My take on why this game failed so hard, despite how good Witcher 3 was

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Kind of disagree.

From White Orchard you get dumped (via Vizima) into Velen. From Velen, if you've played the game before and know your way around, you can go straight across Velen and over the Pontar to Novigrad, but playing your first time through it will take a while to find a way across the river. You cannot go directly from Velen to Skellige at all - there isn't actually a sea route. So you have to go via Novigrad to get to Skellige. As far as I know you can't get to Kaer Morhen at all from any of the other maps, you can only get jumped there after finding Ciri, so you have to do Skellige before you can do Kaer Morhen.

It isn't as linear as @SigilFey is suggesting, but it also is more linear than you are.

Writing branching plots is extremely hard. When we wrote 'Birth, and Virgins', I think I wrote four endings for the main NPC:
  1. She could have an abortion and go to Vizima to become a priestess, as she wanted;
  2. She could have the baby and marry the elven blacksmith, as he wanted;
  3. She could have the baby and got to Vizima but not to become a priestess, because she obviously wasn't a virgin;
  4. ...and I'm pretty sure there was another abortion ending which I can't remember now;
  5. And of course she could commit suicide as she'd been planning all along, but that's a failure ending.
When we launched it, we thought it was solid; but a lot of users reported bugs.
Yep. Never stated otherwise. But it can be done. You don't need to do quests that solves velen or novigrad to go to skelige. And dialogues respond to that. CP does it to, but on much smaller scale. For example i had killed woodman after first meeting. Later Judy said that we have to kill him. And he spawned.... had to do it again. You can't save saul before meeting with panam and many more. One of the few exception i saw was quest with River, if i visited the farm before there is dialog about visiting it before. But in many cases before a quest there is just nothing. So with my comparison i said that TW3 had the same structure as CP and did it much better. Not that it was great in that regard, comparing to dragon age or other games.
 
CP didn't fail. However, the reason you are disappointed is that they took that experience with Witcher 3 and did little beyond it. CP is basically Witcher 3 set in 2077 with a first person view and combat system. Every other aspect is almost unchanged. Go back and play that game. You'll see it.
 
CP didn't fail. However, the reason you are disappointed is that they took that experience with Witcher 3 and did little beyond it. CP is basically Witcher 3 set in 2077 with a first person view and combat system. Every other aspect is almost unchanged. Go back and play that game. You'll see it.
To be honest, even the combat system isn't much changed. That's not necessarily a bad thing, The Witcher III version of RedEngine is a good engine. But I had been hoping for more innovation.
 
You speak untrue. Witcher and CP has the same structure. With CP you can go, yes first with Hellman, alt , takemura and all variation of these 3. But the same with Wicher, you can go first to Novigrad or skellige then velen on the very end. And as the same as in witcher you need these 3 things to advance a plot. In CP you as well can't go on the very first minute to arasaka, take care of yorinobu or attack arasaka on lvl 3. If you try to take Adam smasher on first encouter end defeat him, game bugges out and you can't advance anymore.

Not at all -- totally different structure:
Yes, I can go do the Keira Metz part before I do the Bloody Baron part. But the Keira Metz quest must occur. I cannot skip it. The Bloody Baron quest must occur. I cannot skip it. I must deal with the Crones. The outcomes will always lead me directly to Novigraad next. I can't continue the story until I do. I will always have to deal with Dijkstra. Yes, I can choose which of the paths to take to get to Junior, but I must find him to move on. I can choose who to support. I must meet Yennifer in Skellige to track down the clues that will lead to Uma, the discovery of Avallac'h, and ultimately lead to Ciri. I can choose who to support as the new ruler of Skellige, but I must complete that section before moving on. I must go to the Isle of Mists and find Ciri. Yes, I can opt to visit places to seek help for the winter attack from various characters, but I must complete the battle of Kaer Morhen. I must then set out with Ciri to begin preparing for the Nilfgaard invasion and the final confrontation with the hunt. I will always have to do the jumping between worlds thing with Avallac'h. Etc. All the way to the endgame.

^ That is the plot structure for TW3. It's completely linear from beginning to end, the key events paced specifically, character development very scripted, and conclusion of events forgone. What can be altered are the outcomes for the final cutscene, and some of the finer details about how certain sequences play out (like whether XYZ NPC is there for the battle of KM or not...or whether Gerlat fights the Crones or Ciri does...etc.)

Now, CP2077 is totally different.

Prologue:
You can choose 3 different life-paths, which begin with 3 different openings, in 3 different places, with 3 different narratives of how you and Jackie came to be partners.

Act 1 - The heist to get the shard:
Almost directly linear with a lot of character building options and ongoing side content that players can use to develop their personal take on who V is, gather some loot, and ultimately get the shard. This is the part that is linear in structure, like TW3.

Act 2 - Figuring out what to do about Johnny:
The story branches off completely depending on what V chooses to do. As pointed out earlier, I was inaccurate in a detail -- yes, you must go and meet with Takemura at the diner to learn about your options...and then you have numerous possible pathways through the game.
You can choose to work with Takemura, or you can refuse.
You can choose to join Judy and track down Evelyn, or you can refuse.
You can head out to find Hellman, or not.
You can opt to follow Johnny's quests, or you can say no.
For each choice you make, the game will offer additional missions along that line.
Based on what you choose to do or not do, different pathways to the endgame will either open or close.
You can follow only one questline, or you can switch to one of the other lanes at pretty much any point. Basically, you role-play the options. Does V know who s/he trusts? How do they choose to resolve their chosen path? Why? All of that is up to the player, and no one, particular path or structure is required to reach the endgame content.

Act 3 - Johnny and V's final fate:
How do you resolve your situation? (Technically, this is a juncture that offers players the ability to switch into any of the other lanes. The mechanic may seem too convenient, but structurally it remains just as diverse and meaningful as the players chosen path to get to that point. I would argue having this ability is irrelevant because it is going to be a decision made based on what the player has / has not experienced up to that point, and the outcomes will be markedly different.)

Regardless of whether players liked the approach, that is simply not the same structure as a game like TW3. That is a lot of different ways to get to an end that need to be individually accounted for.


I know that it is your job to defend CP,but let's be real. This game is much more linear that TW3, there is no "Choose your adventure" as you beatifuly described it. It's do this, or not do. Sometimes there is some kind of choice that brings nothing to the main story. Maybe you can tell me, what changed after first meeting with alt? What changed when you chose Netwatch agent over voodoboys? What effect it had? And it is main story line mission. Nothing did. You get info from alt that her solution is to flatline V and make copy of her. And V asks "Wait so you have to kill me to save me? " and it is brushed over "yea small details , we have solution let's go with it". Masterpiece 10/10 ! What changed after judy arc? What is result of V actions? Under Maiko , dolls have it the same, after killing Maiko there is revenge from tigers claws and everything stays the same. The only choices that somehow matters are with Takemura and Panam. Panam questline is fun and propably one of the few saving graces of cyberpunk. But it would be so much better to just admit that it is linear game and from that point move on. Because the main story is immersive, is fun, combat need polish, many otherthings too but do not give this PR magic that happened before realease and effects we have now.

I'm not going to talk about horrible endings and problems with them as there is tread the biggest one i think, and a few long comments from me to.

But best wishes neverless !

I am absolutely not required to defend CDPR. These are my thoughts based on my own experience with the game.

Watch:
I think the glaring issues with the game are just that: "glaring". There are many parts that seem lackluster or half-baked. Not a big fan of the inventory system. Combat felt quite shallow, despite the variety of weapons, skills, and gear. Really wish there were better controls for mouse-and-keyboard -- I really don't like using a controller for first-person games. The way traffic and stuff works is just...downright bad in many areas.

However, none of that ruined my experience for the reasons I was playing the game: a role-playing experience that created a deeply engaging theme with magnificent motivation and a totally awesome world with cool characters and meaningful choice / consequence. All of which is an illusion. For any game.

When it comes down to it, any game that offers any level of choice begins with "yes / no". Any game offering any level of choice is limited to certain pathways being gated open / closed based on the player's choice. And every game will always be ultimately linear to some degree. If I have 25 different endings, I still need to code a line to each one from beginning to end. (A computer can't make stuff up as it goes.) From the way you're insisting this is linear, I'm afraid you will never find a game in creation that is non-linear...and also offers a story. In order for there to be a story structure, there must be a beginning, middle, and end. If that arc doesn't exist, no story. Non-linear in a story-based game means different pathways to the end. If I create a sandbox game where the player can just do whatever, whenever...then there's absolutely 0% chance of having a narrative, detailed characters, motivations, and resolutions. A sandbox either has a linear "story mode" or it relies on emergent story-telling, as exists in games like Minecraft, Mount and Blade, or Rust.

But, we can let it lie if you want! (And, I liked the Panam questline, as well. That's where I wound up in the end. :) )
 
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Not at all -- totally different structure:
Yes, I can go do the Keira Metz part before I do the Bloody Baron part. But the Keira Metz quest must occur. I cannot skip it. The Bloody Baron quest must occur. I cannot skip it. I must deal with the Crones. The outcomes will always lead me directly to Novigraad next. I can't continue the story until I do. I will always have to deal with Dijkstra. Yes, I can choose which of the paths to take to get to Junior, but I must find him to move on. I can choose who to support. I must meet Yennifer in Skellige to track down the clues that will lead to Uma, the discovery of Avallac'h, and ultimately lead to Ciri. I can choose who to support as the new ruler of Skellige, but I must complete that section before moving on. I must go to the Isle of Mists and find Ciri. Yes, I can opt to visit places to seek help for the winter attack from various characters, but I must complete the battle of Kaer Morhen. I must then set out with Ciri to begin preparing for the Nilfgaard invasion and the final confrontation with the hunt. I will always have to do the jumping between worlds thing with Avallac'h. Etc. All the way to the endgame.

^ That is the plot structure for TW3. It's completely linear from beginning to end, the key events paced specifically, character development very scripted, and conclusion of events forgone. What can be altered are the outcomes for the final cutscene, and some of the finer details about how certain sequences play out (like whether XYZ NPC is there for the battle of KM or not...or whether Gerlat fights the Crones or Ciri does...etc.)

Now, CP2077 is totally different.

Prologue:
You can choose 3 different life-paths, which begin with 3 different openings, in 3 different places, with 3 different narratives of how you and Jackie came to be partners.

Act 1 - The heist to get the shard:
Almost directly linear with a lot of character building options and ongoing side content that players can use to develop their personal take on who V is, gather some loot, and ultimately get the shard. This is the part that is linear in structure, like TW3.

Act 2 - Figuring out what to do about Johnny:
The story branches off completely depending on what V chooses to do. As pointed out earlier, I was inaccurate in a detail -- yes, you must go and meet with Takemura at the diner to learn about your options...and then you have numerous possible pathways through the game.
You can choose to work with Takemura, or you can refuse.
You can choose to join Judy and track down Evelyn, or you can refuse.
You can head out to find Hellman, or not.
You can opt to follow Johnny's quests, or you can say no.
For each choice you make, the game will offer additional missions along that line.
Based on what you choose to do or not do, different pathways to the endgame will either open or close.
You can follow only one questline, or you can switch to one of the other lanes at pretty much any point. Basically, you role-play the options. Does V know who s/he trusts? How do they choose to resolve their chosen path? Why? All of that is up to the player, and no one, particular path or structure is required to reach the endgame content.

Act 3 - Johnny and V's final fate:
How do you resolve your situation? (Technically, this is a juncture that offers players the ability to switch into any of the other lanes. The mechanic may seem too convenient, but structurally it remains just as diverse and meaningful as the players chosen path to get to that point. I would argue having this ability is irrelevant because it is going to be a decision made based on what the player has / has not experienced up to that point, and the outcomes will be markedly different.)

Regardless of whether players liked the approach, that is simply not the same structure as a game like TW3. That is a lot of different ways to get to an end that need to be individually accounted for.
From what i remember you cannot refuse takamura. You have to do his quest. The same with Helman and voodoboys. You cannot refuse because you will not advance the plot. If you do takemura quests only, in a certain point you will not be able to continue, he will not call you until you do the rest. And takemura is required to advance. So i don't see this branching that you speak of. And refusing is not really "branching" it's just not doing. The same was with Witcher. You can go to velen first, or to novigrad or to skellige. Yes that order of doing things is recommended but not requied. You can do the opposite and game will acknowledge it. When you talk about judy, johnny they are just like quest of triss or yennefer with jin, not required. Judy will give you quest as LI, the same Yennefer. So TW3 was the same, you did something and was offered another quest after it. The only difference I see is the quest quality got a big step backwards towards TW3.

And if you do all things before "rooftoop" decision you will have pretty much exacly the same world like any other player. The only difference that can be is if you didn't complete panam or johnny side missions locking you out from endings. Again calling not doing quest branching IMO is a strech. Another difference between TW3 is how where the decisions happen. Rooftoop or like with TW3 how you approuch Ciri problems. So IMO TW3 did this things better.

I am absolutely not required to defend CDPR. These are my thoughts based on my own experience with the game.

Watch:
I think the glaring issues with the game are just that: "glaring". There are many parts that seem lackluster or half-baked. Not a big fan of the inventory system. Combat felt quite shallow, despite the variety of weapons, skills, and gear. Really wish there were better controls for mouse-and-keyboard -- I really don't like using a controller for first-person games. The way traffic and stuff works is just...downright bad in many areas.

However, none of that ruined my experience for the reasons I was playing the game: a role-playing experience that created a deeply engaging theme with magnificent motivation and a totally awesome world with cool characters and meaningful choice / consequence. All of which is an illusion. For any game.

When it comes down to it, any game that offers any level of choice begins with "yes / no". Any game offering any level of choice is limited to certain pathways being gated open / closed based on the player's choice. And every game will always be ultimately linear to some degree. If I have 25 different endings, I still need to code a line to each one from beginning to end. (A computer can't make stuff up as it goes.) From the way you're insisting this is linear, I'm afraid you will never find a game in creation that is non-linear...and also offers a story. In order for there to be a story structure, there must be a beginning, middle, and end. If that arc doesn't exist, no story. Non-linear in a story-based game means different pathways to the end. If I create a sandbox game where the player can just do whatever, whenever...then there's absolutely 0% chance of having a narrative, detailed characters, motivations, and resolutions. A sandbox either has a linear "story mode" or it relies on emergent story-telling, as exists in games like Minecraft, Mount and Blade, or Rust.

But, we can let it lie if you want! (And, I liked the Panam questline, as well. That's where I wound up in the end. :) )
Never asked for a sandbox. I was just hoping that CDPR will stay true to their word about this "branching" story line and getting a good game. I don't deny that there are good parts, immersion, great story(Besides endings , they are terrible) , great characters, great MC , V is probably my fourth favourite character right now of all games I played(and seeing how was she treated in the endings ughrr....) . City is just gorgeous, at night specially. That's why i think it is important to know where mistakes were made, but what went well as well ;] (Balance is tipping heavily, like really heavily on the former tho ;D)
 
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Act 2 - Figuring out what to do about Johnny:
The story branches off completely depending on what V chooses to do. As pointed out earlier, I was inaccurate in a detail -- yes, you must go and meet with Takemura at the diner to learn about your options...and then you have numerous possible pathways through the game.
You can choose to work with Takemura, or you can refuse.
You can choose to join Judy and track down Evelyn, or you can refuse.
You can head out to find Hellman, or not.
You can opt to follow Johnny's quests, or you can say no.
For each choice you make, the game will offer additional missions along that line.
Based on what you choose to do or not do, different pathways to the endgame will either open or close.
You can follow only one questline, or you can switch to one of the other lanes at pretty much any point. Basically, you role-play the options. Does V know who s/he trusts? How do they choose to resolve their chosen path? Why? All of that is up to the player, and no one, particular path or structure is required to reach the endgame content.

Hmm....

This part of your post implies I have the option to track down Evelyn and in doing so reach the ending of the game. A distinct pathway would be bypassing Takemura and Hanako entirely after a certain point. This is not what happens.

Finding Hellman doesn't lead anywhere. It's a dead end. Tracking down Evelyn doesn't either. The path is found via agreeing with Takemura and trying to gain an audience with Hanako. Until you set off to get in contact with her you cannot progress the story (meeting with Oda/Takemura at docks). Until you finally gain an audience with her the game goes nowhere (sneaking into her float thing with Takemura).

The Johnny arc is a set of side-quests. They're largely self-contained. From a structure standpoint it's utterly irrelevant until the last mission in the game. This is true for the Nomads, Judy, all of it.

Different endings do open up for participation in many of these side arcs. However, lack of participation costs you the entire side-quest chain and an ending. Participating doesn't alter anything at a structural level beyond giving you a different way to approach the last mission of the game. Some of these endings are derivative of others (they re-use "resources"). Others aren't complete endings by themselves. They revolve around sub-choices made within others (give Johnny body vs keep it).

CP is unquestionably different from TW3. It's not different in the way your post implies though. In TW3 I will always play through a single ending. The influence of my choices on the ending is presented via cutscenes. In CP I can play through a variety of different endings. CP also offers more freedom when it comes to exploration and side-quest engagement.

Beyond these two areas I fail to see how the structure is either revolutionary or remarkably different. It sounds like you're saying the game behaves this way all the way throughout (if this is a misinterpretation, apologies). It does not. Even though it tries very hard to make it appear this way.
 
When it comes down to it, any game that offers any level of choice begins with "yes / no". Any game offering any level of choice is limited to certain pathways being gated open / closed based on the player's choice. And every game will always be ultimately linear to some degree. If I have 25 different endings, I still need to code a line to each one from beginning to end. (A computer can't make stuff up as it goes.) From the way you're insisting this is linear, I'm afraid you will never find a game in creation that is non-linear...and also offers a story. In order for there to be a story structure, there must be a beginning, middle, and end. If that arc doesn't exist, no story. Non-linear in a story-based game means different pathways to the end. If I create a sandbox game where the player can just do whatever, whenever...then there's absolutely 0% chance of having a narrative, detailed characters, motivations, and resolutions. A sandbox either has a linear "story mode" or it relies on emergent story-telling, as exists in games like Minecraft, Mount and Blade, or Rust.

A game offers you a fixed set of mechanisms with which you interact with the world. It may offer you some concrete goals – or it may not. Games like David Braben's Elite, for example, don't set any goals; you just play as you choose. Games like Sid Meier's Civilisation series set a concrete goal (world domination) but a wide variety of paths to reach it. In the best of the series, Alpha Centauri, there are even several different types of victory.

In all these games the story emerges from the interaction between the player and the game world. Games like Meier's Pirates offer you a selection of sub-goals as well as an overall goal, but you can complete as many or as few of those sub-goals as you like and still have an enjoyable experience – I've played that game for literally thousands of hours, and there are still bits of it I've never done because they don't appeal to me. On the other hand I have done 'conquer the entire Carribean for the Dutch', which is a goal I don't suppose Meier ever predicted, because I found it a challenge to see whether it could be done.

By contrast to these games, modern RPGs are highly scripted. Games like Horizon Zero Dawn and Red Dead Redemption, despite being open worlds, give you essentially one story in that world from which you cannot greatly diverge. You can't much affect the end-state (in the case of Red Dead Redemption 2, because it's a prequel, and the events of the game must necessarily leave the world in the state in which the first game found it).

Games in the BioWare tradition – which CD Projekt adopted and built on – still offer tightly scripted stories, but they are more complex with significant branching. The decisions the player makes significantly change the world, but only within the context of predetermined and pre-scripted endings.

But there is no need to have a 'coded line to each different ending', as you suggest. Part of the reason why, in the current state of the art, we mostly do, is because we now expect AAA games to be entirely voice acted. I'm hoping that with the emergence of much more sophisticated text-to-speech systems (in combination with technologies like JALI) we'll be able synthetically to generate persuasive speech, at which not only will much deeper dialogue trees become possible (as they were in Neverwinter Nights, for example), but also procedurally generated dialogue.

So I believe that it is now possible to build a game which has the near-realistic explorable world of games like Witcher III, Cyberpunk, or Red Dead Redemption, as well as having very rich interaction (conversations, dialogue, friendship and loyalty webs) with all NPCs. The challenge then is how to tell stories in such worlds.

To make that happen, we need to give the game system tools to dynamically generate interesting opportunities for action around the player as they move through the world, and further mechanisms to chain together those opportunities for action into persuasive and compelling stories. I believe all this can be done with the technology we have now; I'm working on it. I'm sure that many more energetic and talented people are, too.

So no: to have 25, or 25,000 different endings you don't have to script every one of them. You don't now. We do know how to script games with multiple different endings and we do have confidence that we can create satisfying stories in this way. But we're getting to the point at which we can create sandbox worlds which contain as rich (or richer) character interaction as the best modern RPGs, and I have confidence that we can make satisfying stories in such worlds.

However, Cyberpunk is not such a game and didn't try to be; and you'd be very brave, just now, to try to produce an AAA game that did try to be. They will come, and I look forward to them, but they're not here yet.
 
Later Judy said that we have to kill him. And he spawned.... had to do it again.
Did you defeat him with lethal damage or non-lethal?

Because when I have defeated him with lethal damage (no writhing on the ground - a definite corpse), he has stayed dead and there is dialogue where you can be glad you killed him when you later find out his crimes.

Conversely if I have defeated him and left him alive, I have had to go back with Judy to fix that oversight...

Otherwise I would say you got a bug.
 
Did you defeat him with lethal damage or non-lethal?

Because when I have defeated him with lethal damage (no writhing on the ground - a definite corpse), he has stayed dead and there is dialogue where you can be glad you killed him when you later find out his crimes.

Conversely if I have defeated him and left him alive, I have had to go back with Judy to fix that oversight...

Otherwise I would say you got a bug.
I did a pacifist playthough and i defeated him with non lethal weapon made sure he was still alive on the ground and yet it was considered dead
 
Yes, the cyberpsycho in the badlands, the one in the mech suit – I very carefully defeated him only with non-lethal weapons, which was really hard to do – but he still got counted as dead. I mean, in the real world, if you hit someone hard enough and often enough with a club, there is a risk that they will die. And I suppose it's realistic for the game to count some proportion of attacks with non-lethal weapons as fatal. But, given how bloody hard it was, it still felt unfair!
 
Did you defeat him with lethal damage or non-lethal?

Because when I have defeated him with lethal damage (no writhing on the ground - a definite corpse), he has stayed dead and there is dialogue where you can be glad you killed him when you later find out his crimes.

Conversely if I have defeated him and left him alive, I have had to go back with Judy to fix that oversight...

Otherwise I would say you got a bug.
He got a few cuts from Katana, which left him without a head and a leg. The second time i cut him more badly. Just to make sure he will not get up again ;D

Yep, a bug. Or hard to say. Yesterday i have gone the same route, killed him, and judy said that we have to deal with him. But maiko acknoledged that he is dead. So I will see maybe toomorow if he will be alive again.
 
CP is basically Witcher 3 set in 2077 with a first person view and combat system. Every other aspect is almost unchanged. Go back and play that game. You'll see it.

Not exactly.
They took every bad thing Witcher has to Cyberpunk (silly AI, dead world, clunky city's behavior, lack of interactivity) but they also cut the good things of Witcher, as memorable and nonlinear side quests, lots of unique characters, long enough main story, lots of different kinds of enemies etc.
 
The game hardly failed. It sold a ton of copies, and very few were refunded, so I'd hardly call that a fail. The problem isn't the game per say, it's that they pumped up our expectations so very high, and didn't deliver on those expectations.

the massive sales came at the cost of cdpr's reputation (people didn't expect this mess)
as for expectations, some people had high, true
but most of us expected what they themselves promoted; and they failed on that too
 
The fact there's people in here trying to justify how the game wasn't a failure is insane


I see lots of people throwing the sales figures around, like thats some evidence of success, I didn't realise this forum had CDPR shareholders on it
ROFL
 
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