ST is only on top because of Brouver, I 100% guarantee this will change if ST doesn't get some compensation for him, wardancer and elven scout. I'd gladly take all bets on that. I play ST and I can tell you I wont struggle with some half broken archetype while things like NG handbuff are dropping 23 point bronzes. I'll drop this game like a bad habbit if these other op decks don't get nerfed as well.
I switched from my favorite faction (monsters) to ST because I got tired of fighting an uphill battle. Now with the coming nerf that will once again be the case with ST.
I switched from my favorite faction (monsters) to ST because I got tired of fighting an uphill battle. Now with the coming nerf that will once again be the case with ST.
Nope. Handbuff is WRECKED by all top tier decks because of how linear and predictable it is. Alchemy will wipe the floor with it because of Mandrake and Slave Drivers, Brouver will destroy it with Scorch and the fact that the elven swarm explosion is just so powerful that it's able to compete with the large bronzes. Henselt is very powerful, when used ,enough to keep up, not to mention scorch and villentretenmerth. Everything else just aims for a long round 1 to win it and gain control or lose it but bleed as many powerful bronzes as possible.
This is not a defense of NG Handbuff. This is just a fact, which I can back up with raw data from the meta reports. I absolutely detest NG handbuff as well and I've never played it, only against it. But there's a reason it's not going anywhere in the top tier.
I can see why you don't like Nilfgaard as it can admittedly be an irritating faction. But don't let those feelings make you think it's OP. I absolutely detest, mill, handbuff and slave drivers but no NG deck is anywhere near as good as any of the three top ST Decks. Alchemy is the least powerful Tier 1 deck. Everything else NG has to offer is Tier 2 or worse. How can that compare to a faction with at least 3 top tier decks and almost everything else it has to offer being Tier 2, with only spell'tael being Tier 3?
ST is by comparison a far more powerful faction when looked at as a whole. Even if it is on top ''only because of Brouver'' it's still on top.
This is not a defense of NG Handbuff. This is just a fact, which I can back up with raw data from the meta reports. I absolutely detest NG handbuff as well and I've never played it, only against it. But there's a reason it's not going anywhere in the top tier.
I can see why you don't like Nilfgaard as it can admittedly be an irritating faction. But don't let those feelings make you think it's OP. I absolutely detest, mill, handbuff and slave drivers but no NG deck is anywhere near as good as any of the three top ST Decks. Alchemy is the least powerful Tier 1 deck. Everything else NG has to offer is Tier 2 or worse. How can that compare to a faction with at least 3 top tier decks and almost everything else it has to offer being Tier 2, with only spell'tael being Tier 3?
ST is by comparison a far more powerful faction when looked at as a whole. Even if it is on top ''only because of Brouver'' it's still on top.
ser2440;n10875581 said:3 decks. There's also Brouver Shupe which is very popular in the top tier actually. And the meta report shows a good winrate for it too.
There's also a potential 4th in the form of Handbuff, since Brouver's handbuff performs very well compared to other iterations. And 3 out of those 4 decks will not get hit that hard by the rework of the Wardancer.
Let's make a small bet. I predict that the faction will be at the top of the meta even after the balance patch in May. Wanna call it now?
Shupe is not a deck. It's pile of cards meant to allow you to hang in there until you can drop the Shupe nuke and hope it's enough to win the game. Ironically, it IS the strongest scoia'tael deck right now, outside possibly t1-26 mulligan swarm, which I don't play.
Handbuff uses both, the wardancer AND the Cleaver combo. Without them, it'll be another middling deck.
ST can live without brover/cleaver and wardancers. Eithné and even francesca are solid leaders that have powerful effects without the need of any synergy, which you can not say for pretty much almost any other leader from any other faction.
The main problem with ST atm is that it lacks a win con. Which forces people to use cards like nova or shupe which restricts deckbuilding.
If you take out wardancer and brover/cleaver from ST, but give it a solid win con, it will go right there to the top.
The main problem with ST atm is that it lacks a win con. Which forces people to use cards like nova or shupe which restricts deckbuilding.
If you take out wardancer and brover/cleaver from ST, but give it a solid win con, it will go right there to the top.
Hellsmoke77;n10875491 said:
I didn't say 'nerf' though, I said 'some attention'. There may be a solution which doesn't kill it. But the problem is not the same as Commanders Horn because Wardancer is a unique mechanic that doesn't exist for any other card.
How about just make Wardancer neutral then. Maybe then you'll understand why it's a problem.
licker;n10879161 said:
It doesn't have to be neutral, I play against it all the time. Play your spy in round 2 and it's useless. Every match up has a condition, things that you should do or should not do against certain decks. You can't dry pass ST. You want to win round 1, that is your win condition.
I wan't to play a long round against axemen and I don't want to run weather clear......CDPR please adjust axemen so I can be happy and can win games with exactly the deck that I choose to build.
lol let me stop, I already stopped playing so I shouldn't really care anymore. It's just sad to see the game being adjusted for people who don't want a good game but rather easy wins with their preferred decks. Every ST deck runs wardancer and has for a long time, ST doesn't have a 100% win rate. I personally have no issue playing around it and for the few times I do lose to it..GG. I want a challenge not a 100% win rate.
Edit: CDPR doesn't do "attention" without destroying the card. Attention is not a good thing and just because a card is usefull doesn't mean it needs attention.
Last edited:
Lose the CF, go two cards down cause Oppo had played Brouver/Yaevin/Cleaver combo and play your Spy R2 and everything is Hunky-Dory, right? #WeSmartHellsmoke77;n10880251 said:
Not true, not true and GOOD.Hellsmoke77;n10880251 said:
The Wardancer abuse started with the Dorf Metas and than became even bigger issue with the change of one Cleaver. Is this a "long time" for you? Cause I remember WAY different times and those were times when the complaints on the game were more about the Weather Spam and few overtuned cards (mainly in SK).
And how do you play around it, exactly? You lock it in Oppo's hand so he cannot drop it down? Play SK with Olgierd? Sacrifice a Silver slot and pray to draw said Olgierd R1? Give Oppo the control of the game?Hellsmoke77;n10880251 said:
All of those unhealthier or unreliable as it comes.
This argument is idiotic from only one of the sides and SPOILER ALERT - it is not the side that wants Wardancer CHANGED. Like Ronvid was and is now way more fair card than before.
Blue font = mod edit. (Muffliato)
Last edited by a moderator:
Hellsmoke77;n10880251 said:
I challenge you to make a Moonlight or Axeman deck that has a favourable matchup against Brouver with Wardancer R1 on the blue coin. We can play some games afterwards (although I'll note that you still haven't accepted my challenge to play with Sabbath decks). I'll even give you a freebie by not using Aglais or Triss: Telekinesis. If you even make it to 20% win rate, I'll concede you're correct.
What's sad is people who don't understand the game thinking they do. Fortunately CDPR evidently have the data that tells them Wardancer is a problem, and they're acting to fix it. Good job CDPR. As for ST becoming unviable in the future, Laveley knows what he's saying. The other factions all play without the Brouver / Cleaver combo or Wardancers. ST clearly can as well.
What's sad is people trying to be patronizing when they can't see past the end of their nose. Coinflip is an issue. NOBODY has a "favorable" matchup against ANYBODY on a blue coin at this point, unless we're talking T1 deck versus a meme or something. Cleaver/Spy coinflip abuse is an issue. If you remove it, the wardancer is not going to be felt as much as it is right now. It's preventing you from DRYPASS. You play around it by NOT DRYPASSING. That's the trick.
It would be really funny if wardancer got made useless and coinflip and cleaver stayed as they are.
It would be really funny if wardancer got made useless and coinflip and cleaver stayed as they are.
Jeydra;n10880731 said:
Axemen wipes the floor with Brouver. Just like that, because going down 2-3 cards means nothing to it. It was probably my easiest GM in any season, the one when everyone and his mother were playing Brouver. Was it swap? I can't recall atm but one of those.
Laveley said something a little different from what you claim. Bringing up just a part of his post doesn't serve well here. Re-read what he's actually saying.
HenryGrosmont;n10881821 said:
On average I would say the matchup is 50-50 (the meta report agrees, too). But read what I wrote carefully. I said we specify that Brouver 1) gets the red coin and 2) starts with a Wardancer. Under these circumstances I'd be impressed if Axemen wins more than 25% of games.
Laveley said "If you take out wardancer and brover/cleaver from ST, but give it a solid win con, it will go right there to the top." That's the statement I'm agreeing with.
Hellsmoke77;n10880251 said:
So why quit playing then? apparently ST is really challenging to play atm
Maybe the opponents I play against aren't good or I'm just very lucky then...Jeydra;n10883621 said:
And you took it out of the context. This is the part before the one you quoted - Shupe or Nova do not rely on Wardancers too much:Jeydra;n10883621 said:
Laveley;n10877691 said:
HenryGrosmont;n10886861 said:
Beats me. I played Axemen @ top 100 last season. What tends to happen when that happens is that Brouver plays round 1 until the Axemen deck sets up engines such as gold weather. Then it passes to lose up two cards (doable because of the Cleaver combo & the fact that setting up engines is a low-tempo play). And then it uses another Wardancer round 2. The Axemen deck has to pass, which leads to a round 3 down two cards with Ida still unused.
In other words, 25% win rate is impressive.
I don't understand the rest of your post.
Last edited:
Instead of nerf this card, ban that one, I'd kind of like to see a Mahakam Faction. Brouver could lead over there, ST keeps its Wardancers and the two only land in the same deck in the arena. If not a separate Faction, could he be moved to the Northern Realms? Didn't Mahakam send troops to fight with the north in the 5th book? I get that they were trying for a "dwarf/elf" theme with ST, but it wasn't really that simple in the books.
As for Wardancer itself, should it be a little stronger and made silver like Morkvarg and Olgierd? Like make it a 5 and keep its current ability, but now its silver.
As for Wardancer itself, should it be a little stronger and made silver like Morkvarg and Olgierd? Like make it a 5 and keep its current ability, but now its silver.
RoguesawPC;n10918406 said:
No I think resilience should be the only carryover.
I'm not sure about Morkvarg and Olgierd perhaphs they should work like Ronvid: spawn after you've played a card.
Currently they can give control over r2 which is a advantage with red coin.
Same treatment could be done with Wardancer.
RoguesawPC;n10918406 said:
You can kill Mahakam Guard, or silence Morkvarg, or eat Olgerd with Necromancy/Ozzrel from grave, etc
Why dont you understand that main problem with Wardancer is that you cannot interract with it ? You cannot block its ability with any card in game.
ZenaRose;n10918574 said:
Technically true, but it is possible to 'interact' with the mechanic WD uses by sticking cards into your opponents hand so that they can either mulligan the WD and keep something crappy or keep the WD to get rid of the crap you gave them.
Not that I'm suggesting that is a strategy which should be considered as a viable way to 'counter' WD, but there is a way to play against it's mechanic.
ZenaRose;n10918574 said:
I think this is oversimplifying things. Locking Morkvarg is generally less than ideal or at least a low-tempo one. Eating Olgierd is also pretty narrow and not many cards / factions can do it. It's not cheap to commit Ozzrel - an important win condition - to doing so. I would not call Ozzrel a counter to Olgierd.
No, what sets Wardancer apart from these other carryover cards are three factors:
1) Wardancer can be played in round 1. This blocks the opponent drypassing on the blue coin, which is absolutely massive against some decks. Against other decks there's a good chance it forces the opponent down two cards, or at least makes it easier to win on even.
2) You can't tell the opponent has it. If the opponent plays Morkvarg, you know he has carryover and can make plans accordingly. With Wardancer, unless you're reveal, you don't actually know if it's there and the opponent might actually extract value from a card he hasn't drawn (since the impact if he has drawn it is huge, similar to I:Sabbath).
3) You don't take a tempo hit to play Wardancer. Playing Morkvarg or Olgierd for example is just worth 9 points; Mahakam Guard is 6. With Wardancer, you have a much easier time out-tempoing the opponent.