Can't see what all the fuss is about myself, the setiing isn't detailed, nuanced or consistent enough to be worth arguing about.
Edit: THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION.
Edit: THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION.
This isn't about a Bioware plot, this isn't abut Dragon Age even.
This is about Loghain: One of most nuanced, well written, excellently voiced acted character Bioware has ever created and certainly one of their most memorable antagonists. He is like a force of nature whose name gives birth to dozen long pages of argument for and against him. To this day he is discussed on the Bioware Social Network and is one of most memorable and talked about character in the entire series.
The only other who comes close is Alistair, but even Alistair is not as widely debated as Loghain is, and generally when he is it is part of a wider Loghain discussion, and you wonder why there's such an argument about him here?
Pro-Loghain and Anti-Loghain fans have been at each other's throats for years now, a perpetual war where neither side sees victory but continues to fight it regardless. What really makes it special is the ambiguity of his character: Is he mad, or is her right or a bit of both? The truth is there, but it's buried quite deep requiring logical dedication, critical thinking and shifting through long threads on BSN to find developers posts on the matter.
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I've been on the BSN long enough to know the fans put more dedicated, logical thought into the stories than the writers have. Not to demean Loghain, a great character. Anyways, carry on.
Oh pro-Loghainers have had their victories. Even some of the most ardent Loghain-haters ended up seeing the light.
I can agree that it is how Bioware WANTED to present Loghain, but not what they actually did. Yes, good voice acting, great script, but the series of events are simply atrociously bad writing. I agree, to try to save Cailin was out of the question, but to just run? What about closing the gates behind them if no one can be saved, or to try to extract as many people as possible before closing or even collapsing them? Sure, darkspawn will dig a tunnel pretty fast, but it would save time. Given what Bioware wanted with Loghain, I see no damn reason for him simply to leave. If they were to present him as a dickhead teenager who does not really give a shit about his people, and who left with a hope that darkspawn would just gouge themselves and go away, so the problem would simply disappear, his retreat would make sense. Were he to desire power, and not really care, all his activity against the warden and the bannorn would make sense. But for the way they want him to be his behavior simply does not make any sense.
There is no good explanation for his retreat because it does not make sense even from military perspective. To leave 300 soldiers to hold the chock-point while evacuating and drafting every young man is much better even if those 300 all die. When darkspawn descended on defenseless people, the region lost practically all recruiting potential. People who could be drafted were simply killed off. You really need to be a complete dickhead to retreat and open the countryside to the swarm of frigging locust devouring everything. What he did after that also does not make any sense for a person who cares about his country becuase all he did was hunting the Grey Warden and alienating people. I am sorry, but after that any his voicing against Orleis and any explanations he gave for me was completely according to "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel", when people do crap and try to white-wash it claiming they did it for the good of the realm.
On the landsmeet I always kill him as I would kill any deserter, only he was much worse - he could have saved a lot of people with practically no danger for himself, but he chose to go and consolidate his authority while the darkspawn massacred his countrymen. Whatever Bioware wanted to show, all his complexity, was completely irrelevant, when his actions speak load and clear. So I'd say good character writing, completely ruined by a piss-poor stupid development of events.
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What gates are you talking about exactly if I might ask? There's no strong defensible position in the besides Ostagar and by the time the beacon was light it was too late to make any difference. I see no reason to believe he could have changed anything. By retreating in good order he saved a sizable chunk of the army present there.
As for holding the Darkspawn after that, you apparently missed the part where he was trying to order the nobility to rebuild the army so they could fight but then half of the nobles went against him and his power base was far from the front lines.
As for holding the Darkspawn after that, you apparently missed the part where he was trying to order the nobility to rebuild the army so they could fight but then half of the nobles went against him and his power base was far from the front lines.
Ostagar was highly defensible, a natural chock-point with enough stones from the ruins to build a barricade. Darkspawn would dig under it eventually, as they used to do in the deep roads, but three-four days would make all the difference. Bioware made this part of a story really bad - first, Loghain was against involving other forces, and believed that his battle plan was sufficient to stop this what he believed to be a "large darkspawn raid". The battle demonstrated that the horde was much more powerful and dangerous that he or anyone else expected. It was obvious that if no one holds them, and people are not warned in time, the horde will overrun the country-side, which is exactly what happened. Why would a responsible general just leave now knowing full well how dangerous this horde is?
Also he was the head of the state. It was his responsibility to rebuild an army, and not just order the barons whom he alienated by his previous actions. Were he to hold the darkspawn as long as he could, while announcing evacuation and Ferelden-wide draft, order the craftsmen to work 24/7 to make arms and armor for new recruits, to try to evacuate the most important resources form the South, and do other things the rulers should be doing when they face an invasion, barons would have reacted differently. But the man who rust ran and left his countrymen to be slaughtered does not really command any respect or authority. That's why eventually it was a Grey Warden who built an army and not a former hero who did practically nothing good for his country during this crisis.
But I don't think that it was what Bioware wanted. They simply did not think it through, and probably believed that what people say is enough to develop characters, while what they do is not really relevant.
Also he was the head of the state. It was his responsibility to rebuild an army, and not just order the barons whom he alienated by his previous actions. Were he to hold the darkspawn as long as he could, while announcing evacuation and Ferelden-wide draft, order the craftsmen to work 24/7 to make arms and armor for new recruits, to try to evacuate the most important resources form the South, and do other things the rulers should be doing when they face an invasion, barons would have reacted differently. But the man who rust ran and left his countrymen to be slaughtered does not really command any respect or authority. That's why eventually it was a Grey Warden who built an army and not a former hero who did practically nothing good for his country during this crisis.
But I don't think that it was what Bioware wanted. They simply did not think it through, and probably believed that what people say is enough to develop characters, while what they do is not really relevant.
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Ostagar was overrun, or did you perhaps miss that part? By that point the fortress was cutoff from any possibility of Loghain taking it back. If you are arguing he should have instead not given open battle to the Darkspawn that's another matter, to which I reply: Cailan.
I find the notion that Loghain should have retreated inside a fortress with no supply lines or communications lines to be ludicrous especially with a highly demoralized army.
How would he rebuild the army anyway on his own? Fereldan is a medieval kingdom which relies on nobles bringing men. The battle of Ostagar was largely fought by Denerim, Highever and Gwaren forces, so where would he get the army besides the Bannorn.
Besides, it took the Darkspawn some time to actually advance and take Lothering, by that point the civil war had already started. The south is barely inhabited anyway so it has no real strategic value.
Finally you are talking of highly irrational, selfish lot of nobles.
I find the notion that Loghain should have retreated inside a fortress with no supply lines or communications lines to be ludicrous especially with a highly demoralized army.
How would he rebuild the army anyway on his own? Fereldan is a medieval kingdom which relies on nobles bringing men. The battle of Ostagar was largely fought by Denerim, Highever and Gwaren forces, so where would he get the army besides the Bannorn.
Besides, it took the Darkspawn some time to actually advance and take Lothering, by that point the civil war had already started. The south is barely inhabited anyway so it has no real strategic value.
Finally you are talking of highly irrational, selfish lot of nobles.
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The battle started with the army out of the gates, in the open field. As I understand that was a point of choosing Ostagar to begin with. Ostagar was overrun, obviously, but later. First darkspawn horde had to deal with the army outside. Then, even if some darkspawn managed to get inside, it was not that many. Instead of helping army in the field as he previously planned, Loghain should have secured Ostagar. It was an awesome defensible position, and not to use it to his advantage was beyond stupid.
"Did your scouts keenly watch the battlefield?" Apparently not. Any normal general actually observes the battle and makes corrections to his plans, and the darkspawn shouldn't have get into Ostagar to begin with. So Loghain either observed the battle, saw how badly it turned out, and did nothing before it was too late (it was not like he couldn't move until the beacon was lit), or he simply did not care enough even to observe. So it is either extreme incompetence when he waited until there was nothing he could have done, or he just left. Neither option is really inspiring. But, as I said, I don't think it was Bioware's intention, just a lack of proper thinking it through.
"Did your scouts keenly watch the battlefield?" Apparently not. Any normal general actually observes the battle and makes corrections to his plans, and the darkspawn shouldn't have get into Ostagar to begin with. So Loghain either observed the battle, saw how badly it turned out, and did nothing before it was too late (it was not like he couldn't move until the beacon was lit), or he simply did not care enough even to observe. So it is either extreme incompetence when he waited until there was nothing he could have done, or he just left. Neither option is really inspiring. But, as I said, I don't think it was Bioware's intention, just a lack of proper thinking it through.
If Loghain said at the begining; "No, Sir, I and my men won't take part in this madness" he could still fighting for sake of Ferelden with the reason in his hands. He's personal revenge to Cailan and Grey Wardens aim to a massacre. Love for Ferelden? Where? Someone can call that a mistake, to me is a selfish crime. He puts his feelings for his fellow soldiers, lying to them, leaving them in the lurch, before seeking a less selfish route.
I cannot see no personal interet in those acts.
Inevitable compare both games if BW intended not to make the same inconsistencies in thier characters.
I cannot see no personal interet in those acts.
Damn, this is getting worse. Guys this is NOT the BSN alright? The last thing we need is for the community to be at each others throats like they are over there! Just chill out!olice: By the way, I thought this thread was about Dragon Age: Inquisition not Origins.
Inevitable compare both games if BW intended not to make the same inconsistencies in thier characters.
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I like Loghain because if you take him instead of Alistair he maintains his dignity when you deal with him. He does not grovel like a dog nor act passively aggressively towards you which puts him in direct contrast to Alistair. He admits he lost and knows he should not speak unless spoken which (in some ways) makes him morally superior to Alistair who behaves like an absolute twat at the landsmeet.
Many would argue that Alistair's stupidity makes him a lesser character but I think otherwise. Up until the landsmeet I expected him to somehow realize that he really wants this and that he does mature and that he wants the crown (which would have been cliched) but the fact that he doesn't shows that even well-intentioned and honest people are not fit to rule, unless they co-rule with someone more competent (you or Anora). Alistair is humble but he is also not. I suppose comparing him to Loghain is a bit unfair though . After all, Loghain is a man who went through a lot and fought and survived many wars, more over he is a self-made man, which was very rare back then. Finally, I kind of understand his stance on Cailan. Loghain is a man who went through hell and back and earned his position, not inherited it, like Cailan, who behaved like a twat at every opportunity. Just because he's Maric's son does not mean he has any Maric in him.
This is, I suppose how I view Loghain. I don't agree with what he did, but I understand him.
Many would argue that Alistair's stupidity makes him a lesser character but I think otherwise. Up until the landsmeet I expected him to somehow realize that he really wants this and that he does mature and that he wants the crown (which would have been cliched) but the fact that he doesn't shows that even well-intentioned and honest people are not fit to rule, unless they co-rule with someone more competent (you or Anora). Alistair is humble but he is also not. I suppose comparing him to Loghain is a bit unfair though . After all, Loghain is a man who went through a lot and fought and survived many wars, more over he is a self-made man, which was very rare back then. Finally, I kind of understand his stance on Cailan. Loghain is a man who went through hell and back and earned his position, not inherited it, like Cailan, who behaved like a twat at every opportunity. Just because he's Maric's son does not mean he has any Maric in him.
This is, I suppose how I view Loghain. I don't agree with what he did, but I understand him.
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Me too, but understanding him doesn't becomeing him in a generous and unselfish ruler.
Fear not, I agree with you. I don't find Dragon Age interesting at all, as I wrote earlier, the setting is too generic for me and I feel like I've seen everything before somewhere else. Just my feelings about it.
Definitely agree. There are some interesting aspects. My absolute favourite part about Dragon Age is the lore regarding the Fade. The fact that you have a bunch of magic users, who can do wicked cool shit, but for every spell they cast there's a chance they'll be possessed by a demon from the Fade and become an Abomination. So it creates this really fascinating dynamic between guarding these potential nuclear bombs and treating them like slaves or giving them some room to breathe and letting them live their lives in relative peace. After all, the more you push a wizard or a witch the more of a chance there'll be that he snaps. Or worse, willingly turns to blood magic.
I don't know, I really like the whole Fade idea and the way mages have to be treated. Dragon Age Inquisition had the potential of being a pretty beast game but it seems like BioWare, being such awesome storytellers, missed this obvious opportunity and instead chooses to focus on yet another hack "save the world" plot. It could've been a deep story about whether the mages deserve freedom or not but nope. Ugh, I don't know why I even think that BioWare could actually produce something worthwhile. Incompetent fucks, the lot of them. Shame too. I love RPGs and the more the merrier. But I don't like shit games. Regardless of genre.
I don't miss DA2. I'm kinda sick of the mages debate because of this game, this is enough, really. In fact, I'm so tired of this debate I even hope this rift event will cause magic to grow on every people, not just "mages". For me, the conflict lost interest with Asunder.
Actually, DA:I has some potential regarding the lore you liked, with the nature of Cole (one of our companion, was already showed in a novel) and the Fade rifts. This is pure speculation from my part (but there were some hints), but I sometimes think our "Inquisitor" will be a spirit himself (like Justice), ignorant of his own nature.