Female sex, game devs, social justice advocates and the rift in gaming community.

[wisielec]

Female sex, game devs, social justice advocates and the rift in gaming community.

Hi there forumites!
I was supposed to post this on polish forums but I thought I'd do it here - sheer range of different cultural perspectives might be a tad better in this case

I came across a really good blog posts (imo) about female representation in video games
There are points that got me thinking, and I agree it does make a pattern - so called defenders of minorities or social justice seekers are just another form of oppression - this is simply another way of dictating how females should(not) be treated. Hypocrisy much? Do they even listen to the side which they defend? Or is it just their ego speaking?
Is it true that game devs are constantly reminded and restricted by the artificial standards made by the Vocal Defenders? Is this a problem with less diversity among the games and characters to tailor to the new status quo? I wonder.
This ties to the portrayal of women in games.

So whats your opinion?

Will the Witcher struggle with "controversy" over sexism, misogyny, lack of fresh water in Sahara and case of little Joe who at one time had to wipe his ass with a leaf in a city park?

 

[dragonbird]

OK, so this thread is likely to be a magnet for certain types of responses, in order to make sure that it stays open, please respect the forum rules.
That means no personal attacks.
Which means avoiding criticism of men or women outside these forums for anything other than what they say on this topic. Ad-hominem attacks based on ANYONE'S physical appearance or personal morality is an absolute no-no.
And be very careful about generalisations, unless you can provide documented proof to the moderators that you have unlimited access to the hive mind of any race, gender or cultural group.
And it'll probably include a few other ground rules that I haven't thought of yet but one of us may come back and add later.

 

[dragonbird]

Oh, interesting articles, by the way. I only skimmed, but I think I agreed with a lot of her views.

 

[wisielec]

@Dragonbird with pre-emptive strike wins the day

 

[GingerEffect]

Why can't everyone just agree that we should aim for more varied characters (note the lack of a gender specific there). That's not pandering and it's also not abusing. It's just good sense.

 

[kanonite]

I am fine with more diversity, as long as its not preachy or added simply to fill a quota.

 

[octavian123]

I am fine with more diversity, as long as its not preachy or added simply to fill a quota.

That new Overwatch female character is a perfect example of pandering.

 

[wichat]

Not only about different size of sexual body parts but also in different age

Seriously, to me is not more a matter of image or design than the role given to the female characters. I don't like maled females. I don't like sexy weaker companion, I like people, man or woman, dealing with thier emotions, doubts and believings, But tha's is me and my culture and the envvironment were I grew up.

Videogames are born among a culture coming from Holliwood patterns, and specially strong commercial one. Hopefully, little indies put some new ideas in their games and our hands and that's is growing and spreading slowly a more realistic view of men and women fighting for they future.

Oh, well... I'm not explaining what a mean clearly. Sorry.

 

[KingHochmeister]

Will the Witcher struggle with "controversy" over sexism, misogyny, lack of fresh water in Sahara and case of little Joe who at one time had to wipe his ass with a leaf in a city park?

It already does.


As for diversity, I believe more diversity should be in games, but not pandered diversity, be honest in your diversity and make it good, make good characters and stories, that is what matters, not the diversity itself.

 

[PrincessCiri]

Why can't everyone just agree that we should aim for more varied characters (note the lack of a gender specific there). That's not pandering and it's also not abusing. It's just good sense.

Well said. I think games with writers that are willing to write a varied cast are likely to be better writers, compared to those who only write a specific type of character. So it's in the gaming community's best interests to encourage variety.

 

[Phinnway]

I am fine with more diversity, as long as its not preachy or added simply to fill a quota.

My thoughts exactly.


Hmm... Something happened recently that might be relevant to the discussion here.

Last Friday Paradox Interactive announced they're giving away a free DLC for their renaissance themed, historical grand-strategy game Europe Universalis IV. EU4 covers the time period between the 15th and 19th centuries. The DLC adds

• 100 new events based on important women in history."
• A rare chance for female royal advisers appearing in your court."
• Occasional events that will fire when you're playing as a feudal monarchy and have a female heir."

So what do people think? Appropriate use of encouraging diversity in gaming? Or forcing an agenda on the players? If it affects your opinion at all, the DLC was added in celebration of international women's day and it's optional.

 

[PrincessCiri]

Hmm... Something happened recently that might be relevant to the discussion here.

Last Friday Paradox Interactive announced they're giving away a free DLC for their renaissance themed, historical grand-strategy game Europe Universalis IV. EU4 covers the time period between the 15th and 19th centuries. The DLC adds

• 100 new events based on important women in history."
• A rare chance for female royal advisers appearing in your court."
• Occasional events that will fire when you're playing as a feudal monarchy and have a female heir."

So what do people think? Appropriate use of encouraging diversity in gaming? Or forcing an agenda on the players? If it affects your opinion at all, the DLC was added in celebration of international women's day and it's optional.

I think it's interesting and I'm glad they're doing it. Women have contributed a lot to our world history and yet it is sadly often the case that their male colleagues were given credit, so acknowledging these women's achievements is something important, I feel.

And not to mention, it's historically accurate. Two of Great Britain's most successful eras were under the rule of a female monarch, so it would be weird for them to ignore that female heirs did come about, (even if Henry 8th tried his hardest to not let his daughters inherit his throne) and ignore how Queen Elizabeth I and Queen Victoria ruled Britain.

 

[Phinnway]

Seriously, to me is not more a matter of image or design than the role given to the female characters. I don't like maled females. I don't like sexy weaker companion, I like people, man or woman, dealing with thier emotions, doubts and believings, But tha's is me and my culture and the envvironment were I grew up.

Videogames are born among a culture coming from Holliwood patterns, and specially strong commercial one. Hopefully, little indies put some new ideas in their games and our hands and that's is growing and spreading slowly a more realistic view of men and women fighting for they future.

Oh, well... I'm not explaining what a mean clearly. Sorry.

No. I think what you said made a lot of sense. You touched upon a great point. It doesn't matter whether a protagonist is male or female. What we really want is a character who is dealing with their emotions, doubts, and uncertainties in a believable and human way.

It really touched upon a subject my brother complains about a lot. Both men and women are portrayed falsely in video-games. Men are portrayed as overly-assertive, gruff, and experienced individuals (which real men are not, at least not most of the time.) Women are portrayed as over-sexualized... and.... other things (I honestly can't think of anything else off the top of my head, probably because I'm not female.) I expect you're right that this comes from modeling video-games after the Hollywood scene.

EDIT: It's probably also worth pointing out that RPGs are one of the few genres where we get a mixture of strong, assertive male and female characters, and a mix of weak and vulnerable male and female characters oftentimes within the same game.

 

[Garrison72]

Why can't everyone just agree that we should aim for more varied characters (note the lack of a gender specific there). That's not pandering and it's also not abusing. It's just good sense.

You guys got no credit for the likes of Phillipa, Dethmold, Saskia or Ves, all non traditional characters who are brimming with self agency and empowerment. Not a word about them from the people crying for diversity. And it would seem, unless you make an effort to deliberately pander, you won't get any credit for branching out. So by all means, please do exactly what you want and ignore any pressure to be relevant or socially conscious.

 

[wichat]

History facts has nothing to do with money business. I mean, look at any toy side or advise, o shop. Children are already forced to choice a path or role. Toys for girls (dolls and kitchens) are placed in pink environiments. Toys (sport and war) for boys in blue ones. Year 2015, XXI century.. How can a male teenager accept as usual to play a female character? or how a female teenager would be appeal to play fighting games? Who is forcing the agenda of who?
Now, obviuosly something change (life?)when theses people reach theri 25-20 age and going on playing.

Don't get me wrong. My mind and ideas are not so limited as my words and language barrier rpisse me off a little. English language save you! If that would be in Spanish I wouyld able to write more than 3 pages

---------- Updated at 03:57 PM ----------

Must to add that TW series allow me to be really immersed in the story, I can feel Geralt as a man, a real man, and I can feel a great empathy with him. CDPR writers have give at each character an awesome respect and love for their decided differences.

 

[dragonbird]

My thoughts exactly.


Hmm... Something happened recently that might be relevant to the discussion here.

Last Friday Paradox Interactive announced they're giving away a free DLC for their renaissance themed, historical grand-strategy game Europe Universalis IV. EU4 covers the time period between the 15th and 19th centuries. The DLC adds

• 100 new events based on important women in history."
• A rare chance for female royal advisers appearing in your court."
• Occasional events that will fire when you're playing as a feudal monarchy and have a female heir."

So what do people think? Appropriate use of encouraging diversity in gaming? Or forcing an agenda on the players? If it affects your opinion at all, the DLC was added in celebration of international women's day and it's optional.

OK, and no, not forcing an agenda any more than any other similar DLCs in that type of game. But that's on the assumption that the "important women in history" really were. Civ V had a slight problem with that aspect where they were clearly trying to balance the number of male to female rulers, but ended up introducing female characters who really weren't a good choice for the civilisation concerned. That DID feel forced.

 

[Jobbert.907]

That new Overwatch female character is a perfect example of pandering.

I don't really follow Overwatch, but I assume you're talking about Zarya? Because I don't see anything wrong with having female characters with different body types.

 

[Phinnway]

@Dragonbird Don't get me started on Civ V. I mean... Dido for Carthage? Are you F!@#ing kidding me? Can her historical existence even be substantiated? As far as I am aware she is only known for her role in the Aeneid, a fictional poem. And all she does in that poem is fall madly in love with Aeneas and commit suicide when he leaves her. Hardly the strong, assertive woman the social-activists are campaigning for.

 

[dragonbird]

@Dragonbird Don't get me started on Civ V. I mean... Dido for Carthage? Are you F!@#ing kidding me? Can her historical existence even be substantiated? As far as I am aware she is only known for her role in the Aeneid, a fictional poem. And all she does in that poem is fall madly in love with Aeneas and commit suicide when he leaves her. Hardly the strong, assertive woman the social-activists are campaigning for.

Yup.
It should be easier for Paradox, as their games don't focus on "one person in a civilisation who is a Supreme Leader", so there's more to pick from. And as there WERE plenty of women in influential roles in history, it's perfectly possible that they've done OK on this.

 

[kanonite]

It already does.


As for diversity, I believe more diversity should be in games, but not pandered diversity, be honest in your diversity and make it good, make good characters and stories, that is what matters, not the diversity itself.

Exactly what you said, is exactly what I think. Do diversity, but dont get preachy about it or worry about being called rascist/sexist.