Personally, I blame Chris and Sard. Often.
I'd like to get into Chris' ridiculous assertions re: prejudice and some magical lack thereof, but I'm being mindful of the topic, and don't want to stray too far, as we have so many times (I still blame Chris and Sard BTW).
To put it generally, and specifically in regards to sexism, humans have to work hard not to be biased towards others for the most trivial of differences. Cognitive shortcuts that helped us fight sabretooths are prevalent, as well as troublesome. The differences in pay if you're bald, short or ugly as opposed to tall, good looking and bemaned are huge. Larger than the pay gap between men and women in the first world by a significant margin. A study done in Queensland showed that bus drivers who identified as not being racist were 20% less likely to let black people on the bus for free than white people. Unless the black person was in a suit, or military uniform, then he was more likely to get on for free than a white person not wearing either.
Prejudice is a constant thread throughout human experience, and to be honest, I don't see cyberware escaping it either. Religions just love taking stands against the "unnatural", and when you combine that with cyberpsychos, I can see the same types of people who claim natural disasters were due to God's wrath at (insert minority here) doing the same with cyberpsycho killing sprees, and the gormless profiteering media lapping it up like they do Westboro Baptist Church...
I'd like to get into Chris' ridiculous assertions re: prejudice and some magical lack thereof, but I'm being mindful of the topic, and don't want to stray too far, as we have so many times (I still blame Chris and Sard BTW).
To put it generally, and specifically in regards to sexism, humans have to work hard not to be biased towards others for the most trivial of differences. Cognitive shortcuts that helped us fight sabretooths are prevalent, as well as troublesome. The differences in pay if you're bald, short or ugly as opposed to tall, good looking and bemaned are huge. Larger than the pay gap between men and women in the first world by a significant margin. A study done in Queensland showed that bus drivers who identified as not being racist were 20% less likely to let black people on the bus for free than white people. Unless the black person was in a suit, or military uniform, then he was more likely to get on for free than a white person not wearing either.
Prejudice is a constant thread throughout human experience, and to be honest, I don't see cyberware escaping it either. Religions just love taking stands against the "unnatural", and when you combine that with cyberpsychos, I can see the same types of people who claim natural disasters were due to God's wrath at (insert minority here) doing the same with cyberpsycho killing sprees, and the gormless profiteering media lapping it up like they do Westboro Baptist Church...
Hey! I...
But...
...
Fair cop...
Ah, now I didn't say there would be a lack of prejudice. Quite the opposite. I merely voiced my opinion that the primary focus of this prejudice would be less likely to be based upon the colour of someones skin but it would be their social standing.
When I did my course so the SIA would allow me to work as a doorman, we learned that there are basically 4 kinds of people in the world:
Just about everyone is prejudiced in one form or another. We do not choose this and there is next to nothing we can do about it. The most important thing is wether they act upon this prejudice.
The above example is aimed at racism, but it can be adapted to any form of prejudice or discrimination.
I tended to avoid religeon in 2020, (unless it was to do with a wacko...) I just don't see much of a future in the world of Technoshock and the 24 hour lifestlye.
We have airplanes, interwebs, brain-controls for computers and wheelchairs. We cured Polio and smallpox, went to the moon, and harnessed the power of the sun itself for both electricity and destruction. If that hasn't made everyone get over jeebuz, I hardly think eye-Laz0Rz will be the proverbial straw.
Also, religion and sexism do have a historical connection. Where there is any social movement that tries to combat prejudice, there'll be a religion chucking a tanty cuz someone's taking their toys away...
Aside from the fine line that I can sense rapidly approaching, you have made a valid point.
However, I pose a counterpoint:
At one point religeon ruled everything. Just about every European King and Emperor bowed to the will of the Church, (did you know that the Caothlic Church banned the use of Arabic numbers instead of Roman Numerals, they were classed as "The Devils Numbers" and you could be burned at the stake for using them,) and anyone in the Middle East can attest to the actions taken in the name of Faith. That, slowly, began to change as we moved out of the middle ages and into the ages of Science. As little as 50 years ago it would have been a very odd thing for someone not to go to Church on a Sunday and it was only in 1994 where 'Sunday Trading' for shops was generally allowed, (only a very limited range of businesses were previously allowed to open on a Sunday.)
Heck, if you asked the populace of England what the official Religeon of the country is, most would probably say Catholic, even though it is actually C of E, (The Church of England,) of which the Queen is the head, not the Pope.
As we progress Technologicaly we place less and less importance on Religeon, (at least this is true of most 'westernised' cultures, and Theocratic States are the basically exception to this.) It is my belief, based on this evidence, that as technology develops at an exponential pace, so does the importance of religeon in daily life diminish. Hence why in the 2020 game setting, I put little to no importance on Religeon.
Obviously I haven't taken into account the effects of desperation, as this is often the main impetus for Religeous resurgence. But I feel that TV, the NET and Social Media would overide that.
Leaving games' top models aside i remember all gits works feature different (yet minor) takes on female figures in cyberpunk worlds. It's good material for those without the "they better not fuck it up" attitude
Oh my, I had a directly on-topic thought: Considering one could be a female protagonist, it'd be nice if CDPR gave us the option of sexually objectifying all genders, rather than just women... I play a lot of different character types, but I've never been that keen personally on playing completely lesbian characters. Just a bit to far out of my personal frame of reference, kinda feels like playing a really rich, privileged, handsome person... Y'know, just a little too unrealistic.
So yeah, please make with the cards of scantily-clad, oiled up cyberstudz, kthxbai.
So yeah, please make with the cards of scantily-clad, oiled up cyberstudz, kthxbai.
Of course it should. Women and men are treated differently and that's a fact. In different cultures, they have different roles.
It is a huge shame that we let political correctness dictate the way we express ourselves . I wouldn't blame Red in particular for this but this has been a part of a general trend since at least the 60s.
It has contributed to mediocrity in the art and it needs to stop.
I simply don't think that it should address the issue, it should just depict them honestly and let the player make his own decision, and that's it.
It is a huge shame that we let political correctness dictate the way we express ourselves . I wouldn't blame Red in particular for this but this has been a part of a general trend since at least the 60s.
It has contributed to mediocrity in the art and it needs to stop.
I simply don't think that it should address the issue, it should just depict them honestly and let the player make his own decision, and that's it.
S'funny, I get accused on occasion of this "Political correctness" stuff, yet I never attended a seminar or sat in while they drafted the dogma. It's more that I've kept my eyes open and realised that the things we class as masculine and feminine are just human. It's all points on a spectrum really, and just because of statistical kinks that mean one person is slightly more likely to be somewhere other than you is no reason to treat them meanly. Take each human as they come, that's my motto. Shit, I've got ex girlfriends who'd agree strongly with what you say, and ex girlfriends that have a proven track record of extremely competent violent behavior who'd possibly leave you with scars for saying that. Yet they all had vaginas, and thus were functionally the same.
Besides, this is Cyberpunk... If you want everyone to conform to their socially assigned roles, there's not going to be much call for gameplay
Sorry if I offended you.I actually didn't read the thread and missed your post so I genuinely did not mean to. I agree that the player should be left to play the way he wants(including a truck driving lesbian if that's his thing. )
It must be different in your country.
Here feminism is part of the curriculum since high school. I'd rather not get into a lengthy debate so I'll just say this.
In the West, we tend to ignore institutions and culture in favour of individuals but that's a big mistake.
Espescially if you deal with less privileged "classes".
Take the Hells' angels for example. Their policy is "No Niggers" and basically no women .
A feminist wanted to enter the Hells, she actually sued for sexual discrimination and won. They gave her a T-shirt with "Property of Hells Angels MC" on it. Tells you what they think of women.
How does a woman succeed in rising in this environment --- even if she is a butch he-man that defied stereotypes?
I understand that it is cyberpunk, but I think a proper explanation should be made as to why that happened. I myself never played the original CP2020 and so I would find it hard to believe.
It must be different in your country.
Here feminism is part of the curriculum since high school. I'd rather not get into a lengthy debate so I'll just say this.
In the West, we tend to ignore institutions and culture in favour of individuals but that's a big mistake.
Espescially if you deal with less privileged "classes".
Take the Hells' angels for example. Their policy is "No Niggers" and basically no women .
A feminist wanted to enter the Hells, she actually sued for sexual discrimination and won. They gave her a T-shirt with "Property of Hells Angels MC" on it. Tells you what they think of women.
How does a woman succeed in rising in this environment --- even if she is a butch he-man that defied stereotypes?
I understand that it is cyberpunk, but I think a proper explanation should be made as to why that happened. I myself never played the original CP2020 and so I would find it hard to believe.
*sigh* This thread is depressing. I'm almost tempted to start a thread about playing a male protagonist and what that implies. We can speculate on what it's like to play a male character in a video game and what a new and refreshing experience it is.
On topic, I don't want the female character I play to have a, significantly, different experience to playing a male character. If there are say seduction opportunities for example they should be there for both sexes and sexual orientations. What I would hate to see is a seduction mechanic for a female character replacing a diplomatic or persuasion option for a male character.
I would also be very disappointed to have gender roles forced on the player character or to have any of the Cyberpunk 2020 roles, as interpreted in the game, to be gender locked. I do want different player roles and skills to have different implications however.
I even see where occasions of discrimination could be used to flavour the world in Cyberpunk 2077 but what would that entail? I'm more interested in the implications of tech or cyberware use and even economic differences that could lead to discrimination than sexism.
On topic, I don't want the female character I play to have a, significantly, different experience to playing a male character. If there are say seduction opportunities for example they should be there for both sexes and sexual orientations. What I would hate to see is a seduction mechanic for a female character replacing a diplomatic or persuasion option for a male character.
I would also be very disappointed to have gender roles forced on the player character or to have any of the Cyberpunk 2020 roles, as interpreted in the game, to be gender locked. I do want different player roles and skills to have different implications however.
I even see where occasions of discrimination could be used to flavour the world in Cyberpunk 2077 but what would that entail? I'm more interested in the implications of tech or cyberware use and even economic differences that could lead to discrimination than sexism.
I don't give a shit about gender locking..are you familiar with CDPR? Do you understand that they approach such topics with care and deliberation?
Well. I don't know if I'd regard the sex cards as "care" per se. I'm also not sure how deliberate CDPR are in their choices, sticking to an artistic or thematic view instead of one carefully contoured for their widest possible audience almost as a business-wide policy it seems. Perhaps a carefully-considered policy or perhaps one of stated intent at the outset of operations.
In any case , you may be assured that political correctness and gender issues, while I'm pretty sure CDPR considers them, ( maybe briefly), will take second place to solid story telling and game design. As it should be.
In any case , you may be assured that political correctness and gender issues, while I'm pretty sure CDPR considers them, ( maybe briefly), will take second place to solid story telling and game design. As it should be.
I totally agree.
If political correctness gets in the way of a good story, or the lack of it will benefit the story, then cut or loose.
I dunno, I'd like just one game I'm thinking of playing not to cause a massive feminist backlash due to rampant misogyny. The less I have to be exposed to what I consider to be some flawed foundations to some modern feminist theory, the less I end up having to rant to my girlfriend about the stupid.
Keeping some real-world facts in mind should help: 1) No matter how often people wish it to be the case, not everyone is Bi. 2) Some people are turds. 3) Humans are incredibly varied in sexual behavior, attraction, treatment of others, and biases. 4) Rhonda Rousey.
Discuss.
At least it gives you something to talk to your girlfriend about.
When I said, "cut it loose", I didn't mean ignore it. I meant that characters and NPCs should be able to display prejudice in the game, but they should also suffer the consequences of the level of political correctness deemed normal within the game.
When I said, "cut it loose", I didn't mean ignore it. I meant that characters and NPCs should be able to display prejudice in the game, but they should also suffer the consequences of the level of political correctness deemed normal within the game.
Now it might be harder for you because apparently your girlfriend threaten bodily harm to people with divergent opinion... but
One of my English teacher once said that to be a good writer, you have to write as if you were writing only for yourself. If you are creating art in order to please your girlfriend or avoid backlash from feminists, just by doing that, it is going to show and whatever you're creating is going to be a little bit worse for it.
Hmmm... I may not be a Captain, nor have I caused any death, but you strike me as having the less valid handle of the two of us
I'm just sick to death of the ridiculous divide in games at the moment, between the "There's no problem" brigade and the "It's all problems" brigade. The middle ground is truest I feel. There are some massive issues with some games, and they filter through the culture like all other art. I'd vastly prefer to play a game that doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Also, um... Could you please clarify that first sentence? It's so out of step with what I said, and my relationship, that I'm tempted to believe it's just a joke that fell totally flat. If it was funny, it probably wouldn't have brought to mind significant issues from my past, and juxtaposed them against the blissful relationship I'm now in.
But then, you write for yourself, not for anybody else. So if you could not write to me anymore, I could stop being so fucking angry. Yay for flashbacks mixed with direct insults.
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Wow bro, you got issues.
I did not mean to offend.Sorry I said anything.
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I did not mean to offend.Sorry I said anything.
MOD: Inappropriate comment removed