RPG Mechanics: Skill Progression and Roles

[Rawls]

Humanity Loss is a confirm mechanic, And i'm pretty sure it is confirmed that you can't become a cyberpsycho, but you CAN get cyberpsychosis, just not stage zero obviously. If i'm wrong, the amount of ludo-narrative dissonance would be staggering. Also disappointing. Since humanity is in the game and you lose it via upgrades, Confirmed by madqueen herself.

If I recall the video correctly ... she was speculating about humanity cost because she figured it was such a core system from the PnP it had to be in. I don't remember her confirming it in at all. I could be wrong ... but I'm pretty sure I'm remembering correctly. I don't remembering hearing it was a confirmed mechanic for the player character anywhere yet that seemed confident and reputible. So please ... give me a link if I'm wrong. You'll make me a very happy Rawls.

 

[Snowflakez]

Humanity Loss is a confirm mechanic, And i'm pretty sure it is confirmed that you can't become a cyberpsycho, but you CAN get cyberpsychosis, just not stage zero obviously. Since humanity is in the game and you lose it via upgrades, Confirmed by madqueen herself.

Sources?

We have not been told that humanity loss is confirmed, nor have we been told that we can become even a low-level cyberpsycho, nor have we been told we lose humanity via upgrades.

If I recall the video correctly ... she was speculating about humanity cost because she figured it was such a core system from the PnP it had to be in. I don't remember her confirming it in at all. I could be wrong ... but I'm pretty sure I'm remembering correctly. I don't remembering hearing it was a confirmed mechanic for the player character anywhere yet that seemed confident and reputible. So please ... give me a link if I'm wrong. You'll make me a very happy Rawls.

I feel like we're all fans of MQ. Or at least watch her videos. Even if she's not our favorite CP YouTuber.

 

[Suhiira]

Combat is "stats-driven," apparently.

For starters we have confirmation there are stats, skills, and perks.
Since Pietras apparently played the CP2020 PnP and specifically mentioned all three I think we can assume he (unlike many "journalists") knows the difference.

He specifically said "When it comes to combat systems we're doing it [on} our own." then separately "When it comes to stats and the gameplay mechanics this is [all] our own." Definitely two separate thoughts/sentences.

Note: The "on" and "all" are in brackets because I'm not entirely sure what word he actually used.

So I'm still not entirely sure the combat, in terms of shooting mechanics, is character/stat driven. The results of a hit are definitely displayed in terms of numbers/stats however.

Based on Reddit comments, some people are REALLY terrified of the idea of combat actually being RPG combat, and not shooter combat.

Most of them have probably never played a "real" RPG so they're probably picturing some sort of isometric autocombat system where you have little to no control over who you attack or how. Since all their previous experience has been with shooters (and RPG lite games) I can understand their apprehension, they can't imagine anything but full player (FPS) control or fully automated combat.

 

[drow5426]

For starters we have confirmation there are stats, skills, and perks.
Since Pietras apparently played the CP2020 PnP and specifically mentioned all three I think we can assume he (unlike many "journalists") knows the difference.

He specifically said "When it comes to combat systems we're doing it [on} our own." then separately "When it comes to stats and the gameplay mechanics this is [all] our own." Definitely two separate thoughts/sentences.

Note: The "on" and "all" are in brackets because I'm not entirely sure what word he actually used.

So I'm still not entirely sure the combat, in terms of shooting mechanics, is character/stat driven. The results of a hit are definitely displayed in terms of numbers/stats however.


Most of them have probably never played a "real" RPG so they're probably picturing some sort of isometric autocombat system where you have little to no control over who you attack or how. Since all their previous experience has been with shooters (and RPG lite games) I can understand their apprehension, they can't imagine anything but full player (FPS) control or fully automated combat.

It’s more the fact the you won’t be able to one shot an enemy tbh. I mean, even with cybernetics and augmentation, if you headshot he should die. From the article it doesn’t appear to be the case. You won’t die from a headshot or one shot. Also people are worried because of bullet sponges. Btw a lot of them have played rpg. They played Deus ex (2000), Baldur's Gate, etc...

 

[BaalNergal]

Hopefully, we won't see skills and stats reduced to these categories:

Hit Things
Shoot Things
Bullet Sponge
Hackity-sax
Useless blah-blah-blah
Boobs

 

[CyberAddict]

If I recall the video correctly ... she was speculating about humanity cost because she figured it was such a core system from the PnP it had to be in. I don't remember her confirming it in at all. I could be wrong ... but I'm pretty sure I'm remembering correctly. I don't remembering hearing it was a confirmed mechanic for the player character anywhere yet that seemed confident and reputible. So please ... give me a link if I'm wrong. You'll make me a very happy Rawls.

I linked it with the proper time stamp, Which should be 2m and 14 secs. But basically she confirms a humanity lost mechanic. Unless were to assume she was mistaken.

 

[Rawls]

I linked it with the proper time stamp, Which should be 2m and 14 secs. But basically she confirms a humanity lost mechanic. Unless were to assume she was mistaken.

That is the first time I've heard Humanity Cost is in. However, in the specifics, she's definitely talking about CP 2020 there, not 2077 (i.e. the 10 points of Humanity Cost = 1 EMP point, 0 Emp and all that). It's clear this is the case because at the end of that discussion she says Adam Badowski says you can't do this all the way. A bunch of the stuff later seems like her speculation to me. Also ... it's been made very clear by multiple Reds in interviews that EMP is not one of the stats you set at the beginning.

However, the fact that she saw humanity cost associated with cyberware is very good to hear. Still would like to hear it from a Red before I get too excited.

 

[CyberAddict]

That is the first time I've heard Humanity Cost is in. However, in the specifics, she's definitely talking about CP 2020 there, not 2077 (i.e. the 10 points of Humanity Cost = 1 EMP point, 0 Emp and all that). It's clear this is the case because at the end of that discussion she says Adam Badowski says you can't do this all the way. A bunch of the stuff later seems like her speculation to me. Also ... it's been made very clear by multiple Reds in interviews that EMP is not one of the stats you set at the beginning.

However, the fact that she saw humanity cost associated with cyberware is very good to hear. Still would like to hear it from a Red before I get too excited.

Yeah, i think it is only natural to assume emp being in the game someway, since humanity cost is a thing in the game. Though this is wishful thinking and speculation at it's best. We know that we can't become cyber psycho, but we probably can start reaching cyber psychosis all the way the lowest possible form without a game over screen. I'd imagine, you'd become more abrasive, Belligerent, unattractive leading to the inability to form a romance or just in general friendships with the meat bags. Maybe hearing/seeing things that aren't there and in general because unable to do quest for specific groups, while others would like your services. Maybe the brainiacs. This could also be the perfect opportunity to showcase max-tac and potentially do quest for them/fight them or w/e. If the player wants to recover some humanity then a therapy mechanic could be introduced and enforced under the threat of violence by max-tac, if you're REALLY low.


That is just how i'd imagine it, And i think that you will have consequences for taking a crap ton of cyberware. This would play into adam's desire to tell a story with theme's of transhumanism sprinkled into it. How the street uses things as mike pondsmith highlighted before

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Combat is "stats-driven," apparently.

Sounds to me like he’s talking about the amounts of damage... no so much accuracy or other control related factors.

 

[Snowflakez]

Sounds to me like he’s talking about the amounts of damage... no so much accuracy or other control related factors.

Could be, yeah. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic.

 

[Ouroboros612]

I'm hoping for the following though I haven't played the PnP version.

Traits

Like in Fallout 1/2, you can choose 1-3 traits which define your character. Traits have a big bonus, but also a big negative. These can only be selected on character creation and lasts for the entire game. Unique traits can be obtained through some quests. An example could be that you run 25% faster, but take 15% more damage from all damage suffered. Or that you reload a lot faster, but also miss more often. Does not have to be combat related.

Traits are great for defining and customizing your character at a core level, and for roleplaying purposes.

Skill Tree

Each class should have skill trees that has MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE options. For example, you can hack faster, or hack with a bonus to hacking skill. Or you get more damage mitigation from light armor OR you run faster in light armor. Mutually exclusive skill branch endings is something that has fallen out from RPGs for some weird ass reason. Mutually exclusive choices are great because you get more customization. Skill trees where you can "just grab everything" and which are linear is stupid imo. Like in Skyrim. Loved skyrim but DAMN the perks trees were bland and braindead. I'm hoping for skill trees that are not linear and where you have to make meaningful choices.

The worst case scenario for me are skill trees and a progression system that does not include mutually exclusive choices, that are linear, and where you can "obtain everything". The most fun thing about player builds, for gameplay and roleplaying, is having to make hard choices. What you get is a truly unique character.

A bad skill and progression system is one where your character can easily be the same as 2456 other characters.
Though I have put heavy weight on mutually exclusive choices above, I'm not talking about overdoing it either. Have branches and paths, with some mutually exclusive options. Make it advanced by some dual-mutually exclusive options giving a unique skill.

For example if I chose A over B and C over D, I can pick a skill that requires A+C, so I end up with A+C+AC and lose B+D+BD

Also Im heavily against free respecs. There should only be a few respecs in the game. One for free, then one at a heavy cost, then a third which will cause light permanent damage to your character, which increases for each respec after this.

I find it kinda retarded that you can go HEY YO IM A SOLO... nm lol Im a Netrunner now. Switching builds and skills "at will" DESTROYS your character's uniqueness. Though you shouldn't be penalized so hard you have to reroll. Hence 3-4 respecs at most.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Could be, yeah. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic.

I don't know how it is, obviously, but he seems choosy with his wordings and underline the number popups.

That kinda implies to me that progression for combat comes from it taking fewer bullets to down an enemy, better penetratative power gain (possibly) through skill and gear.

Not a fan of that if that's the case. I think it's more rewarding to the player - both in terms of results and character progression - when he (at low skill) misses more, but each hit, when pulled off, carries more oomph and results in something more meaningful than dinking a -2 from a health pool of 50 or 100, or something.

 

[Rawls]

I think it's more rewarding to the player - both in terms of results and character progression - when he (at low skill) misses more, but each hit, when pulled off, carries more oomph and results in something more meaningful than dinking a -2 from a health pool of 50 or 100, or something.

I dunno if it's about armor instead of health I could get behind it I suppose. But generally I agree that there should be some skill(s) that effect accuracy (and preferably not via RNG for me).

 

[Snowflakez]

I dunno if it's about armor instead of health I could get behind it I suppose. But generally I agree that there should be some skill(s) that effect accuracy (and preferably not via RNG for me).

ME1's combat comes to mind. It could do with a lot of improvements, but the general concept, I feel, was pretty alright. You have a reticle that dictates cone of fire, and the better your weapon skill, the smaller the reticle, thus the more accurate you are.

Not sure if that's RNG based or not, but I like the idea quite a bit. With smoother animations, more control over your character's movement, and overall better controls and mechanics, a system like that would be neat.

Of course, we are almost 100% not going to see that in 2077. I'm absolutely expecting Call of Duty shooting here. "Stats-driven" combat is a load of BS if it only refers to damage, IMO, but whatever.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I dunno if it's about armor instead of health I could get behind it I suppose. But generally I agree that there should be some skill(s) that effect accuracy (and preferably not via RNG for me).

Well, mechanically it sort of the same difference if it's armor or HP. More bullets to take down an opponent. But yeah, accuracy should really be a factor. I can take RNG all day long and watch "miss" pop up instead of "-2" or what ever, or if the RNG determines the spread of the bullets, and the smart guns could provide that (how ever it works, I seriously hope we can't see the bullets fly unless we specifically opt for tracer rounds), but there are of course other, more "hands on" means to provide that effect for other weapons.

 

[Suhiira]

As I've said (many times) it comes down to; are you controlling an avatar (player control - i.e. FPS) or a character (game control via the character stats/skills - thus by necessity RNG).

Some games try to blur the line between the two but that never works well because they're polar opposites.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I don't know how it is, obviously, but he seems choosy with his wordings and underline the number popups.

That kinda implies to me that progression for combat comes from it taking fewer bullets to down an enemy, better penetratative power gain (possibly) through skill and gear.

Not a fan of that if that's the case. I think it's more rewarding to the player - both in terms of results and character progression - when he (at low skill) misses more, but each hit, when pulled off, carries more oomph and results in something more meaningful than dinking a -2 from a health pool of 50 or 100, or something.

Got the same vibe. Seems like he was hinting at basic RPG mechanics. Pick skill X to get a progressive bonus to damage, crit, whatever. Add more points for a bigger bonus. The wording seems to indicate this is the design.

It's unfortunate to a degree. It would be more immersive if stats impacted weapon control/handling. The trouble is implementing such a system is far more complex and, potentially brings a great deal of problems.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

The trouble is implementing such a system is far more complex

It is harder to pull off, but it should be done nonetheless.

There’s more to be gained with a bit of extra effort than cutting corners.

 

[Rawls]

Phew... We should really take this discussion to another thread. The RPG mechanics thread, maybe?

Why yes. We probably should discuss this stuff somewhere not in news.

But so the coolest thing about the statement (if I'm understanding it right) is it blends types of progression in a really clever way. Skills get better as you use them. So they'll be somewhat like Skyrim in that you'll likely be able to perform all basic functions (hacking, shooting, hitting, lying, persuading, sneaking, crafting etc etc) from the beginning ... but you can improve the skills you successfully use repeatedly to increase the effectiveness of the skill. At least that seems to be the implication.

Perks however are increased using traditional XP and street cred. Meaning there will be some things you don't have access to until you invest in those perks.

I assume (there's that word) that stats will interplay with skills. Perks I'm not so sure that stats will effect since it's already apparent that they interplay with street cred.

 

[Snowflakez]

Why yes. We probably should discuss this stuff somewhere not in news.

But so the coolest thing about the statement (if I'm understanding it right) is it blends types of progression in a really clever way. Skills get better as you use them. So they'll be somewhat like Skyrim in that you'll likely be able to perform all basic functions (hacking, shooting, hitting, lying, persuading, sneaking, crafting etc etc) from the beginning ... but you can improve the skills you successfully use repeatedly to increase the effectiveness of the skil

Perks however are increased using traditional XP and street cred. Meaning there will be some things you don't have access to until you invest in those perks.

I assume (there's that word) that stats will interplay with skills. Perks I'm not so sure that stats will effect since it's already apparent that they interplay with street cred.

Yep, that all sounds pretty much correct to me. I mean, we won't know for sure, but it's the most logical explanation given the information we have so far.

Super excited. This is what a lot of us wanted.

The learn-by-doing thing should also please the "realism" crowd, since that's kinda how the human brain works. Granted, it'll be accelerated... nobody wants to spent 5 in-game years learning to sneak, shoot perfectly, or hack... but close enough.