I played this game relentlessly on that system when the game came out, that is how much I liked playing it), and then on PC, I always went to the same build. Stealthy netrunner who can take down groups without being seen. I have run this game countless times. Always the same build, the same one that CDPR so callously deleted.

If I wanted a higher difficulty I would just increase the difficulty slider.

There is a reason why the "cheat" mods are popular, they can make the game easier.

There is a reason why build guides are popular, they can make the game easier.

Hacking was perfectly fine for me. It fulfilled my game fantasy perfectly, at exactly the difficulty that I wanted.

If CDPR wanted to add a more difficult version of hacking then fine, but they should have let the old playstyle alone as well.
 
I have to disagree with OP
Initially I felt the same as I was finding it brutally hard to stealth netrun and was getting into combat, but eventually after learning the mechanics, getting a better deck and quickhacks I clicked on and now it is even more OP than ever.

Firstly something to point out, most of the intelligence small perk buffs are useless for a dedicated netrunner, which I find ironic.
Seems they are only good for a new netrunner with weak cyberdeck and quickhacks. Later you want to get rid of them as they are useless.
Like the far left buffs. Queue priority, feedback loop and data recycler. When you have say a purple deck, enemies will be dead or quickhacks will be uploaded so fast you get no buffs from these perks.
They are obviously for lower level netrunner or not dedicated gun/melee build using quickhacks netrunners.

As for the ram cost, so with 4 quickhacks in a queue, last hack is -50% RAM. This sets up ultimate quickhacks for low cost.
Obviously it is taking quicte a but of perk points and max level INT to get there but that is the RPG progress.

Then with quickhacks themselves, each tier increases their buffs, with max level being so damn strong.

For example, upload memory wipe, reboot optics then sonic shock in that order. Guy is toast, non lethally too.

The whole stealth netrunning relies on memory wipe to inject a hack with no trace, and to reduce trace time.
It then relies on sonic shock to hack people close to another enemy without the latter enemy hearing what you are doing. As well as also using it to deafen coms to other enemies and pause a trace so your RAM can recover.

My only gripe is that seeing memory wipe is integral to stealth netrunning, why would it be so expensive.
With for god knows what reason, legendary memory wipe being higher RAM cost than any ultimate quickhack!
Though it is basically an ultimate quickhack on its own, stops everyone from looking for you and gets rid of the trace.
Just seeing memory wipe is so integral to stealth netrunning, it would have been better to have a new ultimate quickhack that does that reset search option instead of having it on memory wipe.
While I am at it, legendary ping is too high cost just to hack devices through walls, that buff should have been on epic and legendary ping should tag every enemy pinged instead.

Goes without saying that i only use epic memory wipe and I may even drop my ping down to epic or rare ping seeing the costs are so high for what is little worth.
 
Goes without saying that i only use epic memory wipe and I may even drop my ping down to epic or rare ping seeing the costs are so high for what is little worth.
Yeah there's a much stronger case for using lower tier quickhacks for the utility belt style of netdecks where you don't care about int so much and have better things to do with your perk points. You are action man and these are just extra cards you can play situationally. You need them to be lightweight and you only need their base effects and not for very long.

It's a shame there isn't a cyberdeck that really suits my style though, I can only make use of one or two stats on them I'm not using monowire.
 
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I'm not playing a netrunner, but I used a cyberdeck for 30+ levels with 4 intelligence for those 2 perk points from the netrunner tree (then heard that Fenrir could get me that XP, oof) and you absolutely CAN stealth netrun. Literally just sonic shock then hit them with as many short circuits as you want. And that's not the only option, the intelligence trees give you many options, the higher tier quickhacks give you many options. Just because you can't immediately solve all your problems at level 1 doesn't mean you can't solve them.
 

Guest 4716340

Guest
Because it was. :)
Ping + Reboot Optics + Short Circuit were enough for everyone to wrap up Watson sidequests and side activities undetected.
Short Circuit wasn't categorized as "combat hack, so wasn't traceable. The insanity known as level-scaling hasn't crept up into the game yet.
When you return to MQ and start playing The Ripperdoc, The Ride, etc... you already have a nice head start. Progress is way more organic, gameplay was way less restrictive and way more fun (at least in my eyes). Playing as a netrunner in early game didn't feel like a walk over a minefield.
So because it isn't how you play, it has to go? Not everyone loves sandevistan.
 
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