**Spoilers** Panam Vs Judy **Spoilers**

[Deathstruck92]

So you will curse a suffering friend to hell if they commit suicide? Everyone goes through the stages but not everyone acts that way. So stages is not an excuse or reason to say what she said.

I find it kinda funny how you invoke a strawman in the next paragraph, yet you start off with one. Never said I would do it myself - just maybe trying to make you see why some people would within the context of their character.

I also love your strawman argument comparing her to a "constantly nodding yes-man". Why polar opposites? Doesn't anyone exist in the middle? It might make for an interesting character but it would be a terrible relationship unless you love being belittled as soon as she doesn't get her way.

See that the main point. EVERY time someone doesn't jump to her way she goes ballistic. Or point out one scene where you or anyone tells her no and she agrees.

Uuuh... literally right after her first mission where you can convince her to not go after Nash? She gets slightly pissed but will immediately calm down and follow your lead. Even admit that was the initial deal. And you can still proceed through her questline and relationship too.

Also if you decide to not help her with the tank, she won't get mad at you unless you rat her out to Saul. (in which case, getting mad is a very understandable reaction). She'll be standoffish at most.

And again, so what if she goes ballistic or has a temper? You seem awfully hung up on it. You are free to dislike it ofc, but I still don't see how that makes her a bad character.

Finally, Saul was the FIRST one to say the clan would help you with your situation. Go replay the part after you pass out during the Queen of the Highway quest. He offers himself and the clan and offers you to stay with the clan.

Don't move the goalposts, bud. You talked about selfishness - I counter argumented with her very first reaction that she does once you call her and ask for her help, as you are dying. And everything else she does AFTER Saul dies too, when she becomes the leader. All of which hardly sounds like selfish actions to me.

Saul being first or not is rather irrelevant in this case. But if you wanna play the game of "who was more selfless" next, then how about the fact that Saul flat out admits he's helping you just to get his hands on that Arasaka tech, hm?

 

[andrezzyn]

I wish I hadn't liked the game, being like this without knowing anything about the future of the game is too bad.

 

[stndn]

See you're making an excuse so that means you do agree she acted this way. But it still show she lacks empathy. Bottom line is you don't know how she reacted after. You know what I know that she wished ill on a dead person that was suffering. Sounds like a self-centeered hateful person to me.

No, I don't think her acting that way was appropriate. However, people have different ways of reacting to traumatic events. This is human psychology. Different emotions, same hurt. I have absolutely zero doubt that based on the intimate relationship both V and Panam shared that Panam would have bawled her eyes out seconds after the call.

5 Stages of Grief After Facing a Loss

Exploring these 5 stages of grief could help you understand and put into context your or your loved one's emotions after a significant loss.

psychcentral.com

And let's assume you are correct in saying it's her past. Who would want to dead with someone that messed up then?

"Messed up" is subjective. She's a victim of Night City much like V.

So YOU risked your life first and it was part of the deal that she agreed to. And watch her reaction if you don't want to go for revenge which was NOT part of the deal. She yells, screams and berates you. It was HER plan but V is responsible for Scorpion? Huh?

Yes I risked my life first. That was part of the deal. You don't have to accept her revenge quest with Nash you know?
If you decline she'll get temperamental but she does not berate you. She even admits that we had a defined deal. It has no bearing on your relationship with her long term.

And why would you pick that solution (Nomad/Arasaka)? Do the solo one where no one else dies. She gets at least 4 more people killed, including Saul. And this only happens IF you do plenty more for her and the Nomads. You have to resuce Saul, and get the panzer.

Panam didn't get Saul, Teddy or Bobby killed. Everyone volunteered their lives and there are multiple times where V can tell them to back out. Furthermore, the Aldecaldos have their own intentions for raiding Arasaka. They're not just doing it out of their hearts. The tech you steal from Arasaka is enough to set the clan up for a prosperous future as evident by what Mitch says after the raid.

I picked The Star because I'd rather fight with the Aldecaldos and leave Night City.

BTW Saul is the one to actually say first that the clan will help. Listen to the conversations carefully. Saul offers to help you after you faint at the end of the panzer mission.

Whoever was first to offer assistance is irrelevant when they both offer to help roughly at the same time. Mitch and Saul appear around the time you're talking with Panam. Besides

 

[orangejacinto]

I'm on the JudyExpress.

I do have to say Judy and Panam feel like an evolution of Liara and Garrus respectively.

The young idealist (Judy & Liara), the hothead with a billion plans (Panam & Garrus). Don't even get me started on the Tarot cards and where they appear in the CP77 or the Telepath/Seer lady from Mass Effect 1.

As Liara and Garrus do for Shepard. Judy and Panam are the beating heart of the narrative. They exist before V and Shepard get involved in their lives and are better for it in the end after meeting them. Provided of course you didn't play Shep and Val as psychos hehe. Always they serve as a sounding board for V and Shepard. Will you listen to their points of view, will you ignore them, will you disregard them, all up to the player. That right there is why threads like this exist. We love these characters, we want to hear them talk about some bullshit and ruminate on it. We want to see how they react to what the Protagonist will do. We want to see them laugh, get angry, say something silly, defend who they care about. It ENHANCES the game experience.

Judy & Panam, Liara & Garrus are all great characters and I think they make V and Shepard better as people because they care for each other as friends and/or lovers. The bonds they weave enrich their lives and we connect with that because the relationships you forge with these characters feel authentic. They are as complicated, flawed, and wonderful as any person who likes narrative would hope they would be.

 

[poldengonyboy]

Judy seems passive aggressive Borderlinish.
Panem aggro Borderlineish..
Both arn´t Really "dateable" IRL.
Claire would be cooler.

Lol my ex has BPD and a lot of her personality traits remind me of Panam. Definitely not an ideal situation irl but in a video game, it's hard not to love them, especially given the circumstances of Night City.

Although one thing that I didn't see in either of them that is pretty much the number one thing in someone with BPD is the overwhelming fear of abandonment/being abandoned. Other than Panam's relationship with Saul (which is not really that bad, just at odds.) and Judy's relationship with Maiko, they don't have that willy nilly unstable pattern of relationships with loved ones or family. They could be BPD but I don't think there's enough evidence to say that they are for sure, seems more like just anger issues (Panam) and depression (Judy) along with a healthy amount of trust issues for both, I mean, they're living in NC lol.

 

[Obsidian_Crane]

It’s funny for me the more I replay the more I like Mitch of all the NPCs and wish he was a romance option.

That said, Judy is a character who shifts my perception of V as I learnt on a play through last night. My “head cannon” for the V was she grew up on the streets of Heywood, but she really wanted to get in with the VDBs and her sexual preference was “male”. She also hates Johnny, a lot.

So I played her that way all the way through to the Gig when Evelyn dies. That gig is where Judy just hit me in the mindset of that character. It made me put more thought into what this V would do.

Nothing about Panam’s story before Arasaka Tower makes me think about V.

I respect Panam’s view, her actions are all about protecting her tribe and making it prosperous. She is angry because she feels powerless when you meet her, she has lost nearly everything, and she is disenfranchised in her tribe. As you rebuild her status in the tribe she stops being so angry, and relaxes more. V helps Panam become “fixed”, after meeting her as “broken”.

The Arasaka Tower run is about V, and despite the Nomads being willing to abet and benefiting from the raid, both Saul and Johnny are right. Saul tells you (if you choose right) that Nomads are responsible for the consequences of their decisions. (Which is why Panam accepts responsibility for Scorpion and the others’ deaths, and what Saul is addressing.) Johnny tells you that the Nomads deaths will weigh on your soul. By then you have been told repeatedly that you are “part of the family” (though not formally of course), so V must take responsibility for the tribe members that die on the mission, and you are supposed to think about it in making that choice (it is a key “roleplay” moment).

(You also cannot choose to leave with the Nomads if you take the Rogue ending because V is a different person in that ending, not V and not Johnny, and so will not follow that route.)

Finally I think Panam would make more sense if she looked more 18-20 and less late 20s. Her responses and relationships make a lot more sense (IMO), in that age perspective. It is a quirk of the game, everyone is basically “late 20s” in appearance unless “over 60” or “under 10”, but it’s an issue I think hurts Panam’s emotional portrayal more than other characters.

 

[JagoA]

Finally I think Panam would make more sense if she looked more 18-20 and less late 20s. Her responses and relationships make a lot more sense (IMO), in that age perspective. It is a quirk of the game, everyone is basically “late 20s” in appearance unless “over 60” or “under 10”, but it’s an issue I think hurts Panam’s emotional portrayal more than other characters.

Mitch? Scorpion? Saul???

 

[Goodmongo]

Instead of creating multiple replies to the same question I'm including @stndn in these replies.

I find it kinda funny how you invoke a strawman in the next paragraph, yet you start off with one. Never said I would do it myself - just maybe trying to make you see why some people would within the context of their character.

I didn't use a strawman. You claimed it's a "stage" implying it's natural. So I asked if you would do it. My point is to show it's NOT natural. It's WAY over the top.

Uuuh... literally right after her first mission where you can convince her to not go after Nash? She gets slightly pissed but will immediately calm down and follow your lead. Even admit that was the initial deal. And you can still proceed through her questline and relationship too.

I suggest you watch this clip. then.

She hits the steering wheel and says "Listen to me for fucks sake." If you continue to say no she starts to yell. And then does again for a third time. So it's not "immediately" like you claim. The game has to move on so she does finally agree. But it's clear she's mad and V even says she's immature and pouting.

And again, so what if she goes ballistic or has a temper? You seem awfully hung up on it. You are free to dislike it ofc, but I still don't see how that makes her a bad character.

Because acting that way is a real psychological problem. She has real anger management issues and probably needs medication.

Don't move the goalposts, bud.

Not moving them I'm correcting your statement that she was the FIRST. Saul was the first. Funny that's it's now irrelevant once it's shown she's not the first as you claimed.

And I bet you will defend her when you call her to say good-bye. Even V says he couldn't get a word in edgewise. First it's her just saying hey. follwed about "Do you know what time it is?' Self-centered. NORMAL people would ask if something was wrong if they got a call late at night.

You say sorry to wake you and she has a snarky response again focusing on her and her good night's sleep. And then the real line that shows how self-centered she is. You say I doubt if we'll see each other again and she says "Fuck off". You reply "Not like like" and she says "Make up your mind". Again normal people don't act this way. Plus she KNOWS you are very sick. Yet no concern for you just herself.

I know she was rejected. Bug deal so was EVERYONE in the world at one time or another. She has real psychological issues.

The last part is she does want to come to you but you don't have time. So she starts to tell you what you must do. She basically lays out a plan that you MUST follow. She will help on HER terms. You say "But" and her reply "End of discussion."

Again her way or the highway. I don't like her because she is a self-centered, egotistical and I think suffers from IED or some other psychological ailment.

Here is an article that nails Panam to a tee:

Five Habits Of Controlling People

Controlling people are folks who need to impose their views and worldview on the people around them -- including you! Here are five clues to their behavior. Don't call into these traps yourself!

www.forbes.com

 

[Krul2k]

My brother phones all hours first words out my mouth are ffs do you know what time it is, i basically say that to anyone who tries to phone after 12midnight tbh

I try talk to someone about something important to me or even in general and they keep interupting what im saying, yeah i start to get pissed an normally snap of a stfu till im finished then speak, i hate ppl butting in an not letting ppl talk, ears use them

Her reactions are pretty natural to me, i seen worse for less ih life

 

[andrezzyn]

Instead of creating multiple replies to the same question I'm including @stndn in these replies.


I didn't use a strawman. You claimed it's a "stage" implying it's natural. So I asked if you would do it. My point is to show it's NOT natural. It's WAY over the top.


I suggest you watch this clip. then.

She hits the steering wheel and says "Listen to me for fucks sake." If you continue to say no she starts to yell. And then does again for a third time. So it's not "immediately" like you claim. The game has to move on so she does finally agree. But it's clear she's mad and V even says she's immature and pouting.



Because acting that way is a real psychological problem. She has real anger management issues and probably needs medication.



Not moving them I'm correcting your statement that she was the FIRST. Saul was the first. Funny that's it's now irrelevant once it's shown she's not the first as you claimed.

And I bet you will defend her when you call her to say good-bye. Even V says he couldn't get a word in edgewise. First it's her just saying hey. follwed about "Do you know what time it is?' Self-centered. NORMAL people would ask if something was wrong if they got a call late at night.

You say sorry to wake you and she has a snarky response again focusing on her and her good night's sleep. And then the real line that shows how self-centered she is. You say I doubt if we'll see each other again and she says "Fuck off". You reply "Not like like" and she says "Make up your mind". Again normal people don't act this way. Plus she KNOWS you are very sick. Yet no concern for you just herself.

I know she was rejected. Bug deal so was EVERYONE in the world at one time or another. She has real psychological issues.

The last part is she does want to come to you but you don't have time. So she starts to tell you what you must do. She basically lays out a plan that you MUST follow. She will help on HER terms. You say "But" and her reply "End of discussion."

Again her way or the highway. I don't like her because she is a self-centered, egotistical and I think suffers from IED or some other psychological ailment.

Here is an article that nails Panam to a tee:

Five Habits Of Controlling People

Controlling people are folks who need to impose their views and worldview on the people around them -- including you! Here are five clues to their behavior. Don't call into these traps yourself!

www.forbes.com

Yeah, Panam has problems, she's not perfect, but no one in cyberpunk is, everyone has a bit of crazy.
And I know, it would be great to have more content with Panam, maybe next to V Panam and V too would mature and become a better person, she also lives in a chaotic world, she needs to be strong to face this world.

Panam is Headstrong, and maybe the game will show her at some point that she is not always right.

 

[JagoA]

Instead of creating multiple replies to the same question I'm including @stndn in these replies.


I didn't use a strawman. You claimed it's a "stage" implying it's natural. So I asked if you would do it. My point is to show it's NOT natural. It's WAY over the top.


I suggest you watch this clip. then.

She hits the steering wheel and says "Listen to me for fucks sake." If you continue to say no she starts to yell. And then does again for a third time. So it's not "immediately" like you claim. The game has to move on so she does finally agree. But it's clear she's mad and V even says she's immature and pouting.



Because acting that way is a real psychological problem. She has real anger management issues and probably needs medication.



Not moving them I'm correcting your statement that she was the FIRST. Saul was the first. Funny that's it's now irrelevant once it's shown she's not the first as you claimed.

And I bet you will defend her when you call her to say good-bye. Even V says he couldn't get a word in edgewise. First it's her just saying hey. follwed about "Do you know what time it is?' Self-centered. NORMAL people would ask if something was wrong if they got a call late at night.

You say sorry to wake you and she has a snarky response again focusing on her and her good night's sleep. And then the real line that shows how self-centered she is. You say I doubt if we'll see each other again and she says "Fuck off". You reply "Not like like" and she says "Make up your mind". Again normal people don't act this way. Plus she KNOWS you are very sick. Yet no concern for you just herself.

I know she was rejected. Bug deal so was EVERYONE in the world at one time or another. She has real psychological issues.

The last part is she does want to come to you but you don't have time. So she starts to tell you what you must do. She basically lays out a plan that you MUST follow. She will help on HER terms. You say "But" and her reply "End of discussion."

Again her way or the highway. I don't like her because she is a self-centered, egotistical and I think suffers from IED or some other psychological ailment.

Here is an article that nails Panam to a tee:

Five Habits Of Controlling People

Controlling people are folks who need to impose their views and worldview on the people around them -- including you! Here are five clues to their behavior. Don't call into these traps yourself!

www.forbes.com

Your characterization of her is super unfair and uncharitable. I will give a slightly more charitable take, given that as my post previously already stated, her storyline (and probably Judy''s as well) seem incomplete, given everything already presented in the game.

On wanting help with Nash: She is being vengeful here, that is purely the case. She was frustrated that she got betrayed and wants some payback, but she can't do it by herself, and gets irritated when it you don't want to help her, that is completely fine, she is realizing she is powerless to do something by herself. V calls her immature for not talking? Yes, but this is in the context of V choosing to treat their interaction as purely something Transactional, and nothing more.

Is going after nash rational? no, but she has lost control of a lot of things recently (aldecaldos, nash, her ride, rogue) so she is in a bad spot, and wants to feel some kind of control back in her life... a weak moment for her? Sure, doesnt mean she needs meds, nor does it signify a psychological problem lol.

On the topic of your call to her in the rooftop: She was sleeping, she got woken up, her reply of :do you know what time it is: is perfectly a normal annoyance to getting woken up. If you tell her sorry, she makes a joke about waking her up to tell her sorry to wake her up, it's nothing but lighthearted banter. If you do tell her we might not see each other again, she immediately misunderstands that you're breaking up with her, which is again, a sore spot for her who had the same done to her so much recently, her response here is not that unreasonable given that during your last convo in her last mission you vaguely give a yes/no answer to her inviting you to be with her and the aldecaldos.

Once she realizes you're trying to tell her something serious, she asks you where you are and when you tell her it's not for comms she says shes on the way. When you say you cant wait any more, she tries to calm you down, to take deep breaths and call her back because she's there for you. It's really telling how you left all this part out....

I don't know why you take her character flaw so personally and amplify it as if she's psycho, but hey that's your opinion and you can have it. Just don't say she's not likeable because if it isn't obvious enough there are plenty who think she is! It's part of writing decent characters, they gotta have strengths and flaws

 

[stndn]

I think you're blowing this out of proportion @Goodmongo

And I bet you will defend her when you call her to say good-bye. Even V says he couldn't get a word in edgewise. First it's her just saying hey. follwed about "Do you know what time it is?' Self-centered. NORMAL people would ask if something was wrong if they got a call late at night.

V calls her at 3AM saying "Hey Panam". The way she acted was reasonable and it's clear she didn't have any ill-will in her tone. And when you explain your condition and Mikoshi to her she immediately says "OK". No questions asked, she tells you to stay put so she can come pick you up. At 3AM.

Does that sound self-centered to you?

Again her way or the highway. I don't like her because she is a self-centered, egotistical and I think suffers from IED or some other psychological ailment.

Cherry picking flaws to paint a character in a bad light is reductive at best.

 

[Deathstruck92]

I didn't use a strawman. You claimed it's a "stage" implying it's natural. So I asked if you would do it. My point is to show it's NOT natural. It's WAY over the top.

No, the strawman was you trying to insinuate that I would somehow react the same if my loved one has passed or commited as awful as a suicide. Not quite sure what would lead you to making that ridiculous comment.

My mention of it being a stage was to illustrate that there ARE people in real life who have these reactions and go through these things. Doesn't matter how much "unnatural" you consider them.

I suggest you watch this clip. then.

She hits the steering wheel and says "Listen to me for fucks sake." If you continue to say no she starts to yell. And then does again for a third time. So it's not "immediately" like you claim. The game has to move on so she does finally agree. But it's clear she's mad and V even says she's immature and pouting.

So she gets pissed at you after you interrupt her 3 times in a row while she's talking and on a personal vengeful streak, but eventually will conclude you are right in the end.

I will admit that "immediately" was maybe not the right term (it's been a while since I did her questline as well) but again, what is the problem here? I thought you asked for examples when someone tells her no and she agrees, which she does in this case. Unless she is not agreeing fast enough for you, or something?

Not moving them I'm correcting your statement that she was the FIRST. Saul was the first. Funny that's it's now irrelevant once it's shown she's not the first as you claimed.

It's irrelevant because I literally never brought up anything about anyone being "first" (Saul or otherwise), until you did and then suddenly decided to impose it as the main argument on top of the old one. That's exactly what is called goalpost moving.

My response was aimed at your statement about her being selfish, which I debunked with examples of her actions and intentions. You doubling down and focusing just on her tone will still not make them any less true or valid.

Also let me ask you something: are you gonna give shit to Judy and River too for blocking you out of their lives once you refuse to help them, because it's "selfish and self-centered" of 'em as well?

And I bet you will defend her when you call her to say good-bye. Even V says he couldn't get a word in edgewise. First it's her just saying hey. follwed about "Do you know what time it is?' Self-centered. NORMAL people would ask if something was wrong if they got a call late at night.

You say sorry to wake you and she has a snarky response again focusing on her and her good night's sleep. And then the real line that shows how self-centered she is. You say I doubt if we'll see each other again and she says "Fuck off". You reply "Not like like" and she says "Make up your mind". Again normal people don't act this way. Plus she KNOWS you are very sick. Yet no concern for you just herself.

What? you have some kind of a bizzare hate boner against how the character was written, to the point where you start nitpicking even the most trivial and natural things, such as sounding annoyed when half-asleep... and somehow conclude from that she is the ultimate self-centered example?

Look, as I said - it's fine if you don't like the character. And I accept that her anger management issues can be offputing to some.
But at this point, most of your reasons just sound hella nitpicky and quite clearly in bad faith or puposefully reductive, given how cherry picked they are. You're so blatantly biased, we almost cannot see you from behind that glare.

Like someone else said before me: Really no idea why are you taking her flaws so personally.

 

[nadsh]

@Goodmongo I think this is exacerbated by the fact that V is dying and Panam is a stranger at that point, so her request to go after Nash and following reaction can feel uncalled for since V already fulfilled their end of the deal and time is short. She can also be quite immature and childish in her interactions with Saul and Mitch, even though she's right about him being a weak leader. I wouldn't say that she's selfish though, she's the only LI that sticks her neck out for V regardless of whether they're romanced or not.

Both characters are well written and full of life but also have significant flaws, which one will bother you the most likely depends on how you play V. I found Panam more grating but Judy more selfish since she leaves NC without even waiting for V or showing any concern for their condition in the Arasaka/Legend endings.

 

[rexxgta]

Judy more selfish since she leaves NC without even waiting for V or showing any concern for their condition in the Arasaka/Legend endings

I think this is because Judy just wants to live a quiet peaceful life (just guessing that). She's lost quite a few close people, Evelyn, Tom and nearly Roxanne. I think she just got fed up with it all. Going with the Aldecaldos makes her happy for that exact reason.

I personally like Judy over Panam despite them both being great side-characters!

 

[poldengonyboy]

Some people are just too sensitive for Panam That's okay though

 

[Goodmongo]

Honestly the replies I'm seeing if almost identical to how someone would react when a dear friend tells them their girlfriend is bad for them and has serious mental issues. You people are being way to defensive and excusing behavior that you would not tolerate in others. It's the classic situation of how dare anyone say anything bad about the person I like.

Maybe in a DLC they will show other sides but the evidence is overwhelming that Panam has serious issues. And what was also clear is when no one could actually refute the behavior excuses were made. That's called enabling.

Anyway I've said my piece and you've said your piece. The good thing it's just a game and you won't actually have to live with someone like Panam in the real world.

 

[neocyril]

Honestly the replies I'm seeing if almost identical to how someone would react when a dear friend tells them their girlfriend is bad for them and has serious mental issues. You people are being way to defensive and excusing behavior that you would not tolerate in others. It's the classic situation of how dare anyone say anything bad about the person I like.

Maybe in a DLC they will show other sides but the evidence is overwhelming that Panam has serious issues. And what was also clear is when no one could actually refute the behavior excuses were made. That's called enabling.

Anyway I've said my piece and you've said your piece. The good thing it's just a game and you won't actually have to live with someone like Panam in the real world.

Lol, I stayed from this thread because I personally don't care.

But I'm dropping in just to say that people need to relax. At the end of the day the said character is still fictional so don't loose your mind just because someone likes or dislikes the character in question. And most importantly let's not get personal

Panam vs Judy question...

I like both

 

[Deathstruck92]

Honestly the replies I'm seeing if almost identical to how someone would react when a dear friend tells them their girlfriend is bad for them and has serious mental issues. You people are being way to defensive and excusing behavior that you would not tolerate in others. It's the classic situation of how dare anyone say anything bad about the person I like.

Maybe in a DLC they will show other sides but the evidence is overwhelming that Panam has serious issues. And what was also clear is when no one could actually refute the behavior excuses were made. That's called enabling.

Anyway I've said my piece and you've said your piece. The good thing it's just a game and you won't actually have to live with someone like Panam in the real world.

You misunderstood. I am fine if people don't like what I do. Hell, that's just life.

Also literally no one here is refuting she has anger management problem. The only thing being refuted is the way you tried to convey some of those arguments (along with some facts being set straight), is all. Ain't nothing "enabling" about that.

But yeah, sorry if I came out sounding a bit abrasive. Was a bit of a long day for me, and I may have been a bit cranky.

Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[UgzAube]

But don't worry those who prefer Panam, she's still cool.