Is CDPR moving in the wrong direction?

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Is CDPR moving in the wrong direction?

  • This new direction concerns me

    Votes: 36 25.0%
  • I like this new direction

    Votes: 8 5.6%
  • I don't like the new direction but I'm not worried

    Votes: 13 9.0%
  • I don't think they're going in a new direction

    Votes: 87 60.4%

  • Total voters
    144
Is CDPR moving in the wrong direction?

With recent additions to the game, CDPR is showing signs of choosing a new path in their storytelling, and as a long time fan, I find this more troubling than exciting.

I’ve been a long time fan of the RPG genre. The usual staples. Old Infinity and Aurora engine RPGs. Diablo 2, etc. But eventually I got bored. I bought the original Witcher based entirely on word of mouth. The RPGs I was familiar with all belonged to one of three categories: The hack-and-slashes, the open world RPG, and the story driven RPG. (For the sake of convenience rather than accuracy, I’ll refer to the latter two as “Bethesda” and “Bioware” style RPGs, respectively) The Witcher intrigued me because it promised to be something different.

While superficially similar to a Bioware style RPG, the Witcher differed on several key respects. You controlled a single character in Geralt. Rather than a party, your “companions” went about their own lives in the game world, dropping in and out of the story at need. And most importantly: choice and consequence. This phrase has been thrown around a lot in marketing during the past decade. But with the Witcher, it actually meant something. Rather than just choosing which way you wanted things to go, you had to actually think about what you wanted and how to get there. Morality was truly grey, tactical situations murky. You didn’t know what the “right” choice was when you made it, and often, even afterwards.

In a “Bioware” style RPG, more often than not, the player character is a major mover of the game universe; sometimes literally a “chosen one”. Choices usually amount to a simple decision about where you want the story to go. Are you good or evil? Does this character you like die, or does this other one die instead? Except when mandated by the plot, in effect, the player is always right. In The Witcher even if you knew what you wanted, it wasn’t clear how best to get there. A Bioware style RPG asked if you wanted Coke or Pepsi. The Witcher offered a fully loaded bar at the end of a trap laden obstacle course. This removed the need to think as a player of a game, and encouraged one to think in character. I didn’t think about where I wanted the story to go. I thought about what Geralt would do. Ironically, a restricted character with poor access to information offered a richer opportunity for roleplaying in this roleplaying game. Suddenly, all my previous attempts at roleplaying in games like Planescape: Torment all the way up to Mass Effect 2 felt quite shallow.

On top of this, the game didn’t pull its punches. You missed a hint or subtext? Too bad, take your licks and move on. Characters had their own agenda, rather than being shallow companions or strawman villains meant to feed the player’s ego; and despite being the PC, the world did not revolve around Geralt. I rarely had any idea what was going to happen next. When a character was in danger, I felt genuine uncertainty. This was not a feeling I had playing any other RPG, and it made the high points that much higher.

The Witcher 3 was no exception to this. The first 3/4ths of the game were absolutely fantastic, albeit with a few glaring omissions (Iorveth chief among them). The final quarter of the game was rather ragged and unpolished, but I’d come to expect CDPR to correct those sorts of mistakes later, so I didn’t worry about it. The eventual Hearts of Stone expansion was a masterful story, perhaps their best yet. So again, I was willing to be patient. The events leading up to the addition of new (and uncharacteristically poorly written) “romance option” dialogue were rather off-putting, but again, I dismissed it as a minor hiccup.

Then we came to Blood and Wine. From the start, I knew to expect a change of tone. It was all over the previews. But I didn’t expect a change in CDPR’s writing philosophy. I never felt the slightest moral dilemma in any quest or sidequest I undertook, and uncertainty about how things would progress was absent outside of a few parts of the main quest. Rather than subverting a fairy tale atmosphere, it played it straight. Fanservice was abundant and in your face. The inexplicable return of Regis, complete disconnect from the rest of the story, a player house to add to the feature list; and perhaps worst of all, the strangely exaggerated, fanfiction-like characterization of Geralt’s companions in the post ending scenes. The finale felt unearned, the change in characterization of old staples like the now fawning Yennefer and Ciri (and Papa Emhyr) jarring.

Yes, it was a sharp contrast to the rest of the game, as was their goal, but it was…boring. Clear solutions to almost every problem, black and white morality, absence of suspense... I felt like I was playing an actual Bioware game. Even Geralt was different. Previously, CDPR had attempted to make every option something Geralt could conceivably choose, depending on player’s interpretation of the character. Here, they seemed to have made no such attempt. The Geralt in one dialogue option could seem totally different from the Geralt in another. His history and personality was largely meaningless. For the first time, I felt like I was playing just another guy. A generic cipher that was simply a tool for interacting with the world.
Just like in almost every other RPG.

I liked those RPGs. I liked Blood and Wine. I’m glad I played it. But if this is a sign of things to come, I’m worried. Plot ideas and characterization taken directly from fan forums, a generic player character and NPCs that exist to facilitate a power fantasy…I’ve seen it all before. On top of this, there is to be no Enhanced Edition. CDPR is not correcting existing mistakes as they’ve done in the past, except at the behest of extremely vocal online petitioners.

The first purpose of CDPR is to make money. The second is to serve its customers. This is natural and good. But I have to wonder, is this the best way to accomplish those two aims, in the long term? We know these methods can be profitable. Multiple companies have become quite successful making these sorts of games, Bioware and Bethesda among them. But…Bioware and Bethesda already exist, and they have a lot of experience being Bioware and Bethesda, not to mention brand recognition. CDPR has made it to the mainstream and TW3 is a success, but its sales still pale in comparison to Fallout 4 or Dragon Age Inquisition. Will trying to force its way into an already crowded market niche really allow them to reach such heights? It’s certainly not how they’ve arrived where they are now. And besides, no one that’s started small and risen far like they have is motivated purely by profits. Small business owners want to feel that they’re making something truly worthwhile. I think this is still the case.

I do not criticize so harshly because I am angry or hold any dislike for the dev’s or their fan community. I simply want to keep enjoying these games as I have in the past (and coincidentally, keep giving CDPR money). Neither is Blood and Wine a bad expansion. I simply fear that things may go further in this direction. In which case the series is likely to lose its appeal for me.

Maybe this is the way of the future. Maybe it will lead to ever greater profits. But if Cyberpunk continues this trend, none of those profits will come from me. Like I said, I’ve gotten bored of those kinds of game plots years ago. It’s my hope that a silent majority of existing CDPR fans feels similarly. If so, maybe CDPR can be dissuaded from this course. After all, they’ve bowed to pressure from vocal fans on the internet before. Let’s find out. Do any of you feel the same way?
 
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I can't say I really felt this way about Blood and Wine. I thought it was a great send off to Geralt and it's full of interesting characters and I really enjoyed the story. I'm not too knowledgeable about all this choice and consequence and how it was written worse than in other Witcher titles; I just enjoyed the game. This post probably sounds ignorant, so I'm sorry.

I will say that I don't think how Blood and Wine was written is indicative of how Cyberpunk '77 will be written. It sounds like Cyberpunks' story will be written even more around your decisions.
 
To those voting for the fourth option: Are you doing so because your opinion is that Blood and Wine's overall tone is a one-off and we can expect a return to earlier form for Cyberpunk? Or do you not see any particular difference between Blood and Wine and the rest of the series?
 

Guest 3847602

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To those voting for the fourth option: Are you doing so because your opinion is that Blood and Wine's overall tone is a one-off and we can expect a return to earlier form for Cyberpunk? Or do you not see any particular difference between Blood and Wine and the rest of the series?

I think overall lighthearted tone of BaW was mostly the result of it being Geralt's farewell party - none of the BaW endings have permanently bad consequences for Geralt; even the main game's bad or bittersweet endings doesn't have any negative influences on the bonus scene (epilogue) at Corvo Bianco.
So yeah, I believe the writers simply didn't have a heart to leave Geralt for good in a bad shape and because of this I don't consider the tone of BaW as a sign of things to come from CDPR. ;)
 
I think the choice to make such a farewell in the first place is a departure for CDPR. Especially combined with the added (and in Yennefer's case, entirely unnecessary) romance dialogue with Geralt.
 
I think the choice to make such a farewell in the first place is a departure for CDPR. Especially combined with the added (and in Yennefer's case, entirely unnecessary) romance dialogue with Geralt.

Totally disagree, on both accounts.

Geralt has been the face and sole protagonist of this series for over 30 years. For most fans, this is the true end to his story. C.D.P.R. wanted to end it on a high note. Other-wise, there would have been mass out-rage. That dialogue with Yennefer, much like the whole of B&W, added closure to a love story older than most of this game's fans.
 
Geralt hasn't been the sole protagonist for a long while. Yennefer and Ciri have been major protagonists since Blood of Elves. And the poor, out of character dialogue for Yennefer wasn't exactly ending it on a high note. I don't object to romance. I object to bad romance. Her scenes in the main game are mostly quite good. I was cringing at her epilogue talk. As a fan of the character, it left a bad taste in my mouth. So if their goal was leaving me with a great final impression, it failed in this instance.

The unnecessary dialogue I was talking about in that post was that patched into the main game, not that in Blood and Wine, though. Yennefer didn't need more romance dialogue with Geralt in the base game, she was fine as is. More dialogue between her and Ciri would have been much more beneficial.
 
To those voting for the fourth option: Are you doing so because your opinion is that Blood and Wine's overall tone is a one-off and we can expect a return to earlier form for Cyberpunk? Or do you not see any particular difference between Blood and Wine and the rest of the series?

No I woted this way because your premise is wrong. It is your opinion and you're entitled to it but I think you're wrong.
 
Seems poor writing is more the culprit than any attempt from CDPR to abandon solid C&C. The reality is, they haven't been able to consistently maintain the high standard set by TW1 and TW2. But keep in mind there are literally dozens of well executed examples in TW3. I realized this in my second run. Regarding C&C in BaW, there are tricky choices, but more of that other type CDPR also does well: the obfuscation of consequences. We can't be sure how things will play out. The sense of unpredictability is still there.

I will admit the expansion got too goofy and liberal with the easter eggs though. I wanted to be absorbed by the world at this point since it was Geralt's last hurrah, and the constant fourth wall breaking undermined that.
 
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To those voting for the fourth option: Are you doing so because your opinion is that Blood and Wine's overall tone is a one-off and we can expect a return to earlier form for Cyberpunk? Or do you not see any particular difference between Blood and Wine and the rest of the series?

I don't see a major difference. I wouldn't even say B&W is better/worse than HoS, I liked both, as 2 seperate expansions. I can't see how CDPR goes another direction.
 

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The unnecessary dialogue I was talking about in that post was that patched into the main game, not that in Blood and Wine, though.

I think the quality of dialogues from 1.10 patch was much more serious cause for concern than anything they did in BaW.

Yennefer didn't need more romance dialogue with Geralt in the base game, she was fine as is.

Agreed, but I don't see this epilogue scene as some significant addition to the romance, merely a more expansive resolution to Geralt's story. In case of Yennefer it is in line with their epilogue slide from the main game and with what Geralt wished for them in the books. Uncommonly upbeat, yes, but not in corny or sappy way (well, at least not to me). ;)

More dialogue between her and Ciri would have been much more beneficial.

Amen to this! But, that is something that belonged to the base game, not in the expansion where neither Yen nor Ciri have major roles.
 
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OOodrin, I'd argue all of these things are part of the same phenomena.

A send off including Geralt and Yen is fine, and Yen is sorely lacking from the finale of the main game. My problem is I find her Blood and Wine dialogue to be appallingly poorly written. She doesn't sound like Yen at all. Very sappy, fawning, corny, etc. Unicorn jokes for the umpteenth time and the pun wars suddenly becoming a staple of Geralt and Yen's relationship felt quite fanfictiony to me, as well. Her romantic dialogue pre-patch at Kaer Morhen, Undvik, and Skellige was fine and good. This? Not in the same league.

Kind of hard to argue though if you just don't see it. Corniness can't be quantified.
 

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Unicorn jokes for the umpteenth time and the pun wars suddenly becoming a staple of Geralt and Yen's relationship felt quite fanfictiony to me, as well. Her romantic dialogue pre-patch at Kaer Morhen, Undvik, and Skellige was fine and good. This? Not in the same league.

Well, had they decided to follow the books, Ciri should have been a staple of their relationship, but for some reason her and Yen barely speak to each other (I'm far from happy about this), so the writers had to concentrate on the other stuff.

Kind of hard to argue though if you just don't see it. Corniness can't be quantified.

Yup. Although, I can totally see why you don't like it, as there is difference to what we had in the base game. It's just not "over the line" in my eyes, especially when I consider the circumstances (no more Geralt and Yennefer in the future games).
As I said, these conditions won't apply to the next few games by CDPR, so I don't believe we've just witnessed some permanent "change of course" from them. Just look at the writing quality of "waifu patch" and compare it to HoS, which came out just a few days later.
 
To those voting for the fourth option: Are you doing so because your opinion is that Blood and Wine's overall tone is a one-off and we can expect a return to earlier form for Cyberpunk? Or do you not see any particular difference between Blood and Wine and the rest of the series?
I think they adopted a much lighter toone for B&W because it's Geralt's last apperance. The whole expansion - I'm still playing - feels as if CDPR just wanted to get a lot of fun stuff in there, a lot of fan service and a lot of... let's say "rewards". It feels like a reward getting Corvo Bianco, with Geralt stating that he's always wanted a comfortable bed. It feels like a reward having old monsters back - the Archespores, the Barghests - and it's also a wrap-up. The series comes full circle. We get to face the same enemies we had to fight in the first Witcher game which really is awesome. You get to collect stuff to put on display in the house, you get to reward Roach for her services with a nice comfy stable, you get some fun quests and some really goofy stuff as well which is delightful, really - especially after so many grim and heartbreaking stories in the base game.

I think the main purpose of B&W wasn't necessarily more in-depth-character-analysis and more roleplaying but reward for both Geralt and the players. It's just a big farewell to Geralt and a nod to the players who've supported CDPR for so many years. Sometimes Geralt seems a little bit out of character; the decisions are not that hard. But that's ok. It fits the overall tone and setting of B&W, and it fits it's purpose. I think that Cyberpunk will be completely different. The guys and gals at CDPR know how to write and make a great game. They won't let us down :)
 
I guess I just don't consider a bunch of fanservice a reward. Not why I played the games.

Just look at the writing quality of "waifu patch" and compare it to HoS, which came out just a few days later.
HoS was a full expansion and so the culmination of many month's work. It came out a few days later but the "waifu patch" was most certainly written long after HoS's script was finalized. When you look at it that way...it's been awhile since we saw non-fanservicey-writing from them.
 
@ThePro, I really believe your concerns are unwarranted.

The fanservice in B&W acts as a fitting epilogue to the series, it completes Geralt's story fittingly.

What's left when you remove the fanservice is the main questline which still has it's fair share of moral gray. Three different main endings based on morally grey decisions with the option to kill or save Detlaff as well. Heck, if you don't follow up to find out who the fifth target is, something I believe is entirely conceivable, both sisters die.

For a DLC with all its light moments, both sisters dying is awfully dark.
 
I don't see how it's fitting. It's a massive departure in tone and invalidates a lot of the series existing themes (Ciri's epilogue from a certain ending choice in particular is tantamount to a slap in the face.) If you remove all the fanservice you have only a tiny bit of main quest left., and even then it's pretty trivial to get a perfect happily ever after ending. Now this is still fun, mostly, but it's not The Witcher. And I'm not convinced this is an isolated incident, given prior actions by CDPR. The ending you described was nice though. Only part of B&W I thought was legitimately as great as the rest of the game.

I'm repeating myself a lot now, I suppose. Sorry about that.
 
I don't see how it's fitting. It's a massive departure in tone and invalidates a lot of the series existing themes (Ciri's epilogue from a certain ending choice in particular is tantamount to a slap in the face.) If you remove all the fanservice you have only a tiny bit of main quest left., and even then it's pretty trivial to get a perfect happily ever after ending. Now this is still fun, mostly, but it's not The Witcher. And I'm not convinced this is an isolated incident, given prior actions by CDPR. The ending you described was nice though. Only part of B&W I thought was legitimately as great as the rest of the game.

I'm repeating myself a lot now, I suppose. Sorry about that.

I don't disagree that it was fanservice, but I see this fanservice as a fitting epilogue to the trilogy. A needed epilogue, most good stories have them.

I also don't disagree that their wasn't alot of grey decision making but I think it's not as trivial as you think. I was trying to get Syanna killed and ended up with the good ending. Killing or not killing Detlaff is not an easy decision either.

What I'm saying is that even with all the fanservice (which I liked) there was still a morally grey main storyline. This is why I think there is no concern with CDPR's next game.
 
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