Melee combat, please have depth and make it just as engaging as the fps gameplay.

[Suhiira]

Also bear in mind that console players have only a few buttons to play with, so they can't go as in-depth as you would with a game that doesn't even really have dialog boxes, inventory management, or any of the other things that you never had to deal with in Tekken.

All the more reason for K.I.S.S.
Needless complication is NOT a virtue.

Get rid of the "weapon reload" button everyone uses constantly. When your mag runs dry have the character do the reload animation. At the end of combat assume the character reloads their weapons so everything is ready for the next fight.

In W3 Geralt automatically drew, and sheathed his weapons when combat started/ended, there's another unnecessary button.

Inventory management can be greatly simplified by not having "junk loot" in the game.

Apparently they have a "InstaHeal" inhaler in the game (we're apparently stuck with magical healing, which I'll admit is better then the regeneration we see in most shooters), if they stick to CP2020 and don't add more and more "hit points" every level you need one key for healing because you don't need 5 different levels of healing items.

Etc.

By eliminating many of the gamey standard functions you see in most games you can free up a lot of buttons for other uses.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Also bear in mind that console players have only a few buttons to play with, so they can't go as in-depth as you would with a game that doesn't even really have dialog boxes, inventory management, or any of the other things that you never had to deal with in Tekken.

Are we talking about a modern Xbox/PS4? Modern console controllers may not have the number of individual keys/buttons of KB/M but they aren't exactly lacking in buttons.

 

[Snowflakez]

Definitely not.

But frankly I don't expect it. CP2020 is far to lethal to permit significant amounts of melee/unarmed. Sure, there ARE situations where it's viable, and damn useful. But as your primary combat method?
No.

I don't understand this. It's going to be in game and it's going to be a viable way of progressing through the game. This is known. Where are you getting your expectations other than the source material, which is clearly not being followed to a T (for better or worse)?

Just curious. If they've said anything to make you believe what you believe, I'd love to see it.

Also, I need to change my avatar back. This joke has run its course.

 

[Sardukhar]

I don't understand this. It's going to be in game and it's going to be a viable way of progressing through the game. This is known.

Ahhh..really no, it's not. That viability will depend on lots of things - time to production, difficulty setting, how many times you want to reload your game, etc.

Playing Dark Souls with a dagger is viable - but not for me.

So we don't know to what degree melee will be viable or what that means, presuming CDPR keeps to that plan in the next couple years.

 

[jervi]

Are we talking about a modern Xbox/PS4? Modern console controllers may not have the number of individual keys/buttons of KM/M but they aren't exactly lacking in buttons.

Last time I checked, the number was 16, assuming you count the D-pad as 4 keys that require taking one thumb off the stick. And yes, some fighting games did okay with only 4, though the better ones had 5 or 6. But if I wanted that then I wouldn't be waiting for CP2077 in the first place; I'd be waiting for Soulcaliber VI. Now, if they could turn that 16 into 20 then I'd have a different opinion, but given how many console games fail at non-combat controls even with 14 buttons used for non-combat things, it's going to be hard to convince me that consoles have enough buttons to combine W3 with MK5.

All the more reason for K.I.S.S.
Needless complication is NOT a virtue.

Get rid of the "weapon reload" button everyone uses constantly. When your mag runs dry have the character do the reload animation. At the end of combat assume the character reloads their weapons so everything is ready for the next fight.

In W3 Geralt automatically drew, and sheathed his weapons when combat started/ended, there's another unnecessary button.

Inventory management can be greatly simplified by not having "junk loot" in the game.

Apparently they have a "InstaHeal" inhaler in the game (we're apparently stuck with magical healing, which I'll admit is better then the regeneration we see in most shooters), if they stick to CP2020 and don't add more and more "hit points" every level you need one key for healing because you don't need 5 different levels of healing items.

Etc.

By eliminating many of the gamey standard functions you see in most games you can free up a lot of buttons for other uses.

Which way are you going with that? Are you saying that ranged combat should lose some things that are actually useful for the sake of overly complicating something that should be simple in a game where that thing is only a relatively minor element that a lot of folks wouldn't even really miss? Or are you saying that we should eliminate clip size entirely so that we can actually remove the reload button without causing problems? Maybe retasking it depending on whether you have a ranged or melee weapon equipped would be a better idea than ripping out something many consider vital.

Also, given that drawing a weapon takes time yet RPGs often have some sort of social issue with unsheathed weapons, you really can't get rid of that button. I took too many hits waiting for auto-draw and wasted too much time waiting for auto-sheathe to want that sort of failed mechanic again.

You're also overlooking your own second sentence; Needless complication is NOT a virtue. How badly do we need CP2077 melee to be as detailed as a game that is nothing but melee combat? I think complicating CP2077 that way is quite needless. I think it's overkill. There has to be a middle ground here, and I don't think that that middle ground is to make gunplay or non-combat aspects unplayable for the sake of pleasing a few Street Fighter fans. I feel that that middle ground is better achieved by making melee and ranged combat equal without makign CP2077 more of a fighting game than an open-world RPG.

Junk loot has no real bearing on inventory managment except insofar as junk loot causes clutter when you open up the inventory. Now, are you wanting all enhancements active at all times, or are you thinking that at least some 'ware should be switchable? That takes buttons. Sure, if you want to slow things down, you could do it like MGS did, but that was cumbersome as hell... and CQC still wasn't at the degree of complexity many here seem to want their melee despite that.

CPDR is going to have to do a lot of thinking to make a UI that balance all the elements in a way that is not only playable, but enjoyable. And you aren't going to get that by stripping out things that many consider necessary for stuff that helps one niche aspect. It's a tricky balancing act, and I suspect that no matter which way they go with it, a lot of folks will be unhappy.

 

[BaalNergal]

I don't recall EVER saying it never happened.
Only that it's very VERY rare.

I never said it wasn't rare, though "very rare" is a relic of warfare that mostly no longer exists. Armies are not building trenches and shooting at each other over an empty wasteland anymore.

And, it does go to show soldiers are taught melee combat with the expectation they will use it.

 

[jervi]

And, it does go to show soldiers are taught melee combat with the expectation they will use it.

Uncle Sam taught me all sorts of skills I never used!

 

[EngryEngineer]

Definitely not.
But far to many gamers expect melee, they HAVE to include it.

I'd just like to see them do so in a relatively realistic manner, the way it's done in CP2020.
But frankly I don't expect it. CP2020 is far to lethal to permit significant amounts of melee/unarmed. Sure, there ARE situations where it's viable, and damn useful. But as your primary combat method?
No.

I think you and I have very different interpretations of CP2020's realism, monowhips & wired reflexes don't scream realism to me. On the other hand I agree with you on the point that CP2020 is super lethal, but instead of saying it is too lethal to permit significant amounts of melee I'd say it is too lethal to permit many head-to-head battles at a range. No way a group of runners is making it far without nearly exclusively using guerrilla & ninja tactics.

Most engagements that are at a range & environment that would discourage closing with a melee rush are likely to be somewhat prolonged affairs of trading fire under varying degrees of cover, and prolonged engagements are a great way to get flanked by multiple high threat response teams. That sentiment is specific to the mechanics in CP2020 & not real life, running down a shooter over 6m of corridor isn't a great experience in CP, but I'd imagine is much less pleasant IRL when not bound to per round actions and initiative phases.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I don't really need melee combat to be anything but a simple [direction]+click for attack where character skill determines attack speed and penetration (meaning that even if you pulled off a succesful attack that connects, if your character has low enough corresponding skill and low BODY, the hit might just bounce off the enemy -- although, if your weapon has additional componets for damage, like electricity, it'll go through inspite not doing any physical damage).

Forward+attack for chop
Left/right+attack for swing (respectively to direction)
Backwards+attack for uppercut
Stationary+attack for stab
Press and hold attack for powerstrike (the more you hold, the harder the hit... within the limits of what the character is capable of) respective to directional cue.

Different attacks being more powerful for different weapons (i.e. a stiletto and a taser are good for stabbing, a baton is good for chopping, a katana for slashing, brass knuckles for uppercut, etc...).

Something along those lines. I don't really need it to be fast and fluid, just functional and heavily impacted by character build. Then again, the same would go for gun combat.

 

[Snowflakez]

Ahhh..really no, it's not. That viability will depend on lots of things - time to production, difficulty setting, how many times you want to reload your game, etc.

Playing Dark Souls with a dagger is viable - but not for me.

So we don't know to what degree melee will be viable or what that means, presuming CDPR keeps to that plan in the next couple years.

I mean... Yes, it is. There's a full melee system, and players won't be restricted to guns only. Just because there's caveats, or it's harder, doesn't make it non-viable. :unsure: As long as it's not Super Meat Boy levels of hard, that is.

It's as viable as you want to make it. People already ran around on walls and dropped on people in the demo, in what sounded like a pretty hectic combat situation. Slow down time with drugs, utilize stealth, hacking and your own wits... Yeah. Viable.

*shrug* If people want to play the game almost exclusively melee, I'm sure they'll be able to, whatever anybody else (aside from CDPR) says. That's why there's a melee system, and not "melee encounters."

 

[4meg]

I'm not asking what you think is realistic, I'm asking whether or not you think CDPR is implementing melee specifically to please a portion of their audience. In other words, are they just pandering for sales?

Me... I don't think so. I think they're doing it because this is a video game and melee combat is fun in general, so maybe they want to do it because they think it'll make for a better game.

Melee has always been a part of any cyberpunk setting. To produce a game without it would be completely wrong. I may not want to focus on melee combat, but if it wasn't there I'd miss it.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

If people want to play the game almost exclusively melee, I'm sure they'll be able to

Sure, and they should be able to have fun, but they shouldn't be able to get over every obstacle (every mission, every fight...) by going that route. The game shouldn't be servile to the player like that.

The same goes for guns, but to lesser extent (and more specific situations) for obvious reasons.

 

[Snowflakez]

Sure, and they should be able to have fun, but they shouldn't be able to get over every obstacle (every mission, every fight...) by going that route. The game shouldn't be servile to the player like that.

The same goes for guns, but to lesser extent (and more specific situations) for obvious reasons.

You and I will agree on that. More specifically, in my case, I don't want combat to be the best solution for every encounter in the game. Diplomacy should actually be preferable in some cases (As it is in real life), and stealth should be preferable in others.

But, of the combat encounters in the game, as long as the game doesn't literally say "You can't use melee weapons," melee weapons will very likely be viable. I'm trying to think of an in-game reason they wouldn't be, and all I can come up with is "enemies shooting at you."

But... Remember - we have drugs to huff that can slow down time, as well as the ability to run on walls (and hook into them), hack enemy weapons, etc. Realistic? Perhaps not. But these elements are in the game and probably aren't going anywhere. We also know we have drugs that can restore life.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I'm trying to think of an in-game reason they wouldn't be, and all I can come up with is "enemies shooting at you."

Is that not enough?

The in game meaning of the drug is that it alters your perception and speed (and I'm not even sure about speed... it doesn't sound... natural) to some degree (it doesn't "really" slow down time for you), but no amount of slow mo wall climbing will shield you from a hail of bullets if there's enough distance to cover... or should not.

 

[Snowflakez]

Is that not enough?

The in game meaning of the drug is that it alters your perception and speed to some degree (it doesn't "really" slow down time for you), but no amount of slow mo wall climbing will shield you from a hail of bullets if there's enough distance to cover... or should not.

I'm not arguing preference here.

We're arguing what is in the game, and what is not.

Based on my understanding of the mechanic, as well as similar systems in other games, it seems like time will slow down enough for the player to quite easily dodge past enemy fire.

Whether or not it should? That's a different topic. But whether or not it will... that's what I'm discussing.

2077 probably shouldn't let players run on walls. Or slow down time (regardless of the in-game justification, time is being slowed, but the player's reflexes are as sharp as ever). But it will.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Based on my understanding of the mechanic, as well as similar systems in other games, it seems like time will slow down enough for the player to quite easily dodge past enemy fire.

That sounds pretty bad and it's a pity if it is in like that, for that purpose: easily dodging enemy bullets to get close enough to pummel them. I'm sorry. Bullet dodging is just something out of place here.


Buuut, if that's how it works, then that's how it works.

 

[4meg]

I'm not arguing preference here.

We're arguing what is in the game, and what is not.

Based on my understanding of the mechanic, as well as similar systems in other games, it seems like time will slow down enough for the player to quite easily dodge past enemy fire.

Whether or not it should? That's a different topic. But whether or not it will... that's what I'm discussing.

2077 probably shouldn't let players run on walls. Or slow down time (regardless of the in-game justification, time is being slowed, but the player's reflexes are as sharp as ever). But it will.

The idea of slowing down time feels wrong. Boosting reflexes would make it seem like time is slower, I get that. And perhaps you might slide past a bullet or two, sometimes, but Matrix-style bullet dodging should be impossible. At least I hope it is.

Now a vat grown, cybernetically enhanced and boosted ninja might look like s/he's dodging your bullets, but in reality they're observing your stance and angle and gun motion and knowing where you will shoot next. It looks like magic, but it's down to training and experience.

 

[Rawls]

To me personally it sounded more like Adrenalin Rush in ME3 than true bullet time.

 

[Snowflakez]

To me personally it sounded more like Adrenalin Rush in ME3 than true bullet time.

I only just started ME2 a couple nights ago, so I haven't hit ME3 yet (by the by, ME1 was really fun! Actually better in some ways than 2), could you describe it in more detail?

To @kofeiiniturpa and @4meg:

Yeah, I also don't really want bullet dodging. That's not really how I enjoy playing melee characters anyway. I would prefer to dive in and out of cover, try to flank around, and use my wits (and melee) to take on baddies. I don't get much pleasure out of pseudo-god-mode, even if it's for a limited time.

I want it to be hard. I want to be forced to improvise and figure out ways to manipulate my enemies or my environment.

Of course, I don't have any plans to play a melee-only character. I'm just saying I'd like it to be possible to use (As in, the game doesn't "force" you to only use guns) in most combat scenarios, if not all. Guns are fun.

 

[4meg]

I only just started ME2 a couple nights ago, so I haven't hit ME3 yet (by the by, ME1 was really fun! Actually better in some ways than 2), could you describe it in more detail?

To @kofeiiniturpa and @4meg:

Yeah, I also don't really want bullet dodging. That's not really how I enjoy playing melee characters anyway. I would prefer to dive in and out of cover, try to flank around, and use my wits (and melee) to take on baddies. I don't get much pleasure out of pseudo-god-mode, even if it's for a limited time.

I want it to be hard. I want to be forced to improvise and figure out ways to manipulate my enemies or my environment.

I want this as well. I would hate to get bored because everything was too easy once I had a few implants or such. CDPR should pile on the pressure right from the start, so that if you manage to survive for any length of time you can look back and say 'Yeah, I made it through and it was totally worth it.'