Currency

[Tolke]

Currency

This is something that have been bothering me since the beggining of the game. So please, some developer o knowledge one can enlighten me, i would appreciate.

How does the currency works in the world of "The Witcher" series? For example, how much money would be 300 crowns / orens?

To have a clear view of the whole picture, let's explain this axioms:
- How much money would gain a farming family in a year ?
- How much money would gain a medium class family (bourgeois) in Novigrad in a year ?
- How much money would gain a rich family in a year ?
- How much money would gain a King in a year ?

To anser this question, let's say that there is no war, that there is a relative peace (some monster attacks, and such).

All this thread is because I want to know if a reward of 300 crowns to killing a Leshen (or whatever hard monster) is enough or not. Because with 300 crowns you cannot buy a good weapon (or even the components to create a good one)

Hope someone can help me.

Thanks

 

[OptoNick]

There are not much details about economy in lore, but look here (Time of Contempt):

A mangonel costs five hundred florins, a trebuchet two hundred, an onager at least a hundred and fifty, the simplest ballista eighty. A trained crew requires nine and a half florins of monthly pay. The column heading for Vengerberg, including horses, oxen and minor tackle, is worth at least three hundred marks. Sixty florins can be struck from a mark of pure ore weighing half a pound. The annual yield of a mine is five or six thousand marks . . .

1 florin costs something near 3 crowns in TW3, though I don't remember if that rate was explicitly described somewhere. So, here's the basis for rough calculations

P.S. there are more references for prices on raw materials in Novigrad in 'Eternal Fire' short story, but that was more than 10 years ago before wars with Blacks

P.P.S.: Ok, I've remembered few more things which are closer to topic. Several years ago, between first and second war:

Spoiler

‘It was like this,’ he began quickly, still trotting alongside the wagon. ‘That witcher comes up to the officer. He says his name’s Geralt. The officer says it’s all the same to him, and it’d be better if he made a start. Shows him where the monster is. The witcher moves closer and looks on. The monster’s about five furlongs or more away, but he just glances at it and says at once it’s an uncommon great manticore and he’ll kill it if they give him two hundred crowns.

‘Two hundred crowns?’ choked the other old man. ‘Had he gone cuckoo?’


‘The officer says the same, only his words were riper. So the witcher says that’s how much it will cost and it’s all the same to him; the monster can stay on the road till Judgement Day. The officer says he won’t pay that much and he’ll wait till the beast flies off by itself. The witcher says it won’t because it’s hungry and pissed off. And if it flies off, it’ll be back soon because that’s its hunting terri–terri– territor—’

He lay motionless for a long while, recalling the dream. Then he rose. He drew a pouch from beneath his pillow and quickly counted out some ten-crown coins. One hundred and fifty for yesterday’s manticore. Fifty for the fogler he had been commissioned to kill by the headman of a village near Carreras. And fifty for the werewolf some settlers from Burdorff had driven out of hiding for him.

 

[zorba1138]

Ancient currency doesn't scale as you think, if you look at Roman currency which is one of the 1st currencies to have both intrinsic and non-intrinsic value then you'll see the picture.

Roman currency used to be minted in copper, bronze, silver and gold the precious metal coins were valued around 1.5-2 times their gross weight while the non-precious metal coins were more of a FIAT type currency with a fixed exchange rate.

For example 1 silver denarius (20-30$ today) which was about the daily salary for a Roman Legionnaire from legion in a good standing was more than a farmer might see in their a year, if this was in some backwater province than in their life time.

And legionaries which were not promoted to officer or assumed public office/commission were just as unlikely to see a gold denarius as for some backwater farmer to be paid in silver.

No one wanted to give people "money" that would give them agency, you give a framer gold that he can smelt and spend somewhere else you lose your control over them and so copper/bronze coins were used for day to day activities such as bartering and buying daily essentials in the big cities.

In the country side coin usage was much rarer most people just traded in stock or man hours, 2 sacks of grain for 150 hours on your farmstead and 15 hens for a goat and so on.

If you want a simpler way to look at it, then copper buys you a loaf of bread, silver buys you property and gold buys you favors.

But if you think that much thought went into the currency in this game then forget about it, in real life 300 gold crowns is more money than all the peasants in a place like velen will account for over 10 millennia.

The system engineer behind the currency had a task to ensure that you can enough currency for game progression at the pace they wanted you to take while preserving the perceived value of the currency (which they kinda failed at, everyone is swimming in gold but we all die penniless according to Dandelion).

 

[vahouth]

To my understanding, Orens are used in Temeria, Crowns in Redania and Florens in Nilfgaard. I have no idea what they have for currency in Skellige.
What I don't understand though is why we use Crowns in occupied Temeria instead of Orens or Florens and why Vivaldi's bank is used only for the conversion of random other currency to Crowns, and not the other way around? If I'm planning to visit Velen for example, I should be able to change some or all of my Crowns to whatever currency they use in Velen.
Maybe this is too much, but honestly I find it way more immersive than what we have now.

 

[OptoNick]

What I don't understand though is why we use Crowns in occupied Temeria instead of Orens or Florens and why Vivaldi's bank is used only for the conversion of random other currency to Crowns, and not the other way around? If I'm planning to visit Velen for example, I should be able to change some or all of my Crowns to whatever currency they use in Velen.

I'm more interested in opposite question: why orens are still relevant with exchange rate 1:1 with crowns? There's actually no Temeria anymore, treasury and forex reserve are captured by Blacks - orens only should have value as a disks made of auriferous alloy.

 

[Tolke]

Ok Zorba, I think what you are saying. And in part you are answering my doubts. But then again, there must be some discrepances. First, if the villager does not have gold, how can they pay in gold, like 200 o 300 gold ? Ok you cannot take that there are paying in gold, maybe some minor coins like silver & copper, etc etc... Even thoug, 300 crowns in silver and other metals is to much money for a medium size village, don't you think ?

In the quest "The cat and the wolf" in the end you can give 40 crown so the child and family could live without worry, that let me think that 1 crown is much more what a peasant could do in a year, with 40 they can live without worrys for many years.

What i have percieved in the game for the currency system, is that is not well developed, It is done so the player can have just enought money or a bit under it to play well, but it is not well developed world wide.

 

[gregee123]

What i have percieved in the game for the currency system, is that is not well developed, It is done so the player can have just enought money or a bit under it to play well, but it is not well developed world wide.

You didn't realize that it's to all RPG's and many other games apart from some of the better economic strategy games?

Economy in most games is always rudimentary much like physics, biology, psychology you name it.

 

[SigilFey]

Ok Zorba, I think what you are saying. And in part you are answering my doubts. But then again, there must be some discrepances. First, if the villager does not have gold, how can they pay in gold, like 200 o 300 gold ? Ok you cannot take that there are paying in gold, maybe some minor coins like silver & copper, etc etc... Even thoug, 300 crowns in silver and other metals is to much money for a medium size village, don't you think ?

In the quest "The cat and the wolf" in the end you can give 40 crown so the child and family could live without worry, that let me think that 1 crown is much more what a peasant could do in a year, with 40 they can live without worrys for many years.

What i have percieved in the game for the currency system, is that is not well developed, It is done so the player can have just enought money or a bit under it to play well, but it is not well developed world wide.

It's an interesting point -- and this is something that affects immersion! On the whole, I find the story relatively believable. First, Witcher contracts are not necessarily supposed to be paid by just one family. The point of most contracts is that something is plaguing a village or town, and many families contribute to a pot that may result in a few hundred crowns. One villager will be the spokesperson, and that's who you speak to. In general, I think a normal family would earn about 20 - 40 crowns per year, per working person in the household. About 2/3 of that would go towards expenses, just like income in the real world. 1/3 would be savings or be blown at the local pub...just like in the real world. You can probably double that amount for the average citizen making an honest living in a larger city. 40 crowns would certainly allow a family to "live without worry" insofar as they would not have to bankrupt themselves to feed another mouth.

Is the economy balanced on a knife's edge for ultimate realism? No, not at all. Is it roughly believable? Certainly, if you keep a few things in mind:

1.) War zones often have extremely unstable economies. I appreciate the detail of finding three different types of currency, two of which are no longer in circulation -- that smacks of wartime. Nice touch!

2.) Often, people from affluent countries are not aware of how little a human being needs to survive and lead a productive life. Over 50% of the world's population makes less than $1,500 USD per year. And somehow, they live, work, eat, wear clothes, get married, have children, laugh, enjoy themselves... I would say the game's economy is fairly balanced. (Except for food items. I'm to pay 42 crowns for a jug of water, which I can get at a well for free, but a roast chicken is only 12? Where are we? Prague???)

3.) As to payment received for the contracts themselves -- consider the threat. If there is a long-standing problem, the pot will have grown over time. Or it will have grown quickly if the threat is serious. The game itself addresses how this is possible. Even the poorest people will squirrel away things of value; squeeze them hard enough, and you'll be amazed at what you can find. Personal side quests that result in hefty payment are rare -- about as rare as the number of people who would be able to scrape together enough money to interest a Witcher. Pretty much every NPC you come across would have a quest for you. It's just every 1/100 that has enough money to do anything about it.

 

[vahouth]

1.) War zones often have extremely unstable economies. I appreciate the detail of finding three different types of currency, two of which are no longer in circulation -- that smacks of wartime. Nice touch!

Only Orens are out of circulation, Florens are Nilfgaard's currency and I fully expected all transactions in White Orchard and Velen to be conducted in Florens.
This way Vivaldi's bank would have a better role IMHO, where you could change currency each time you planned on visiting certain places.
Also why would Skelliger's adopt Crowns?

 

[GratuitousViolets]

Only Orens are out of circulation, Florens are Nilfgaard's currency and I fully expected all transactions in White Orchard and Velen to be conducted in Florens.
This way Vivaldi's bank would have a better role IMHO, where you could change currency each time you planned on visiting certain places.
Also why would Skelliger's adopt Crowns?

I expected Skellige's currency to be "Skelligs" lol.

 

[zorba1138]

Only Orens are out of circulation, Florens are Nilfgaard's currency and I fully expected all transactions in White Orchard and Velen to be conducted in Florens.
This way Vivaldi's bank would have a better role IMHO, where you could change currency each time you planned on visiting certain places.
Also why would Skelliger's adopt Crowns?

Crown is a generic name for a currency under a specific monarchy they are also usually bullion so they are literally worth their weight in which every metal they were minted.

Considering that Skellige has a king, and that most of their "income" comes from raiding sea borne trade routes they can use what ever coins they want and trade them as bullion without minting local currency.

Historically "Vikings" didn't use minted currency what ever small internal and external trade they made was done usually with small nuggets of pure silver.

Actual currency requires a central government to control and manage otherwise it's the wild west, and if you actually think about it pure FIAT currency is a very recent "invention" in most of the world, yes it's been introduced several times over the years from early imperial China to middle age Europe during the crusades but it didn't really caught on until well past WW2 (and even then until the expiration of the bretton agreement in 1974 many currencies including the US dollar (back when a troy ounce was fixed at 35$) were still using the gold standard).

Heck in New France, sorry Canada in the 17th century the common unit of trade wasn't French money, gold or silver but beaver pelts....

 

[hyeenae]

something that would be quite interesting to have a proper commerce system in the northern realms, where certain events create shortages, certain needs drive up prices etc. right now it's just about looting some gear, get monies and at some point inflate your own wallet

 

[jj284b]

if i remember correctly, in books Novigrad Crowns had highest value of all Nordling currency.

 

[mecha_fish]

while we're discussing this, i think this is a useful resource

http://witcher.gamepedia.com/Currency

I remember wondering how the currency would work and seeing as oxenfurt has its own currency and everything i was super curious how they were going to manage all that. im glad they did it the way they did it.

as for realism for people trying to put a pot together -- i think i get the hint and feel of that, but i dont quite feel like im desperate for their money. i also feel like there's no consequences for the bartering games you can play -- what is the downside of demanding 35 more crowns? will i notice the village looking sicker for my greed despite the monster being removed? i mean, this sort of stuff would be cool, but it's not necessary. just stuff i think about when i demand more coin.

 

[zorba1138]

while we're discussing this, i think this is a useful resource

http://witcher.gamepedia.com/Currency

I remember wondering how the currency would work and seeing as oxenfurt has its own currency and everything i was super curious how they were going to manage all that. im glad they did it the way they did it.

as for realism for people trying to put a pot together -- i think i get the hint and feel of that, but i dont quite feel like im desperate for their money. i also feel like there's no consequences for the bartering games you can play -- what is the downside of demanding 35 more crowns? will i notice the village looking sicker for my greed despite the monster being removed? i mean, this sort of stuff would be cool, but it's not necessary. just stuff i think about when i demand more coin.

It would be just an unnecessary and utterly pointless thing, in the books Oxenfurt isn't less than 5min horse ride from Novigrad there aren't that many vendors you want to buy stuff off anyhow and getting some 3 random coins from 3 different villages which are pretty much in sight distance from each other would be utterly idiotic.

People tend to think that complexity some how reflects realism and increases immersion having adding a Sage 50 accounting option to the UI won't make the game more immersive or realistic.

 

[Trireme]

In the Novigrad "Eternal Fire" short story Geralt asks for 22 crowns for a new leather jacket.

Also:
"merchant Biberveldt requests thirty crowns in cash, because he has to pay a bribe, eat something, and drink some beer..."

 

[mecha_fish]

It would be just an unnecessary and utterly pointless thing, in the books Oxenfurt isn't less than 5min horse ride from Novigrad there aren't that many vendors you want to buy stuff off anyhow and getting some 3 random coins from 3 different villages which are pretty much in sight distance from each other would be utterly idiotic.

Exactly. It doesn't make quite a lot of sense in gameplay, and I'd heard they had some kind of exchange system planned so I was concerned as to how they were going to approach it. But I think they've approached it in the right way.

People tend to think that complexity some how reflects realism and increases immersion having adding a Sage 50 accounting option to the UI won't make the game more immersive or realistic.

It depends on the complexity and what the purpose of the game is already. For Wild Hunt, there could be a little more balancing if not for the sake of realism but the sake of challenge in regards to loot, coin and spending. In regards to what I was talking about before -- the haggling minigame doesn't seem to have much point in the world of the witcher unless asking for more gold meant something actually bad. Most games I'd expect some kind of morality check (which the witcher doesnt have, obviously). and i also know that if you kill certain monsters in certain areas, the local village can be plundered or decimated. so hence, my thinking that there could be something. i dont desire it, but i think haggling is pointless really, otherwise.

 

[SigilFey]

Since we're into this discussion...

I think it would be interesting for a game to correctly model the real-world Dark Age to early Medieval currency systems. Most people during these periods would see very little "money" in their life. Their day-to-day life consisted mostly of bartering -- goods/services directly for goods/services.

"Coin" was reserved primarily for the coffers of nobility, who would use it to pay tributes, raise armies, pay ransoms, etc.. Merchants always dealt regularly in coin as far back as history goes, but almost always as a way of filling-in-the-gaps of a trade. You wanted to fill your ship with goods, not coins. Many people would hoard money, never spending a piece of it (often for generations), until they had the opportunity to make an investment: buying land, cattle, horses, a ship, a title, etc.. Wealth and poverty were still governed by how much coin you owned, but it's not as if you would go to the tavern and buy a loaf of bread and a mug of ale with money. Well, maybe once in a great while. You would supply a tavern keeper with barley for the brewing stills, or a portion of your hunt for the kitchens, or so many hours sweeping and cleaning, and you would get food and drink in return. Only travelers would spend money at an inn or tavern.

On the whole, the wealthy used money like we do today, more or less. The vast majority of people bartered or just worked the earth to get what they needed. Even "taxes" were not usually paid in money: they were largely paid in food or goods. (Might give some a whole new understanding of why tax collectors were so hated. They didn't take your money, they emptied your cupboards of weeks or even months worth of food.)

It would be neat for a game to model this. The player would need to "purchase" things through bartering or services. They would only be able to use coin on occasion for special things.

 

[alaskawolf]

Not quite correct Zorba. The the Vikings did in fact use and (eventually) mint currency; primarily though they simply used everyone else's. =)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/money_01.shtml