To add insult to injury, the 18% femshep stat includes dudes who played as her and vice versa with 82% of maleshep players including women.
To add insult to injury, the 18% femshep stat includes dudes who played as her and vice versa with 82% of maleshep players including women.
The average person as in the vast majority. Do I need to quote fucking figures again or do you accept it at common knowledge that the average person isn't really much of a gamer?
You're cherrypicking my words. When I talk about "hardcore" I mean someone who takes games very seriously and plays deep, long and complex games on his/her console or PC. Maybe I should have said "core gamer" but I assumed everyone here was smart enough to understand what I was talking about when I said "hardcore gamer", but I guess I was wrong...
There is a lack of data but it doesn't take a genius to know that the average person isn't a "core gamer".
Who is making general fucking statements now? Are you saying women don't like murdery games? Based on what? You'd actually be surprised how many women play games such as Call of Duty. Do I need to google some data again for you? I really don't feel like it because you're old and wise enough to use google yourself, but you know what? Fuck it, here ya go:
"Thirty percent of women are playing more violent games. Of this 30%, 20% play Call of Duty and 15% play Grand Theft Auto." (http://variety.com/2013/digital/features/womengamers1200683299-1200683299/)
But that's not the point of Assassin's Creed Unity, which is a console and PC game. Mobile gamers aren't part of the target audience for that game.
Yes you can be both, but most aren't. You can draw that conclusion yourself from the numbers I provided in my previous post.
If there is money in it then why not? I'm not the CEO of Ubisoft, but I would think that if there was indeed a huge potential market in the female audience, publishers like Ubisoft would have catered to them by now.
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Whoops, too sweary and aggressive. Some of your otherwise good points are lost in your aggression. If you wouldn't say it to someone's face, probably better not to say it here. Of course, maybe you would swear at me repeatedly in public..in a debate over videogames...I don't know. I'd advise against it, though.
Seems there is a gap here. On the one hand, you say more women are playing mobile and "casual games" than not - although again, I remain unconvinced on how many that actually is. On the other hand, you say that more women are playing violent video games than ever before. Then you follow up by suggesting that there isn't a huge market in women for their Assassin's Creed Unity - pretty violent game. Kind of contradictory. Women are or aren't playing more violent video games and should or shouldn't be considered as a viable market and core gamers?
Lastly, I don't think hard-core gamers are core gamers. I'd say the whichever user segment makes up the majority of people playing and spending money on video games, are core gamers. People that take video games seriously are a pretty small segment, I would think.
Oh, and, yes, I was generalizing about murdery games. Violent games and the protagonists, stories and themes do tend to be more testosterone-focussed? Masculine? I'm not even sure I know how to describe it. Anyway.
http://usabilitynews.org/video-games-males-prefer-violence-while-females-prefer-social/ 2012 study. Some interesting things in there - check it out.
Also interesting is this: http://radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/effectsongender.html "Why is female aggression increased against human opponents, especially male? Perhaps it is the natural feeling of competition, or perhaps it is that females feel the need to be more masculine in a traditionally masculine setting."
Aand then there's this: http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2024265,00.html yeah. The game's tagline: "It's payback time, boys." Not even sure what this means.
Lastly this study was interesting, but somewhat out of date:,http://lin.ca/sites/default/files/attachments/CCLR11-28.pdf This line was fascinating: "Thus it is clear from this study that violent video games, not unlike other forms of leisure, can act as a conduit for both the reproduction and the resistance of gender, violence, and gendered violence".
Anyway. Little off topic AND into a zone that can go south fast. Lots to read and think about, and my takeaway is that regardless of current standings, women are going to be a major factor in core and hardcore gaming soon, if they aren't already. Cater to them!
Seems there is a gap here. On the one hand, you say more women are playing mobile and "casual games" than not - although again, I remain unconvinced on how many that actually is. On the other hand, you say that more women are playing violent video games than ever before. Then you follow up by suggesting that there isn't a huge market in women for their Assassin's Creed Unity - pretty violent game. Kind of contradictory. Women are or aren't playing more violent video games and should or shouldn't be considered as a viable market and core gamers?
Lastly, I don't think hard-core gamers are core gamers. I'd say the whichever user segment makes up the majority of people playing and spending money on video games, are core gamers. People that take video games seriously are a pretty small segment, I would think.
Oh, and, yes, I was generalizing about murdery games. Violent games and the protagonists, stories and themes do tend to be more testosterone-focussed? Masculine? I'm not even sure I know how to describe it. Anyway.
http://usabilitynews.org/video-games-males-prefer-violence-while-females-prefer-social/ 2012 study. Some interesting things in there - check it out.
Also interesting is this: http://radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/effectsongender.html "Why is female aggression increased against human opponents, especially male? Perhaps it is the natural feeling of competition, or perhaps it is that females feel the need to be more masculine in a traditionally masculine setting."
Aand then there's this: http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2024265,00.html yeah. The game's tagline: "It's payback time, boys." Not even sure what this means.
Lastly this study was interesting, but somewhat out of date:,http://lin.ca/sites/default/files/attachments/CCLR11-28.pdf This line was fascinating: "Thus it is clear from this study that violent video games, not unlike other forms of leisure, can act as a conduit for both the reproduction and the resistance of gender, violence, and gendered violence".
Anyway. Little off topic AND into a zone that can go south fast. Lots to read and think about, and my takeaway is that regardless of current standings, women are going to be a major factor in core and hardcore gaming soon, if they aren't already. Cater to them!
I said "fuck" twice... That is being too sweary? lol okay. And yes I do talk that way in real life.
Okay, let me break it down for you then:
- Most women don't play games.
- Those who do mostly play mobile games.
- The women who do play console and PC games, mostly don't play violent games, but a good chunk of them do (30%).
- I suggested that if catering more to women with the Assassin's Creed would be profitable, Ubisoft probably would have done it by now.
The majority of people playing and spending money on games are core-gamers. They are the target audience for most devs, because they are the people who are most easily turned into loyal fans/loyal buyers. Casual gamers outnumber the core gamers, but they are too unreliable to focus on as your main target audience.
I'm sure the billion-dollar-generating companies such as Ubisoft know what they are doing. Not to say they don't make mistakes, but I'm pretty sure they know who to cater to in order to make the most amount of money. If catering to women will generate a lot of money, then I'm sure we will see more games with women as the target audience in the near future.
Which is ultimately the only thing you care about as a multi-billion-dollar company publishing videogames.
Well, really, most people don't play video games. http://venturebeat.com/2013/11/25/more-than-1-2-billion-people-are-playing-games/. We're still a subset of the vast majority. Always worth remembering that our bubble is not the world's bubble. Bigbubble, though.
Of those people playing video games, most are men, but this is tough to find out, since a lot of countries like China and India don't report in clearly. Women, on the other hand, do play other games, of course. It's not a core male..actually, wait. I don't know if it is or not. Hmm.
I'd certainly agree that right now, most videogamers are male, outside the mobile market. Most surveys seem to follow that up. Would you agree that the percentage of female core gamers is growing, though?
Would you further agree it might be in developer's interests to attract that growing market segment?
Now, I wonder if female protagonists turn off male gamers? One of those studies I linked had some interesting reactions among males and females when playing opposite genders.
Oh, did you see the chart indicating that PC is most preferred among males, with consoles most preferred among females? That was a surprise to me, actually. Mobile was also more preferred by females than males.
Of those people playing video games, most are men, but this is tough to find out, since a lot of countries like China and India don't report in clearly. Women, on the other hand, do play other games, of course. It's not a core male..actually, wait. I don't know if it is or not. Hmm.
I'd certainly agree that right now, most videogamers are male, outside the mobile market. Most surveys seem to follow that up. Would you agree that the percentage of female core gamers is growing, though?
Would you further agree it might be in developer's interests to attract that growing market segment?
Now, I wonder if female protagonists turn off male gamers? One of those studies I linked had some interesting reactions among males and females when playing opposite genders.
Oh, did you see the chart indicating that PC is most preferred among males, with consoles most preferred among females? That was a surprise to me, actually. Mobile was also more preferred by females than males.
What I'm wondering is, when did the discussion about gamers (not categorized as female or male) wanting more well written playable female characters, became an argument about what large companies that make games, think about the "female" market, and how to make money from it. :O
It is quite obvious that when a market promises profits, companies will capitalize on it. It's the way it normally works. But I do not think that this discussion is the discussion the OP had in kind. Might be wrong though. Anyway
It is quite obvious that when a market promises profits, companies will capitalize on it. It's the way it normally works. But I do not think that this discussion is the discussion the OP had in kind. Might be wrong though. Anyway
Yes.
Once that growing market segment becomes large enough and it becomes lucrative to invest in that market segment, then yes.
Sometimes female protagonists do turn off male gamers. In most cases it seems male gamers prefer to play as a male protagonist (evident by the number of male Shepard players versus the number of female Shepard players).
I saw and it honestly doesn't surprise me.
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I asked a question about gender-neutrality and appealing to female gamers earlier in this thread, which lead to this discussion. It's really at the core of this discussion though. Wanting more female protagonists is generally something you hear hand-in-hand with wanting more gender-neutrality in videogames, which comes from the women who feel left out by the game companies and who want more game companies to cater to their needs, which then turns to the question whether there are enough female gamers who care about this gender-neutrality to make it lucrative for the companies to cater to them.
Oh come on, sometimes that is justified. It’s silly to broaden the definition of “gamer” to the point where it almost means nothing anymore because of its ambiguity. That’s like looking at one guy who only eats fast food all day, every day and a connoisseur of fine foods and then calling them both gourmets.
Yeah, question is, should business lead the way or adapt to market conditions. Bit of both, I suppose.
I was surprised that so many women in that study preferred console, but I'm not sure why. Some hidden prejudice of mine, probably.
For me, I always play as a male. Just not comfortable generally otherwise. So I sympathize with people that prefer to play as a female. That said, I quite enjoyed Tomb Raider, ( no lynchings,no lynchings!), for example.
@demut Yes, I was being a tad facetious. Ooh, I just used the word, "tad", while talking about being facetious! Bonus Pomposity Points to me! I could have been more precise, but what I was getting at, other than also indulging in a sweeping generalization to make a point, is that there is a line between gamers - people that play video games - and non gamers - most of the rest of the world. And that, to end on a disgustingly sweet note, that I deeply deeply regret ending up at, ( ruin my Cyber Cred), that as gamers we have much more in common with each other than people who don't have any fun at all or are uninterested in games whatsoever - mobile, console, or PC God Mode.
Why, yes, I do prefer PC gaming. What made you ask. OFF TOPIC. FLOGGING BEGINS NOW.
I'm not sure I understand the meaning of the phrase gender-neutrality. Does it refer to video games having a more even distribution of male/female characters? Or does it refer to video games being interesting enough for both genders? I do not think that, wanting more female protagonists in videogames, comes just from women who feel left out. I would also like to have more female protagonists in video games, well written characters that both females and males can somewhat relate to. I think I am not a woman though. The reasons why I want that are my own, and I am not sure that they interest anybody here. In the case that they do, I can explain them.
I worked on hidden object games for a fairly successful studio over the past year, and yes, the protagonists are predominantly women. The audience tends to be older (40+), which is where the casual part comes into play, as a lot of them aren't comfortable with fast-paced gameplay and prefer to take their time to read things, solve puzzles and so on. The "hardcore" version of HOPAs would be point-and-click adventure games, but those have sadly died out in the past decade. Incidentally, those, too, feature a lot of really amazing, well-written female characters.
I play AC's type games as male main character because I love it and also because there's no any AAA games with female protagonist in the market. And I have no philosophy studies. I mean... why are you guys generalizing about my reasons to play AAA games as a female gamer?
No one of some portraits about female gamer that some of you have done here reflect me at all.
No one of some portraits about female gamer that some of you have done here reflect me at all.
Basically it comes down to some people wanting more strong female lead characters in games and less damsel in distress characters in games. Because lets be honest, we don't have a lot of strong female leads in videogames who are also well written and interesting to play with. I'm pretty sure the damsels outnumber the strong ladies in videogames. Personally I have no issue with that, but I can understand why some people would get a bit tired of always playing the masculine man kicking ass and getting to save the damsel who either already is or becomes the hero's lover at the end.
Personally all I care about it whether the story and characters are interesting and well written. I don't care if I have to play as yet another masculine man having to save yet another damsel, as long as the masculine man and damsel are interesting and well written characters in a decent story. An example of a well written story with a masculine hero and a damsel who needs saving would be The Witcher 2, where Geralt is the masculine man and Triss is the damsel in distress.
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@Lucos The Dutch
Now that, I can agree with. Either way, I would guess that female gamers care just as much as you do, whether the main characters are either female or male, provided that they are well written.
Doesn't mean that gaming is in no need of more well written female characters. My point being, that this need, is not just a female gamers need. It is the need of everyone, regardless of gender, that would like to "promote", equality among video game characters.
A damsel as you say, may be well written, but is still a damsel. And since women tend to relate to women more than they can relate to men protagonists, it is only logical that they request more female protagonists. And that request, being logical, has my full support, regardless it being financially worth it or not.
Now that, I can agree with. Either way, I would guess that female gamers care just as much as you do, whether the main characters are either female or male, provided that they are well written.
Doesn't mean that gaming is in no need of more well written female characters. My point being, that this need, is not just a female gamers need. It is the need of everyone, regardless of gender, that would like to "promote", equality among video game characters.
A damsel as you say, may be well written, but is still a damsel. And since women tend to relate to women more than they can relate to men protagonists, it is only logical that they request more female protagonists. And that request, being logical, has my full support, regardless it being financially worth it or not.
Yep. I'd agree - strong story first, absolutely. That said, if I can have a new and interesting twist AND a strong story, even better. Role reversal can be interesting, or gay/transgender main character would be interesting...as long as it was plus a good story.
But I'm a story addict. Some people are much more into gameplay and may simply want an avatar they feel more comfortable with, regardless of story. And that's fine. I, too, enjoyed Call of Duty.
But I'm a story addict. Some people are much more into gameplay and may simply want an avatar they feel more comfortable with, regardless of story. And that's fine. I, too, enjoyed Call of Duty.
videogames should be videogames, if people want to editorialize, they should become a journalist, not a game developer.
I personally wouldn't mind a game where you play as a completely alien species, not one of the Star Trek or Mass Effect aliens that are just different racial stereotypes of humanity, but an actual different culture. With different physical appearances, genders, languages and civilisations, something far out and beyond the pale, that glories in its oddity. Stck some Roger Dean artwork in there, some groovy prog rock experimentation and a script written by a madman poet, and I think we'd have something that wouldn't sell but would be nice.