Highlighting Anything Interactive

[EliHarel]

Highlighting Anything Interactive

GameSpot released a video about trends in gaming that need to go away. One of them was all the highlighting loot, item sonar, detective mode stuff. And I found myself completely agreeing with them.

Lately I've been playing Skyrim to scratch that fantasy itch until TW3 arrives. That GameSpot video made me realize that one of the things I very much enjoy about it, and in Fallout 3 as well, is that items aren't highlighted. This means that in every camp I came across along the road, every bandit fortress I assaulted and every cave I fought my way through, I took my sweet time to study every nook and cranny. And I mean that in the very best way.

Because the game didn't tell me what I can or cannot interact with. On the way, It made me notice details I otherwise would have missed. In contrast, whenever there's an item-highlight mode, I find myself on auto-pilot. I just go straight for the loot, and then it's off to the next objective. And if I stay in a room to study it, it's much less interesting, because I know that my exploration won't reveal something new to interact with. There can be no surprises. No hidden levers, no smartly placed swords. You highlight. You loot. You move on. And that's a damn shame. I believe that a game should encourage you to experiment and try out things. When it tells you clearly "this you can interact with, this you can't" then it kills the mystery, and doesn't promote inquisitiveness.

What Skyrim does well at the micro level it doesn't do well at the macro - at finding quests, navigating the map, etc. While in chambers I found myself happily inspecting every cabinet and every desk, and under the table and under the bed and outside the window, etc, while traveling the world I often found myself just going straight as an arrow to the next marker on my compass. I honestly regret that I didn't find out about this mod sooner. It's what I hope TW3's journal entries will look like.

(I'm bringing up Skyrim just because it's the most fresh example in my mind, having played it in the past two weeks, so don't get your panties in a bunch)

So far we don't know too much about how TW3 will be in this aspect so we're left to speculate and analyze what footage we already have. There's that "quest exclamation mark" on the mini-map that was mentioned a lot of times, but on the micro level of item looting, I find myself regretting that CDPR didn't go for a no-highlight route, too (maybe they'll surprise me). Witcher senses seem to highlight interactive things such as loot, like the medallion did in TW2, and after that recent introspection of mine I realize that it's something I would have preferred to be gone. The other aspect of witcher senses has the potential to be cool - the monster tracking. Thing is, going by the preview, it might turn out to be a very linear path. You're pretty much on rails with the witcher senses. Originally I thought it might be a deeper level of investigation, with branching paths that will make you have to study and understand this or that clue. At the moment it seems it doesn't do that.

I find it ironic. One of the main advantages of fantasy open world games, the way I see it anyway, is the exploration. But here we have more and more features that don't promote exploration, but instead hold your hand in leading you to the next objective, to the next piece of loot. A lot of the sense of exploration is diminished this way, and to me it feels like a sad miss for open world games in the aspect of navigating the world, and in RPGs in general in the aspect of finding loot and studying the details. I admit that TES being 1st person games and TW being 3rd makes a bit of a difference, in that TES allows you to pick up more details because you're "zoomed" in, so to speak. But I don't think that's a difference significant enough to mean 3rd person games need to highlight everything.

What do you guys think?

And just as a pre-preemptive comment - yes, I know the game is feature locked. Yes, I know we'll have to wait and see how it's done in the actual product. So just consider this a discussion about what would serve best in an open world RPG like TW3.

 

[savioeven]

I have two words for you
"play darksouls"

 

[JackalJ]

Well in a big world as TW3, I think I will find it handy to see the quest marker on my minimap. Of course the UI is customizable, So I will do a walkthrough with as minimal info and minimal UI as is possible. And I think that the quest markers and the highlighting stuff are handy because in DA:I (especially on Origin) I liked to read and collect every codex entry, and any of the books or notes scattered in a scene. That and that the enemy's barely had any interesting loot on 'em. So this is a plus for Highlighting because you can quickly see any interesting stuff in the room you are in. (God, I remember now how hard it was to find any interesting books and complete a quest in the mage tower of DA:O without the highlight button.)
So If the world is interesting enough and it's not impossible to find notes or loot scattered across a dungeon or room I'm okay with not highlighting anything. But if it's really hard to find things on the ground, I doubt I will be doing that collecting long and will barely look at the environment any longer than I need.

I will say, It also depends on the game and it's universe in which it is founded. For example, The Division and Mass Effect 4, I can imagine the characters in these games can have some device or method of finding interesting notes or points of interest. (because of advance tech) In a game like The Witcher or Dragon Age it's a lot harder to not make it immersion breaking.

 

[savioeven]

Jackalj
I agree with your statement and especially for me who wants to kill stuffs and not waste time in searching an item for couple of hours(like some mmo games)......

 

[EliHarel]

Well in a big world as TW3, I think I will find it handy to see the quest marker on my minimap.

But you see, that's where I think an open-world game loses one of its points (beyond me to say "its entire point" - I suppose it has many). Part of what draws me to open-world fantasy games is exploration and adventuring. I find that sense of wonder almost completely gone when the game does the discovering for me. I'm looking at that Skyrim mod, and I honestly find these sort of journal entries, without markers on the map, great:

To find the barrow, I should start in Riverwood. I am to head out of town on the north road and after the bridge, take the trail to the left up the mountain. Bleak Falls Barrow lies beyond the old tower, just up the path.

It's not too complicated as in giving professional-styled coordinates with maps to interpret and end up frustrating you, but the game won't show it to you, either. You need to keep your eyes open, and understand what the directions are. This is a simple example, but imagine how cool it can be with more vague directions and longer journeys? That might make an actual, active adventure. With an open-world game telling you where most things are, the main effect of the open-world is reduced to "big expanse of terrain to get across", instead of "world to investigate".

That's one aspect. The other is item highlighting (which was mostly what prompted me to this thread, really). I understand that people want to pick up every bit of lore. I want that, too. But that can still be achieved by, well, looking. Games that highlight your items lower the risk of you missing out on something, but the cost of which is completely taking away any surprise and wonder. Why bother looking around that corner, if the lack of shiny effect on my screen tells me there's nothing there? Some might say "explore that corner for the sake of exploration and because the details are cool", but I'm not convinced. If you explore something with the certainty that you won't find anything to interact with, that exploration is much less exciting in a video game, whose main advantage is interactivity.

 

[JackalJ]

Well I find quest markers handy for seeing where new quests are. And I haven't tried that mod for skyrim so I don't know in what way you get new quests.

But I agree. If the journal is written in a good and clear way, so you know where you need to go or what to do, then there wouldn't be a need for a lot of quest markers. Except perhaps, for me personally, the exclamation mark to find new quests. But from the 15 minutes of game play it looks like even those aren't necessary. Because quest givers will call you out or you can find them through the message board in town.

 

[ReptilePZ]

On items being highlighted, hidden levers etc. It works in Skyrim because you're playing from a first person perspective. With that zoomed out camera in TW3, it'd be very hard to spot anything.

 

[EliHarel]

Well I find quest markers handy for seeing where new quests are. And I haven't tried that mod for skyrim so I don't know in what way you get new quests.

But I agree. If the journal is written in a good and clear way, so you know where you need to go or what to do, then there wouldn't be a need for a lot of quest markers. Except perhaps, for me personally, the exclamation mark to find new quests. But from the 15 minutes of game play it looks like even those aren't necessary. Because quest givers will call you out or you can find them through the message board in town.

Well, quest markers in Skyrim (and I think in most other RPGs, too?) tell you not where to find a new quest, but where you can complete quests you already activated. This particular mod takes away the markers and adds to the journal entries a few extra lines of directions, leaving you to examine the world and navigate based on that.

How to find quests, then? By talking to people! I think that's more interesting than just following exclamation marks

On items being highlighted, hidden levers etc. It works in Skyrim because you're playing from a first person perspective. With that zoomed out camera in TW3, it'd be very hard to spot anything.

Yeah, I was thinking about that. Mentioned it in my original post. It also works in Skyrim because you have a huge amount of items, whether equipment or misc or books, so you actually need to look at what you're picking up to not carry junk and become encumbered. I agree that it's more tricky for a 3rd person view. But it's not impossible - it just means you need to have much less misc items, or items that aren't as small as rings. It's fun finding them in a 1st person game, but I agree that tiny items aren't practical in 3rd.

 

[frynse]

I do hope that it's something you can toggle off if you want for the reasons you pointed out, but it can also be handy in some situations.
Preferably I would like it to be something you can enable at the press of a bottom like in tw1, but since it's not pc exclusive, I doubt they're going to do that. Wouldn't be a big issue, but I'll be annoyed if you can't disable it at all in the options.

 

[thislsmadness]

I'm not sure I would call item highlighting a trend, its pretty much been around since the late 90s or so? I think the reason it became dominant is because most games moved away from allowing players to inspect large amounts of items in given location. That created a problem where, unlike you, players weren't really studying their surroundings. Instead, they would just mindlessly run the mouse all over an area until they found an interact icon or in the case of console games, you'd walk around mashing "A" until you found something... this became known as pixel hunting, which got a bad wrap, and thus devs responded with item highlights.

I can see both sides of the argument though, and item highlighting seems like one of those things that should be easy enough to give people an option to toggle on/off.

As for the actual Witcher senses, I think they are fine on their own. My issue is with the combination of Witchers senses AND quest markers. Like in the 35minute video you don't really need to look for Johnny' tracks since there is a giant "!" at his hut. That section would be much more interesting if you had to explore the Swamp using your Witcher senses to find and track the footprints of a small child to Johnny's hut -- in this instance I have no problem with the footprints being highlighted.

 

[TheDeathRun]

I think Skyrim has a slightly different case compared to TW3, mainly thanks to the perspective. In Skyrim, I ended up so annoyed with the HUD that I disabled everything except the compass - I didn't need the game to tell me onscreen to press A to pick up a skull, and I didn't need the game to tell me that I was looking at a skull either. This worked because close-up examination of an object (without opening the inventory) wasn't much of a problem. Also, you can look under tables, etc, without much difficulty due to the first-person perspective.

That wouldn't work in TW3, obviously. You've mentioned how to fix this there shouldn't be tiny rings for us to pick up and I agree. Tiny objects would be a real headache. Personally I think the current state of item interactivity is alright though. In the 35min demo, after Geralt slays some drowners, he walks over one of their bodies and a non-conspicuous "loot" button appears over the non-glowing drowner body. I say non-conspicuous because I recall someone asking if looting monsters was still in the game after the demo's release. As you can see here, the other drowners aren't highlighted or marked in any way to indicate that they've got loot on them.

View attachment 10730

Another instance of looting is when Geralt collects Johnny's bottle from the harpies' nest. Before he approaches the nest, it isn't highlighted or glowing. In fact, it's just smartly and realistically placed on the tip of the cliff, naturally guiding the player's eye towards it within the world and without the use of "gamey" markers.

View attachment 10733

What's interesting is what happens when Geralt is within looting distance. Aside from the usual loot prompt, the nest glows a faint blue complete with uh sparkles? Not really sparkles, but I can't think of another word. It's not obvious in a still picture but here:

View attachment 10734

I'm guessing that blue glow is there because the loot bag contains a quest item.

Unless there's been some big overhaul (which there's no evidence of), I'm alright with the loot system as it was in this demo. No constantly highlighted, glowing markers screaming at you that there's loot on-screen. Just a simple prompt (which I might end up disabling for immersion on my second playthrough).

As for Witcher senses being an on-rails experience, I have to agree. As of now it seems to be exceedingly linear, whereas I was hoping for an experience similar to the tracking of Cedric's footprints in TW2. I did read a preview where an investigation was described as "cluedo-esque" so there's hope, but I wouldn't put too much stock in that. We'll have to see how it plays out.

 

[1337Smithy]

Just if you want to see other examples (and showing it's still in on later builds): at the beginning of the hand-on gameplay vid, you can also see the 'loot' indicator pop up when Geralt passes a couple of sacks when exiting Kaer Gelen (and also on the 'ashes' of the wraiths). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgJUL3nN4iI#t=0m34s

You also see it again when he's in Blandare when he passes the same type of sack just before the quest board.

 

[TheDeathRun]

Just if you want to see other examples (and showing it's still in on later builds): at the beginning of the hand-on gameplay vid, you can also see the 'loot' indicator pop up when Geralt passes a couple of sacks when exiting Kaer Gelen (and also on the 'ashes' of the wraiths). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgJUL3nN4iI#t=0m34s

You also see it again when he's in Blandare when he passes the same type of sack just before the quest board.

That's a great spot, the main difference I'm seeing is that the "A" button prompt now hovers over the object itself instead of remaining on the bottom of the screen. Otherwise yep, still as it was previously.

 

[frivolousam]

What's interesting is what happens when Geralt is within looting distance. Aside from the usual loot prompt, the nest glows a faint blue complete with uh sparkles? Not really sparkles, but I can't think of another word. It's not obvious in a still picture but here:

That blue spark thing is whatever harpies stole from someone' brain or whatever, don't remember the exact material but should be diamond like.

 

[caruga]

Not had time to read the whole thread but I agree with the OP. Whether it's highlighting points of interest or pointing you the exact way to your destination, it means you fail to stop and smell the roses, so to speak.

 

[arkhenon]

You have some good points there @eliharel, I agree with most of them (only difference being the difference of player perspective in both games, as stated before). But I would actually love an option for disabling the markers and highlighting to some extent. Of course this will probably not be in the game itself, but like Skyrim, with the help of some good modders, I think this can easily be achieved And like you said, it would be cool to have that option. I mean, if I feel lazy, I would still look for highlights, but I would keep them closed for most of my playthrough as well. So, let's hopefully keep waiting for a mod?

 

[ONLY_ONCE]

I would like the options of both, I could not live without the other.
It makes sense to highlight stuff in witcher sense mode, I get that, but to highlight stuff outside of that mode would just suck because my eyes still have to see it.
That is where the On/Off options need to come into play. I still think levers and other world stuff that players can interact with, should be like that game LIMBO.
I can't fucking stand it when devs make shit stand out and look unnatural from the rest of the organic environment. It's just stupid, from glowing handels/doors to off colored/textures on breakable walls etc... Now I understand why they do that for people, but I still can't understand to this very day, as to why gamers like me still have to suffer looking at all that fake eyesore, highlighted out of place bullshit. It's real easy devs, just let us turn hints/highlighted stuff off, all of it, npc's,monsters,loot,quest items,herbs,button icons you name it.. and for gods sake may the interactive things in the world still blend in, when those options are all off.
TW3 needs to have the options to let us play like that, I have been a gamer since my youth and I have wanted the options to at least turn this stuff off for years now.
There was a time when games had real secrets to find, but like I said.. in todays huge games, I totally understand the need for (some) of it, and yes sometimes I might even play with the highlights on just to see what devs highlight and whatnot, but fuckin-A guys...please let me turn it off when I'm done.

 

[wichat]

In TW2 I used the medallion for sometimes to find items. Not everybody has a perfect vision or big screens, so if CDPR has added an optional hightlited option I'd be fine with it.

 

[ONLY_ONCE]

I think Skyrim has a slightly different case compared to TW3, mainly thanks to the perspective. In Skyrim, I ended up so annoyed with the HUD that I disabled everything except the compass - I didn't need the game to tell me onscreen to press A to pick up a skull, and I didn't need the game to tell me that I was looking at a skull either. This worked because close-up examination of an object (without opening the inventory) wasn't much of a problem. Also, you can look under tables, etc, without much difficulty due to the first-person perspective.

That wouldn't work in TW3, obviously. You've mentioned how to fix this there shouldn't be tiny rings for us to pick up and I agree. Tiny objects would be a real headache. Personally I think the current state of item interactivity is alright though. In the 35min demo, after Geralt slays some drowners, he walks over one of their bodies and a non-conspicuous "loot" button appears over the non-glowing drowner body. I say non-conspicuous because I recall someone asking if looting monsters was still in the game after the demo's release. As you can see here, the other drowners aren't highlighted or marked in any way to indicate that they've got loot on them.

View attachment 10730

Another instance of looting is when Geralt collects Johnny's bottle from the harpies' nest. Before he approaches the nest, it isn't highlighted or glowing. In fact, it's just smartly and realistically placed on the tip of the cliff, naturally guiding the player's eye towards it within the world and without the use of "gamey" markers.

View attachment 10733

What's interesting is what happens when Geralt is within looting distance. Aside from the usual loot prompt, the nest glows a faint blue complete with uh sparkles? Not really sparkles, but I can't think of another word. It's not obvious in a still picture but here:

View attachment 10734

I'm guessing that blue glow is there because the loot bag contains a quest item.

Unless there's been some big overhaul (which there's no evidence of), I'm alright with the loot system as it was in this demo. No constantly highlighted, glowing markers screaming at you that there's loot on-screen. Just a simple prompt (which I might end up disabling for immersion on my second playthrough).

As for Witcher senses being an on-rails experience, I have to agree. As of now it seems to be exceedingly linear, whereas I was hoping for an experience similar to the tracking of Cedric's footprints in TW2. I did read a preview where an investigation was described as "cluedo-esque" so there's hope, but I wouldn't put too much stock in that. We'll have to see how it plays out.

Some good points about the loot system, I don't mind it as is as well and like you said for the most part just let us disable the button icon prompts then we're golden. That would be perfect, anyways... Johnny's voice might glow like that because it's a quest item or bound by magic, in that case it makes sense in the latter.

---------- Updated at 05:47 PM ----------

In TW2 I used the medallion for sometimes to find items. Not everybody has a perfect vision or big screens, so if CDPR has added an optional hightlited option I'd be fine with it.

I'm fine with it too, but it would be really awesome to give players the freedom to turn them off too

 

[username_2091629]

I'm the type of player who cannot stand UI's, giant hand-holding HuD's, and general gameplay elements that overlay the scenery in an unnatural way. The article mentioned in the OP was an affirmation of something I've felt for years now; video game devs need to adopt a mantra used in prose writing; show, don't tell. Use the environment to guide your players, not big, obtrusive arrows that appear out of nowhere and magically point to the goal line. Those techniques are a relic of a time when image fidelity was so poor that most players couldn't tell what the polygon in front of them was supposed to represent, so it was necessary to point to it with an arrow. We don't need that anymore. Devs create these beautifully immersive worlds and then crap all over them with a terrible UI - I get the need for some people, but for crying out loud give us a toggle option.