Graphic downgrade

[Alastre]

If the retail game looks as good as it did in the 35 min demo released in the summer I will be happy with the final product.

There's no reason to think it won't be! General discussion is about difference between very first trailers and last one...of course the game it's still a GREAT game! It's just I was really hoping to have that kind of graphic...

---------- Updated at 02:58 PM ----------

It's exactly this. In order to keep the VGX build, they would need to create 2 completely different versions of the game, 1 for consoles and one for PCs, and this would propably drive CDPR bankrupt. .

Probably you are right, but where's the problem to CDPR to admit this? I don't think anybody could blame them for this...it would be much better than silence or "we are saving ultra settings to blow you away" don't you think so??

 

[palladin123.691]

Obviously if a graphic change needed to be made for performance reasons on the PC, that's cool, I'd prefer the bigger, better game, and use mods and 5 year future hardware to really crank the fidelity. But if fidelity changes come and nobody sits down to explain what's happened or why, and the best developer response to date has been 'We won't show 'Ultra' graphics until after the game is fully released', then that's an understandable reason for people to start asking questions on their own and trying to get the answers to make informed buying decisions about a product that may or may not provide the atmosphere/fidelity/etc that originally sold them on the game.

One of the best replies I've seen regarding this entire topic so far. There's a clear visual difference between the earlier screenshots and the new trailers, particularly in shading and lighting. Now if those changes were made for performance reasons, most of us would understand it - its part of optimization. Most of us would also understand it if the changes were made to accommodate one engine across 3 platforms and multiple performance parameters. But a lack of clear answers and this odd reluctance to show ultra graphics is going raise questions among potential customers. If ultra quality in the released game does not compare well to expectations, gamers are going to be very skeptical when the first CPK2077 screenshots show up.

 

[Jasheon]

There's no reason to think it won't be! General discussion is about difference between very first trailers and last one...of course the game it's still a GREAT game! It's just I was really hoping to have that kind of graphic...

---------- Updated at 02:58 PM ----------



Probably you are right, but where's the problem to CDPR to admit this? I don't think anybody could blame them for this...it would be much better than silence or "we are saving ultra settings to blow you away" don't you think so??

Yah they should honestly come out and explain that's all we are looking for.

 

[web-head91]

I'm not certain where all of the ad hominem and 'graphics don't matter' comes from.

I can understand defending CDPR, against attacks, but this isn't an attack against CDPR. It's a question.

In earlier footage, there are sharpening filters (what do you think anti-aliasing and anisotropic filtering are?), advanced post-processing effects, dynamic lighting, a few higher texture models, and drastically different vegetation density and variety than exist in most of the later footage.

In some cases, like the dynamic lighting, we've seen some new types being utilized in recent gameplay footage. But in many cases, those effects have been reduced or removed entirely, leaving a greyer, flatter looking game in it's place.

That isn't to say they couldn't be re-enabled, or they weren't cut for the performance cost of trying to do all that in an area bigger than the size of a farm. But the difference exists.

Whether you subjectively care about that is more or less irrelevant. The differences exist, and what everyone who /does/ care seems to be asking is 'Why'. Not, please make your game the build from 2 years ago. Not I can't believe you couldn't deliver on all those amazing graphics you promised. Just an explanation of what changes have been made, where they've been made, and whether not there is the hope of re-capturing some of the polish seen in the engine-rendered footage the was used to sell the game to potential customers in the first place.


Instead of that any sort of response, it's personal attack after 'how dare you care about graphics' after 'you haven't even seen the end product yet' after 'who posts about graphics in a thread about graphics' after 'what graphics changes, I don't even see any graphics changes'.

It's just silly. Obviously if a graphic change needed to be made for performance reasons on the PC, that's cool, I'd prefer the bigger, better game, and use mods and 5 year future hardware to really crank the fidelity. But if fidelity changes come and nobody sits down to explain what's happened or why, and the best developer response to date has been 'We won't show 'Ultra' graphics until after the game is fully released', then that's an understandable reason for people to start asking questions on their own and trying to get the answers to make informed buying decisions about a product that may or may not provide the atmosphere/fidelity/etc that originally sold them on the game.

That isn't attacking your favorite game company, that's due diligence. And everyone should be working together to try and piece together the best information possible instead of letting things devolve into nearly the same state that exists in the legendary (and even more ludicrous) Microsoft vs. Sony comment flamewars.

Agreed. I’d like to add something more if you will.
I personally am a hardcore RPG gamer on PC and like nothing more but challenging combat, immersive worlds and complex game mechanics. In short, for me it's all about the GAMEPLAY.
However one could say, how is gameplay related to the whole "downgrade" business?
This is an observation I made and i am in no way being rude or impolite or trying to start a so called "flame war". well, the graphics themselves varied a lot and I assume it is related to the different builds they've been trying, and perhaps find the right settings that could be run by a medium pc and consoles at the same time which is to be expected.
so in the end, the consoles may be the cause of the whole thing after all. what worries however, from a GAMEPLAY perspective, is that there are aspects of dumbing down the game: markers and exclamation marks over the heads of potential NPC quest givers, a not so detailed quest description, basic dialogue options and not as detailed as the first witcher game or other RPGs (the gothic series, fallout NV which had excellent dialogue system in my opinion), health regeneration, a “console-ish” UI…etc
in other words, these are signs that gameplay got tweaked for the console crowd, if not heavily tweaked, which is to be understandable since most of this generation’s console owners are not really hardcore gamers like in the days of the ps2 and even before. So we may be dealing with a watered down role-playing aspect and tweaked graphics to match the consoles hardware as well as their users.
As I said, this is nothing more than a mere opinion, and I’m not accusing CDPR of anything, just pointing out simple observations and possibilities. In the end, the only way we can know for sure is to play the game on release and see for ourselves :hmm:

 

[Alastre]

Agreed. I’d like to add something more if you will.
I personally am a hardcore RPG gamer on PC and like nothing more but challenging combat, immersive worlds and complex game mechanics. In short, for me it's all about the GAMEPLAY.
However one could say, how is gameplay related to the whole "downgrade" business?
This is an observation I made and i am in no way being rude or impolite or trying to start a so called "flame war". well, the graphics themselves varied a lot and I assume it is related to the different builds they've been trying, and perhaps find the right settings that could be run by a medium pc and consoles at the same time which is to be expected.
so in the end, the consoles may be the cause of the whole thing after all. what worries however, from a GAMEPLAY perspective, is that there are aspects of dumbing down the game: markers and exclamation marks over the heads of potential NPC quest givers, a not so detailed quest description, basic dialogue options and not as detailed as the first witcher game or other RPGs (the gothic series, fallout NV which had excellent dialogue system in my opinion), health regeneration, a “console-ish” UI…etc
in other words, these are signs that gameplay got tweaked for the console crowd, if not heavily tweaked, which is to be understandable since most of this generation’s console owners are not really hardcore gamers like in the days of the ps2 and even before. So we may be dealing with a watered down role-playing aspect as well as tweaked graphics to match the consoles hardware as well as their users.
As I said, this is nothing more than a mere opinion, and I’m not accusing CDPR of anything, just pointing out simple observations and possibilities. In the end, the only way we can know for sure is to play the game on release and see for ourselves :hmm:

If I'm not wrong the whole stuff like question marks etc are fully customizable...but yes I'd like the most "spartan" hud and harder challanges...

 

[wichat]

I have not console... why this war between PC's and consoles?

From Interviews and Articles - 2015

It has been previously noted, that the PS4 version of The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, suffers from a slight case of frame rate fluctuations and pop in issues. Michał Krzemiński, Senior Art Producer, assured that all of these issues will be ironed out in the final game.

“We’re still in the optimization phase, so we’ll definitely iron these small things out,” Michał said

He believes that both console versions look solid in terms of framerate, being targeted to run at 30 frames per second. The PS4 version will run at 1080p and the Xbox One at 900p, with a possible update to improve the resolution for the latter.
Regarding the PC version of The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, it has to be noted that the recommended requirements, would run the game at 30 frames per second. Michael went on to state that for a 60 fps experience, players would require a high end PC.

“They need to have a pretty high-end PC, but I won’t give you the details now, as we’re still optimizing the game and anything can change. Having said that, the game won’t kill your PC if you have a lower end machine — we want all gamers to have fun, not only the ones with the most beefy specs.”

http://wccftech.com/witcher-3-wild-hunt-highend-pc-required-60fps-cd-projekt-red-ironing-ps4-issues/

 

[web-head91]

If I'm not wrong the whole stuff like question marks etc are fully customizable...but yes I'd like the most "spartan" hud and harder challanges...

i did hear that the interface was fully customizeable, but i didn't think it would include the "mmo-ish" exclamation marks.

 

[TouPoutsou]

---------- Updated at 02:58 PM ----------



Probably you are right, but where's the problem to CDPR to admit this? I don't think anybody could blame them for this...it would be much better than silence or "we are saving ultra settings to blow you away" don't you think so??

No, not really. We are talking about an early alpha build, in the deep past. There is no reason to inflict a PR suicide over it.

 

[gregski]

Just a reminder - we are talking about a potential graphical "downgrade" here. Not about UI and certainly not about platform vs. platform accusations.

So please continue on topic.

 

[archaven.84]

This is very obvious downgrade in my opinion:
Before:
http://i.nextmedia.com.au/News/witcher.jpg
After:
http://imgur.com/yXV8G8X.jpg

 

[selethen]

@up
It is obvious. It's another time of the day, but lightning was miles ahead earlier - more realistic, natural.

 

[archaven.84]

@up
It is obvious. It's another time of the day, but lightning was miles ahead earlier - more realistic, natural.

I don't think it's lighting at all. People can see the picture comparison and judge for themselves. It's either serious downgrade of false advertising to begin with. The SoD trailers could be just CG.

 

[wichat]

It never can be a false advertising when the product itself is not finished nor released.

One makes a false advertisment when this one is already existing in its final state in order to be compared at the same time.

 

[EliHarel]

I do know this is the official forum, as the North American Community Manager was recently kind enough to illustrate and moderators will routinely show. But regular members, please don't take it upon you to defend CD Projekt above and beyond the call of duty. Look, criticizing some graphic aspect isn't necessarily the same as criticizing the game as a whole, which in turn isn't necessarily the same as criticizing CD Projekt RED altogether. Being keen on graphics doesn't necessarily mean one deems them the only possible virtue a game can have, not even its most important virtue. Yet a variation on these strawman arguments will keep creeping back into the discussion. The least you could do is realize it hasn't worked out.

I'm not certain where all of the ad hominem and 'graphics don't matter' comes from.

I can understand defending CDPR, against attacks, but this isn't an attack against CDPR. It's a question.
[...]
Whether you subjectively care about that is more or less irrelevant. The differences exist, and what everyone who /does/ care seems to be asking is 'Why'. Not, please make your game the build from 2 years ago. Not I can't believe you couldn't deliver on all those amazing graphics you promised. Just an explanation of what changes have been made, where they've been made, and whether not there is the hope of re-capturing some of the polish seen in the engine-rendered footage the was used to sell the game to potential customers in the first place.

Instead of that any sort of response, it's personal attack after 'how dare you care about graphics' after 'you haven't even seen the end product yet' after 'who posts about graphics in a thread about graphics' after 'what graphics changes, I don't even see any graphics changes'.
[...]
That isn't attacking your favorite game company, that's due diligence. And everyone should be working together to try and piece together the best information possible instead of letting things devolve into nearly the same state that exists in the legendary (and even more ludicrous) Microsoft vs. Sony comment flamewars.

I agree with many points the two of you have raised, but I think you're pulling some of those defensive posts out of context. The way you describe it, the downgrade topic has been most of the time a calm, reasonable and interesting discussion. I know that you know this isn't the case, Agent Bleu, because you followed the previous one, at least to some degree. You even yourself wrote that the "downgrade side" keeps shooting itself in the feet due to the way it went about the matter (which I agree with). As for Vixraine, I can't recall if you participated in the previous thread. If you followed it, you should know that this civil fan you're painting who calmly asks CDPR questions is in the very small minority among the frequent posters, here as well as the former thread.

I think that the reason many active members of this board are very wary of the downgrade discussion isn't because they're afraid of criticism of the game and of CDPR, it's because this topic stands out negatively in how it attracts people whose prime activity surrounds the downgrade issue, and who don't go about it in a civil manner as the two of you, but make it into some kind of furious crusade against CDPR and TW3. Only to disappear once the topic dies. There's nothing wrong about that per se - people are allowed to post about whatever topic they feel like. But there's at least something that feels suspicious about this specific issue and how it handles, because it takes the boards to a very negative and toxic place. Even in this thread, which isn't as emotional as the previous one so far, your posts, which can't be understood as defensive of CDPR, are the minority that stand out among many other posts that seem just eager to flamebait.

I just felt it was important to say how these ultra defensive posts don't exist in a vacuum. Again, I agree with much of what you say. People are allowed to care about graphics, entering a graphics thread to comment against graphics doesn't help (unless the thread makes it out to be the sole category to judge a game by), etc. I also share your curiosity in hearing CDPR address this in a more detailed way. Whether good or bad, there are noticeable differences between the 2013 footage and everything after. It doesn't necessarily mean a downgrade, but CDPR's attempt of disarming this didn't work. They reassured that there's no downgrade, but there are still many people left wondering what are the differences they're seeing, if not that.

The counter-argument is that a company can't allow itself to address every outcry of the fans (?). Maybe. I agree with that in general, but I'm no longer sure that this matter is just one of many. To me it seems to garner the most attention. I haven't conducted a study so I can't really say, but I keep seeing the downgrade talk popping up across different boards. It makes me a bit sad to see it hounding them in the way that it does. Maybe it's just the internet bubble (probably is - I don't think the expected millions of purchasers follow the development cycle this closely, or even care), maybe it's a loud minority, but such is my impression at this point. To me it seems TW3 has taken a noticeable punch in the excitement surrounding it because this downgrade thing keeps plaguing its marketing.

And since this is a sensitive issue, I'll add another clarification: while I'm curious about hearing them address this in detail, I'm not losing sleep over it and I'm curious about many other matters, too. I'm not bothered by it and I won't march to their headquarters at the head of a mob with flaming torches and pitchforks even if they just flat out say that they downgraded it for shits and giggles. I might be bummed a bit, but that's it. Life will go on, I'll probably be more cautious of the first CP77 material CDPR releases, but I'll play the hell out of TW3 and CP77 regardless. At this point I don't think they're lying about not downgrading it, but I think that they're not communicating well enough why the changes they performed aren't a downgrade, but something else, when people see a visual difference.

 

[Rahx.482]

While this is nowhere near the downgrade/false advertising of oh say WD, gotta admit, CDPR and many other Devs have fallen prey to their own hype machine.
Putting up full CG cutscene and stating how its rendered real time in engine will only make most people think its actual comparable gameplay.
Showing off in game pictures that turn out to be 'engine rendered CG snapshots' only adds to the fire.
But at least they never once gave us a 'live' gameplay footage with the graphics from TSOD or *sniff* Hunting monsters *sniff*, thankfully those were always just cutscene...

 

[xDeithwenx]

one of recent gameplay 15 minutes one

one of the first screens from witcher 3 (2 years old probably) scene is from debut trailer

This is what upsets/disappoints me the most. The original footage I saw of this game was *beautiful*; I fell in love with it. However, now we have a different-looking game altogether. Not necessarily bad...I like it...but it's just not what I was expecting.

I believe the change will have been due to varying factors, including performance, console parity etc, but it still doesn't take away the fact that would could have been, won't be.

It never can be a false advertising when the product itself is not finished nor released.

With respect, people keep throwing around the statement that's in not finished/released, they're still working on it etc.

It's waaaaaay past that point to make the sort of significant changes people *may* request, graphically or otherwise.

The game was due to be released last month. It was already "ready" for release. They delayed it for optimization/bug-hunting, nothing more. The game is feature complete and the graphics will be as they are shown today.

it's because this topic stands out negatively in how it attracts people whose prime activity surrounds the downgrade issue, and who don't go about it in a civil manner as the two of you, but make it into some kind of furious crusade against CDPR and TW3. Only to disappear once the topic dies.

I can only speak for myself, but the only reason why I don't post on here regularly despite loving The Witcher is because I have no interest in getting involved in the community. Been there, done all that; too many problems for me to be interested in getting involved in discussions. I'm also not of the belief, unlike some here, that what is said on here *may* have an impact on the game's direction. It won't, at 'least not in this stage of development.

The only reason I come here, admittedly, is because of the graphics. I will respond to devs, I will respond to people making excellent points or spouting stupid crap, but ultimately it's the graphics I take issue with; and I've said it before and I'll say it again...I love the way the game is turning out. I do. I found out yesterday you can customize the HUD to get rid of "hand-holding" elements, and that's made me happy. HOWEVER, I fell in love with a different aesthetically pleasing game, and what I see now screams of "downgrading", for want of a better word, to suit consoles. That isn't a jab at consoles either, they're great, but they are the lowest common denominator that CDPR have to cater for in order to make a return on their time/finance; it's just that they're so limiting that their original vision cannot be realized.

 

[EliHarel]

I can only speak for myself, but the only reason why I don't post on here regularly despite loving The Witcher is because I have no interest in getting involved in the community. Been there, done all that; too many problems for me to be interested in getting involved in discussions. I'm also not of the belief, unlike some here, that what is said on here *may* have an impact on the game's direction. It won't, at 'least not in this stage of development.

The only reason I come here, admittedly, is because of the graphics. I will respond to devs, I will respond to people making excellent points or spouting stupid crap, but ultimately it's the graphics I take issue with; and I've said it before and I'll say it again...I love the way the game is turning out. I do. I found out yesterday you can customize the HUD to get rid of "hand-holding" elements, and that's made me happy. HOWEVER, I fell in love with a different aesthetically pleasing game, and what I see now screams of "downgrading", for want of a better word, to suit consoles. That isn't a jab at consoles either, they're great, but they are the lowest common denominator that CDPR have to cater for in order to make a return on their time/finance; it's just that they're so limiting that their original vision cannot be realized.

Fine by me. I don't mean to come off as a person who wags his fingers at people who participate only in specific topics. Who the hell am I, anyway? I hope I managed to push that point through in my previous post - there's nothing wrong with people popping in just to discuss alchemy, or witcher senses, or side quests, or sex, or graphics. I just shared my thought of the reason the graphics discussion is viewed so suspiciously: because it tends to attract much more temporary users than other threads, but more importantly, users who go about it in a very aggressive and hostile manner. Mind you, I don't like how the no-downgrade side can be just as obnoxious. It's a shame. I find this topic interesting, and, like I said, I would like to hear some more insight about it.

As for giving up on their vision - too many variables we don't know. What if, even as a PC exclusive without needing to take console restrictions under consideration, it couldn't have reached the quality of a multi-platform game because they wouldn't have enjoyed Microsoft's support? It's possible. I don't know if that's the case, and I won't hurry to state that it's definitely this or that reason unless some data about this is released. I don't accept this premise that a PC exclusive game is necessarily better than a multi-platform or even a console exclusive one, due to practical, monetary reasons. In a world where a company has unlimited funds, maybe. But that's pointless to discuss. Under real-world limitations, maybe the only way for CDPR to fulfill their vision was a multi-platform game that would have netted them some funds from other companies, funds they couldn't have raised on their own?

 

[Scheuk]

It never can be a false advertising when the product itself is not finished nor released.

One makes a false advertisment when this one is already existing in its final state in order to be compared at the same time.

They are taking preorders based on that advertising.

 

[XSon]

I can't get the point of talk about downgrade, when we still haven't the game on our hands. It's stupid to compare two images without even know on which presets are taken.
When i'll have the game i'll talk about downgrade, if there will be one, of course.

 

[Giovanni1983]

Just to make this clear.
I understand what people are complaining about, there are stuff that could be improved as i've said before. I personally do not like the fact that some textures don't look as good as i would like, like the cliff before the wyvern fight or the fact that it seems like neither the horse nor Geralt leave dust/snow clouds while they walk, even though that effect can be seen in the world around Geralt.
The thing is, you could accuse CDPR of false advertising if they made you buy the game, based on the SoD and VGX trailer alone, without having any idea how the game looks when you play it.
You have 3-4 extensive gameplay videos with gameplay so you can see if you like it and decide wether you want to buy it or not. Despite that, some people choose to believe that the first build had the quality of the trailer and they spent the last 2 years downgrading the game, which is absurd. They obviously had to change some assets for performance but they sure didn't sell anyone the game based on a false promotion of the game. You know how it looks.

Noone will have anything to say to anyone who chooses not to buy the game but i am personally i am getting a bit disappointed with these boards and this blind crusade against CDPR.
I really love the witcher world so i will play the game and enjoy it.
I also like CDPR and i support them but i don't follow them blindly and i will be there to judge them when i get my hands on the game and there are things that don't look as good as they should but not before then. This has gone too far.